Sexism

sebastianlieken

Now I have alot of issues with sexism in the "modern" world, but one issue that stands out which I find perticularly unfair is maternity/paternity leave.

In the company where I work, dad's get....*drum roll*..... 1 (one) day of paternity leave. Is there any reasoning as to why the mum gets all of 8 months (?) maternity leave while the dad gets squat?! Why isn't the time split 50:50 between mum and dad?

• This solves the problem of employers looking upon women less favorably due to taking off extended periods of time from work.
  
• It breaks maternity downtime into smaller, more managable chunks for employers.
  
• It means the dad can be just as big a part of the childs upbringing as mum.

My proposal is that mum's get the first 4 months off while dad is in work, and then the option is there for dad's to take the next 4 months off while mum goes back to work.

Would any boardsie dads have appreciated this option?

TheZohanS

Fathers can take Parental Leave. That's up to 14 weeks unpaid leave.

Teyla Emmagan

I suppose if men could breastfeed everything would be a lot easier.

TheZohan

TheZohan wrote: »

Fathers can take Parental Leave. That's up to 14 weeks unpaid leave.

can you claim stamps when your on parental leave then?

Noopti

TheZohan wrote: »

Fathers can take Parental Leave. That's up to 14 weeks unpaid leave.

That is completely different to paternity leave.

And OP: I am pretty sure some Scandinavian countries have a system like the one you propose, and I think it makes a lot of sense.

keano_afc

Sexism is an easy thing to understand. When its directed at women, its sexism. When its directed at men, its "having a laugh".

TheZohanS

Deleted User wrote: »

can you claim stamps when your on parental leave then?

No idea, I don't have any kids but I'm pretty sure if you click the link I posted it's in that.

Batsy

Women, on average, keep working less hours than men, but then they complain that they get paid less than men.

It reminds me of Wimbledon. The male tennis stars play matches of a maximum of five sets. The women play matches of a maximum of three sets. Yet, in the name of "equality", the women players get paid the same as men.

In my view, as the women players do less, they should get paid less than the men. If they are to be paid the same as the men then they should be made to play five-set matches.

Frank Black

Batsy wrote: »

Women, on average, keep working less hours than men, but then they complain that they get paid less than men.

It reminds me of Wimbledon. The male tennis stars play matches of a maximum of five sets. The women play matches of a maximum of three sets. Yet, in the name of "equality", the women players get paid the same as men.

In my view, as the women players do less, they should get paid less than the men. If they are to be paid the same as the men then they should be made to play five-set matches.

Tennis and Paternity Leave - they're the same thing really.

Noopti

So what you are saying is women work less then men, so women should not get as much maternity leave? Or something else?

Having trouble figuring out what point you are trying to make tbh.

Triangla

Woman pops out a kid she's had in her body for the previous 9 months.

Takes a fair bit of time to recover from that physically and emotionally so in my opinion they deserve this time to recover.

If I took 4 months parental leave while my partner went back to work I'd feel like a douchebag.

punk77

TBF, women do carry the child inside them for 9 months. How many men,if it were possible, would be willing to do that?

Oranage2

I think everybody is forgetting that woman go through physical and emotional changes during child birth that med just dont go through and I for one do not want some fat hormonal cow annoying me in the office.

Not sexiest just fair on other staff.

sebastianlieken

yup, and there's car insurance discrimination going out the window at the end of next year, yet my girlfriends think thta's completley unreasonable and unfair.

then there's my girlfriends in college who got grants for doing engineering simply cause they *need* more women in engineering for some reason. (...any guys ever get a grant to do nursing before?)

but I digress...

@ Noopti - what is it you dont get? i'm not saying women work less than men. I think they generally work the same. And if that is indeed the case, then why dont men get the same amount of paternity leave as a woman in order to raise their child.

Dotrel

Batsy wrote: »

In my view, as the women players do less, they should get paid less than the men. If they are to be paid the same as the men then they should be made to play five-set matches.

I'd be even more extreme than that tbh. If women tennis players want to get paid the same as men then they should enter the mens ATP tour. Let them try that for a year and you'll see them all crawling back to their original paycheck when they can't even earn a living from the game anymore.

TheZohanS

Triangla wrote: »

Woman pops out a kid she's had in her body for the previous 9 months.

Takes a fair bit of time to recover from that physically and emotionally so in my opinion they deserve this time to recover.

