DB's fare stages

n97 mini

Anyone know how they're worked out? Is it simply bus stops?

One of my regular bus routes has had an extra stop installed mid-way on the route, which puts the total number of stops from 3 stops to 4. This has put my fare up from €1.20 to €1.65.

Is this how fare stages normally work?

coylemj

No it's not, a 'stage' is a bus stop but not all bus stops are stages. If you check the timetable for your route on www.dublinbus.ie you'll see the stages listed.

If you board between stages you pay from the previous stage and similarly if you alight between stages you pay the fare up to the next stage point.

The addition of a new bus stop on your route should have had no effect on your fare since you're travelling the same distance. If you're only travelling four stops then unless you're on a route with long gaps between stops, chances are you should still only be paying 1.20 as you're probably only clocking up two stages.

KD345

n97 mini wrote: »

Anyone know how they're worked out? Is it simply bus stops?

One of my regular bus routes has had an extra stop installed mid-way on the route, which puts the total number of stops from 3 stops to 4. This has put my fare up from €1.20 to €1.65.

Is this how fare stages normally work?

Stage points are not based on the number of bus stops, but a distance on the route itself. On most routes it averages out at around 4 stops per stage, but it can vary depending on the route.

Adding stops mid stages should not have any impact on the fare, unless they have moved the stage point on your route. This is quite rare. Usually new stops just fit in around the existing stage markers.

dublinman1990

Here's some example's here for which I would like to show you below.

From LIDL in Deansgrange (Deansgrange Cross) to Dun Laoghaire DART Station (Crofton Road), the fare is €1.65 for a choice of 3 routes, 46A,63 and the 75. On both the 46A and 75, they would go exactly the same route past Kill Avenue, which bypasses Monkstown Farm while going there.

The number of stops on the 46A and 75, not counting the stop you board, there is a total of 11 stops.

However, on the 63 the fare is the same, but completely different and smaller route. The number of stops on this route, not counting the stop you board, is a total of 15 stops, that's 4 extra stops.

The_Wrecker

As a driver on the 46a, ive limited knowledge of stage's since they have never been displayed since i joined the route. Foxrock to RTE is displayed on the machine as N11 Stillorgan rd, all the same. The NCR is the same from the Infirmary rd to Phibs's.

The whole stage systems need to be brought upto date with numbers on the stop and descriptions of locations from 2011 not 1970's....

foggy_lad

dublinman1990 wrote: »

Here's some example's here for which I would like to show you below.

From LIDL in Deansgrange (Deansgrange Cross) to Dun Laoghaire DART Station (Crofton Road), the fare is €1.65 for a choice of 3 routes, 46A,63 and the 75. On both the 46A and 75, they would go exactly the same route past Kill Avenue, which bypasses Monkstown Farm while going there.

The number of stops on the 46A and 75, not counting the stop you board, there is a total of 11 stops.

However, on the 63 the fare is the same, but completely different and smaller route. The number of stops on this route, not counting the stop you board, is a total of 15 stops, that's 4 extra stops.

Fare stages are unique to each bus route and not based on the actual journey so going from stage A to stage B on one bus could be 5 stages but it could be 8 stages on a different bus route to go between the exact same stops!

The_Wrecker

The farm 63 has the same stages as the old 46A, Kill ave had a few crammed together for the then new rte75. But equal stages both routes kept the fares the same.

AlekSmart

Wrecker,You can expect to have your head wrecked from the 1st January when passengers rather suddenly have to develop a knowledge of the stages,particularly when the difference could be as much as 70c :eek:

I forsee much too'ing and fro'ing,full n frank exchanges of views etc as,for now very few of our pasengers appear to know anything about Leap cards ...all they will see is the big Leap in their Fare !!

dublinman1990

I would intend to carry a leap card in the new year, It is better value for me because I think the stage fares are going to be too high to pay anyway.

cson

Ah the mysterious stage system where it can cost one €1.20 to go 800m or 2km depending on where you board from.

Oh to have a flat fare and a tag on/tag off system.

AlekSmart

cson wrote: »

Ah the mysterious stage system where it can cost one €1.20 to go 800m or 2km depending on where you board from.

Oh to have a flat fare and a tag on/tag off system.

But cson,with a Flat Fare there would be NO need to tag off at all,plus the tagging-on would need NO Driver interaction at all....Talk about a NO-Brainer.....It's SO obvious that few,if any of the Leapcard's originators are regular Bus Users.....:o

dfx-

cson wrote: »

Ah the mysterious stage system where it can cost one €1.20 to go 800m or 2km depending on where you board from.

Oh to have a flat fare and a tag on/tag off system.

Why is it mysterious? It stays the same forever on a route, no?

cson

dfx- wrote: »

Why is it mysterious? It stays the same forever on a route, no?