If I took 4 months parental leave while my partner went back to work I'd feel like a douchebag.

punk77 wrote: »

TBF, women do carry the child inside them for 9 months. How many men,if it were possible, would be willing to do that?

Yeah but lets not forget that women aren't carrying a fully grown baby around inside them for 9 months. At 6 months the baby still only weighs 1 1/2-2lbs.

Batsy

black francis wrote: »

Tennis and Paternity Leave - they're the same thing really.

I'm giving another example of women working less than men but expecting to be paid the same.

jester77

Pretty equal here and up to the parents how to split it. Most of the lads will take the first month off after the birth and then take another couple of months off when the child is a little older.

Noopti

sebastianlieken wrote: »

@ Noopti - what is it you dont get? i'm not saying women work less than men. I think they generally work the same. And if that is indeed the case, then why dont men get the same amount of paternity leave as a woman in order to raise their child.

Sorry, I was referring to the nonsensical post some other guy made about tennis matches!

sebastianlieken

Triangla wrote: »

Takes a fair bit of time to recover from that physically and emotionally so in my opinion they deserve this time to recover.

If I took 4 months parental leave while my partner went back to work I'd feel like a douchebag.

It's called maternity leave for a reason, not recovery leave. It's just a traditional idea that the women look after the baby while the man goes out and puts food on the table. It's done this way becasue it's always been done this way.

And that's fair enough if you didn't want to do that, if you would feel like a douche. that's fine, that's you're call, but that's whay I said there should be an option, not an enforcment. Many women are career driven, they dont want to be left behind! The option would be of mutual benefit.

Batsy

Originally Posted by punk77
TBF, women do carry the child inside them for 9 months. How many men,if it were possible, would be willing to do that?

Men often have to bleed the radiator in the car engine, lay down a patio in the garden, take things out of the loft or unblock the drains.

How many women would be willing to do that?

henryd65

What about adoptive leave. A woman is entitled to avail of this which has the same rights as maternity leave. A man cannot.

kate.m

Batsy wrote: »

Men often have to bleed the radiator in the car engine, lay down a patio in the garden, take things out of the loft or unblock the drains.

How many women would be willing to do that?

Lots. Because it's physically possible.
Look I agree that it should be fair and that there seriously needs to be an increase in paternity leave, just your comparisons don't make sense.

Also, bleeding a radiator? Not that difficult.

desertcircus

Batsy wrote: »

Men often have to bleed the radiator in the car engine, lay down a patio in the garden, take things out of the loft or unblock the drains.

How many women would be willing to do that?

My parents split when I was seven and my mother did every one of those things until my brother and I were old enough to do them. Are you seriously being that sexist, or are you joking?

sebastianlieken

kate.m wrote: »

Lots. Because it's physically possible.
Look I agree that it should be fair and that there seriously needs to be an increase in paternity leave, just your comparisons don't make sense.

Also, bleeding a radiator? Not that difficult.

ach I think some people may be hitting the wrong note in being over defensive in asserting their point. The point is, equality is very main-stream these days, women can do everything a guy can do, but don't forget that the opposite therefore also has to be true! Does a dad not have a right to raise his kid in equal quantity as his mum?

kate.m

sebastianlieken wrote: »

ach I think some people may be hitting the wrong note in being over defensive in asserting their point. The point is, equality is very main-stream these days, women can do everything a guy can do, but don't forget that the opposite therefore also has to be true! Does a dad not have a right to raise his kid in equal quantity as his mum?

As I said above, yeah he should. It should be equal. I don't disagree. I don't know maybe if it was 4 months each, the first four for the whole post pregnancy recovery thing. I don't know how it would work, but I didn't say or state the dad has less right!

Frank Black

Batsy wrote: »

I'm giving another example of women working less than men but expecting to be paid the same.

Please tell us Batsy how many new born children you have looked after and for how long - I assure you as a man, there were times I was very glad to be heading into an office rather than being left at home - the fact you portray maternity leave as 'working less' exposes your own ignorance as to what is actually involved.

Even if I was to skip over your insulting terminology and just look at it from an economic viewpoint, you'd still be wrong - you see society needs children, they're the future consumers and they're the future workers who'll be paying for your old age pension.

So basically your suggestion that women should be paid less because they take maternity leave is wrong legally, morally and logically.

robman60

Just another example of sexism towards men that is pretty much ignored.

Personally, I believe sexism has gone full circle, where it's seen as fine to slander men "for the craic", but if something is directed at women "for the craic" it's immediately seen as sexism.

I swear it's everywhere. For example, every so often I see that feckin' mothers and babies magazine. Surely Parents and babies would be much more appropriate? If it were called fathers and babies there'd be a big deal about that.

Finally, the dumbest example is the proposition that women should be given a certain number of Dail seats. People want the best people doing the job, male or female. Surely if women wanted lots more women they'd vote for one. I doubt there are any constituencies where no women ran in the last election.

It's time each gender stopped blaming the other gender, women don't have any more insight than men, even if Midday on TV3 or any of those ****ty programmes suggest they do.

Abi

keano_afc wrote: »

Sexism is an easy thing to understand. When its directed at women, its sexism. When its directed at men, its "having a laugh".

Didnt take long for the woman-bashing to kick in, did it?

punk77 wrote: »

TBF, women do carry the child inside them for 9 months. How many men,if it were possible, would be willing to do that?

Yeah, but .. but... it's not fair!!!

*folds arms*



































What fucking next? :rolleyes:

Batsy

kate.m wrote: »

Lots. Because it's physically possible.

And if it was physically possible for men to get pregnant then I suspect that lots of men would be willing to get pregnant.

Look I agree that it should be fair and that there seriously needs to be an increase in paternity leave, just your comparisons don't make sense.

My comparisons do make sense.

Women want loads of time off in maternity leave when they have a baby. And, overall, women work less hours than men on average. A lot of this would be to do with all the maternity leave that women get.

Yet women complain that they get paid less than men and demand the same wages.

This is what happens at Wimbledon. Women players work less than men but get paid the same as the men. In my view, they work less at Wimbledon so should be paid less.

Also, bleeding a radiator? Not that difficult.

Getting pregnant isn't that difficult, either.

irelandrover

black francis wrote: »

Please tell us Batsy how many new born children you have looked after and for how long - I assure you as a man, there were times I was very glad to be heading into an office rather than being left at home - the fact you portray maternity leave as 'working less' exposes your own ignorance as to what is actually involved.

Even if I was to skip over your insulting terminology and just look at it from an economic viewpoint, you'd still be wrong - you see society needs children, they're the future consumers and they're the future workers who'll be paying for your old age pension.

So basically your suggestion that women should be paid less because they take maternity leave is wrong legally, morally and logically.

I think Mothers should be entitled to the 8 months or whatever it is. But men should get more than 1 day. How about you also answer the issue about women getting maternity leave when they adopt? Any argument about the woman needing time for their body to recover does not apply there and it is very clear sexism against men.

Batsy

black francis wrote: »

Please tell us Batsy how many new born children you have looked after and for how long

It'd be impossible for me to ever look after newborn children because, unlike if I was a woman, I'd get almost no paternity leave. I wouldn't have any chance to look after a newborn child because I'd be having to work for my money. A woman is able to stay at home and look after a child and she'd probably get paid for doing so. But a man has no rights to take such a long time off work even if he has a child. He is give much less time off work to look after a child. So you can hardly blame men for not staying at home looking after the children.

So basically your suggestion that women should be paid less because they take maternity leave is wrong legally, morally and logically.

Men, on average, work longer hours than women. One reason for this is that men are not able to take months off work to look after babies as women are able to do so. Women work less hours than men and that is why, on average, they get paid less. And so they should be if they are working less.

kate.m

robman60 wrote: »

Just another example of sexism towards men that is pretty much ignored.

Personally, I believe sexism has gone full circle, where it's seen as fine to slander men "for the craic", but if something is directed at women "for the craic" it's immediately seen as sexism.

I swear it's everywhere. For example, every so often I see that feckin' mothers and babies magazine. Surely Parents and babies would be much more appropriate? If it were called fathers and babies there'd be a big deal about that.

Finally, the dumbest example is the proposition that women should be given a certain number of Dail seats. People want the best people doing the job, male or female. Surely if women wanted lots more women they'd vote for one. I doubt there are any constituencies where no women ran in the last election.

It's time each gender stopped blaming the other gender, women don't have any more insight than men, even if Midday on TV3 or any of those ****ty programmes suggest they do.

First off, the magazine should be called parents and babies, maybe it's just outdated. Hardly sexism though. It's just aimed at women, there is probably another magazine out there aimed at men. Still It should be parents and babies. Agree there.

As for the dail thing I agree, people will vote who's best. Male or female. Shouldn't matter.

No one thinks women have more or less insight, don't watch those twats on tv3. They're usually really uninformed anyway. Why would you watch what you call. ****ty anyway. They don't prove and can't claim to be right anyway.

As for the first comment I totally disagree. Different experiences maybe.

number10a

Letting the couple themselves decide is without a doubt the best way forward. Every single household in Ireland is different. So one formula (mother gets time off), or even two formulas (mother gets half the time, dad gets half the time; or mother gets all the time) is not sufficient to allow the family to work the best way they want to/need to.

Quite often now in Ireland, the woman earns more because they are, on average, better educated, plus we have a big glut of excess construction workers now working in sectors they aren't specialised/experienced in, thereby resulting in a lower wage. So every family should be allowed to decide how they want those eight months. One for mum, seven for dad. Eight for mum, none for dad. Four each, etc. Regardless of who is off work, it's a State-paid benefit (for the most part) so it doesn't really make a difference either way to the government coffers.

Batsy

number10a wrote: »

Quite often now in Ireland, the woman earns more because they are, on average, better educated

Women are only better educated than men because the education system nowadays is skewed in girls' and women's favour.

holystungun9

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

I suppose if men could breastfeed everything would be a lot easier.

If men had breasts, the last thing they would do with them is breastfeed.

Johnny Bitte

Seen lots of new mums and dads in my my dept over the years, dads are walking zombie's the first 2-3 months after the babies born.

One guy was shipped off to another country 4 days after his second was born.

Jimoslimos

Batsy wrote: »

Women, on average, keep working less hours than men, but then they complain that they get paid less than men.

It reminds me of Wimbledon. The male tennis stars play matches of a maximum of five sets. The women play matches of a maximum of three sets. Yet, in the name of "equality", the women players get paid the same as men.

In my view, as the women players do less, they should get paid less than the men. If they are to be paid the same as the men then they should be made to play five-set matches.

I'm pretty sure Usain Bolt gets paid way more for the 100m sprint than Gebraisaillaise (don't correct - I know it's wrong!) for the 10,000m - not fair! UB should be made to run a further 9900m for his pay cheque

number10a

Batsy wrote: »

Women are only better educated than men because the education system nowadays is skewed in girls' and women's favour.

How? I'm a guy and I am better educated that most people I know, men and women. If the education system was skewed towards women, I shouldn't have gotten the qualifications I have. More women tend to stay on in the education system than men. Simple as that. After 21 years in the Irish education system, I cannot think of a single subject or course where I felt hard done by because I was male.

By the way, where in Bolton did you get that wonderful insight into Irish education that you seem to have?

Hangballlouie

kate.m wrote: »

First off, the magazine should be called parents and babies, maybe it's just outdated. Hardly sexism though. It's just aimed at women, there is probably another magazine out there aimed at men. Still It should be parents and babies. Agree there.
As for the dail thing I agree, people will vote who's best. Male or female. Shouldn't matter. No one thinks women have more or less insight, don't watch those twats on tv3. They're usually really uninformed anyway. Why would you watch what you call. ****ty anyway. They don't prove and can't claim to be right anyway.
As for the first comment I totally disagree. Different experiences maybe.

Stop making sense and make me a sandwich.

sebastianlieken

Abi wrote: »

Didnt take long for the woman-bashing to kick in, did it?





Yeah, but .. but... it's not fair!!!

*folds arms*



































What fucking next? :rolleyes:

atrophy :P </joke>

ScumLord

TheZohan wrote: »

Yeah but lets not forget that women aren't carrying a fully grown baby around inside them for 9 months. At 6 months the baby still only weighs 1 1/2-2lbs.

Yes but they do have a growing parasite inside them that will demand more and more and more off them as they grow bigger and bigger, it takes a huge toll, women regularly died during child birth it's such a physically draining task.

There's also the unavoidable point that in general women are better at raising children, they're physically adapted to it. As much as we would like equality men and women are different and that's a good thing, women in general are good at what men are bad at and visa versa.

Men should get more leave though, we have the most to learn and it will be more difficult for us to learn it as we don't have the natural drive a woman would have for it.

busyliving

The level of inequality for a great many things is very annoying and unfair...

But one thing I've seen in my previous job, has been women milking their pregnancy...not able to do their normal tasks, and using it as an excuse to not be able to work Fridays or weekends...

But going off topic here, women got paid the same as me, but didn't do any kind of lifting...all heavy lifting was done by me and even moderate lifting my me while, so I and a few of the other male staff did extra duties and the women got paid the same as us, very unequal system...And its why if I ever run or own a business I'll never employ a women...and if i do she will be too old to have kids

Sorry for going off topic on my rant:D

kate.m

hangballlouie wrote: »

Stop making sense and make me a sandwich.[/

...is it bad you're the third person today to tell me that?

*mutters angrily under breath and goes to make sandwich*....:rolleyes:

Frank Black

busyliving wrote: »

The level of inequality for a great many things is very annoying and unfair...

But one thing I've seen in my previous job, has been women milking their pregnancy...not able to do their normal tasks, and using it as an excuse to not be able to work Fridays or weekends...

But going off topic here, women got paid the same as me, but didn't do any kind of lifting...all heavy lifting was done by me and even moderate lifting my me while, so I and a few of the other male staff did extra duties and the women got paid the same as us, very unequal system...And its why if I ever run or own a business I'll never employ a women...and if i do she will be too old to have kids

Sorry for going off topic on my rant:D

Well, you'd make a pretty crap lapdance club owner then.

Millicent

busyliving wrote: »

.And its why if I ever run or own a business I'll never employ a women...and if i do she will be too old to have kids

I think I speak for all the women here when I say I wouldn't want to work for you anyway. We're not all bloody baby machines, you know.

3qsmavrod5twfe

I agree that there should be more rights for men in terms of leave, but I fear that there is no "one size fits all" solution to it.

Despite the protestations, men and women are different, but that does not mean they are not equal. However womens' groups tend to be more vocal in asserting their rights and issues that concern them than men. They've certainly had more practise as they have been in existence since suffrage and the womens' lib movement, whereas the mens advocacy groups are a relatively new phenomenom. Therefore you are more likely to hear mass protestations about how a particular golf club doesn't accept female members, but you won't get a line of lads waving placards outside the local women only gym.

Anywhere I have worked over the last 10 years, women get paid the same rates as the guys if they do the same job, but as is their perogative, if they decide that they want to have kids then they are foregoing a lot of opportunities in their employment. 8 or 9 months is a long time to be out of a workplace, and you have to accept the fact that promotions and pay raises may well be handed out in that time to those who are there, be it men or women who are not on maternity leave. But even when they do return they have been out of the loop for so long that there is inevitably a learning curve to get back to the position they were in beforehand so after 12 months you are back where you started in terms of career progression, but anyone not on leave has moved on another 12 months in terms of experience and exposure.

I am not for one minute saying that raising a newborn child is not hard work, but from an employer's perspective, why should they care. It comes to end of year and Mr.X and Ms.Y have worked hard for the year and are being given a raise (I know it is completely hypothetical in the current climate) but they are not going to sit down and say that Ms.Z has been working really hard and done a top notch job raising little Johnny or Mary, lets give her a raise also. We are not a socialist state yet so rewards for work done in your employment should not extend to everyone. If that was the case why would anyone even bother.

The Irish legal system is skewed in favour of the mother in terms of rights to the child be it maternity leave, guardianship, custody etc. I believe it is pretty much written into the constitution and as such I think that is a minefield that none of our political betters are willing to cross.

Not really sure what my point is with all of this. Maybe it is that men should have equal access for paternity leave as women do to maternity leave, but be willing to face the same career consequences if they choose to avail of it.

That or mat/paternity leave for some, free minature flags for others.

Jimoslimos

busyliving wrote: »

But going off topic here, women got paid the same as me, but didn't do any kind of lifting...all heavy lifting was done by me and even moderate lifting my me while, so I and a few of the other male staff did extra duties and the women got paid the same as us, very unequal system..

Be thankful you have one attribute that confers an advantage in the workplace - might think differently when a robot makes your heavyman position redundant.

Artur Foden

I don't see the harm in giving dads a bit of paternity leave. I'm certainly not trying to pretend that it's easy carrying a baby for 9 months as you would as a mother. It's great that mums can take a good while off work. I'm not even trying to compare it.

But are there any real reasons men shouldn't have the same thing, even for a month or two? You hear these days that a lot of families are growing up without much paternal involvement so surely making it easy for men to be with their kids by giving paid leave would help change that?

ScumLord

Artur Foden wrote: »

But are there any real reasons men shouldn't have the same thing, even for a month or two?

To be the bread winner while the mother is minding the newborn. That's the reason men haven't been at home in the past.

Millicent

ScumLord wrote: »

To be the bread winner while the mother is minding the newborn. That's the reason men haven't been at home in the past.

That's not a real reason these days though.