Mysterious in the sense as to how it was exactly formulated. As I've said above you can pay €1.20 and go both 800m and 2km depending on where you board.

cson

AlekSmart wrote: »

But cson,with a Flat Fare there would be NO need to tag off at all,plus the tagging-on would need NO Driver interaction at all....Talk about a NO-Brainer.....It's SO obvious that few,if any of the Leapcard's originators are regular Bus Users.....:o

Off the top of my head; if you introduced a flat fare of €3 for all cash transactions on board and introduced a tag on/tag off system on the buses whereby you get on, tag on and tag off when exiting - the machines update as the bus travels as to how many 'stages' you've travelled [should be possible with the RTPI system I'd imagine]. Could possibly even introduce the double door buses where the second doors are exit only [TfL buses have this iirc]. Does that make sense?

Cookie_Monster

coylemj wrote: »

If you board between stages you pay from the previous stage and similarly if you alight between stages you pay the fare up to the next stage point.

so they get you on both ends, that's a bit crap. I always assumed you only moved up a stage when you hit the point it starts, not if you were getting off slightly before :mad:

LXFlyer

As explained previously the staged fare system goes back virtually to the days of the trams.

The system is constructed in such a way to try to achieve that bus routes on parallel corridors have fare stages at similar distances. It gets skewed where routes which take different corridors then subsequently join together - you can get very long gaps between stages so that when the routes meet they are on the same stages going forward.

I'll try to explain this simply.

Routes 14 and 16a take different routes from the city centre to Beaumont, one via Malahide Road and one via Beaumont Road.

They leave City Centre at stage 75 going north, and take their different routes. They both reach the junction with Collins Avenue (with Malahide Road on the 14 and with Swords Road on the 16) at stage 81, but in order to keep in line with each other and other routes, the next stage on the 14 is Beaumont Convalescent Home which is on Skelly's Lane near the entrance to Beaumont Hospital and on the 16a it is on Swords Road at the junction with Lorcan Road (in order to keep it in line with the 33 and 41). Otherwise you would have two different sets of stages all along the same route north of that point. It means that the distance between stage 81 and 82 on route 14 has to be the longest in Dublin!

You can find many other examples if you check out the stages of bus routes that deviate and rejoin at a later point.

The system needs a complete overhaul and to my mind the only acceptable solution is a simple zonal system.

LXFlyer

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

so they get you on both ends, that's a bit crap. I always assumed you only moved up a stage when you hit the point it starts, not if you were getting off slightly before :mad:

Afraid not. You assumed wrongly.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Fares--Tickets/Fare-Information/

Stages

• The number of stages travelled is calculated by deducting the boarding stage number from the alighting stage number
• Passengers boarding between stage points pay the appropriate fare from the preceding stage point. Passengers alighting between stage points pay the appropriate fare to the next stage point.
• All route stages are listed under the timetables.

n97 mini

Not having a dig at drivers here, but passengers especially with Leap cards should print off the list of fare stages for their routes to show bus drivers.

Here's the 46A stages from the DB site...

SandyfordGuy

On the Dublin Bus timetable posters at bus shelters it clearly states that the stages are calculated by the number of stages you cross.

foggy_lad

lxflyer wrote: »

Afraid not. You assumed wrongly.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Fares--Tickets/Fare-Information/

How are passengers supposed to know where these stages are? There are no signs or no markings on bus stops and even the information on the official timetables is no longer accurate because of changes to place names etc so what used to refer to one bus stop may now refer to a completely different stop which is not the stage point.

AlekSmart

n97 mini wrote: »

Not having a dig at drivers here, but passengers especially with Leap cards should print off the list of fare stages for their routes to show bus drivers.

Here's the 46A stages from the DB site...

Thats not something you should need to do n97mini,if the actual stage was identified on-the-ground.

Several of those stages are ambiguous,with references to streets and roads where there are several stops...which stop is Stage 73 ...the one before or after Pembroke St ?
Which stop is Stage 76,Blessington St has 3....and most worryingly most of the ambigious Stages are always at Fare relevant points..ie: the difference betwen €1.20 and €1.65 for a great many City Centre bound passengers.

This is replicated right across the system with,particularly from January 1st,the potential for great frustration and anger as the 15% increase kicks in !!! :eek:

It really is the most bizzarre setup imaginable that a Public Transport Company would actively seek to conceal such basic,important information from it's customers....GUBU is about the best description I can come up with ....:o

AlekSmart

foggy_lad wrote: »

How are passengers supposed to know where these stages are? There are no signs or no markings on bus stops and even the information on the official timetables is no longer accurate because of changes to place names etc so what used to refer to one bus stop may now refer to a completely different stop which is not the stage point.

Absolutely correct and proper Foggy_Lad.

I may be wrong,but I also suspect that any attempt by Dublin Bus to pursue a case for Fare Evasion based on (Rampant) over-riding,would collapse in Court as soon as a Judge was advised that the Company refuse to reasonably identify their own Fare-Stage points,either to passengers or staff,thereby making compliance with the bye-laws extremely difficult.

A totally contrived issue,immediately solveable at little cost,and which should never have been allowed to happen in the first instance. :mad:

LXFlyer

foggy_lad wrote: »

How are passengers supposed to know where these stages are? There are no signs or no markings on bus stops and even the information on the official timetables is no longer accurate because of changes to place names etc so what used to refer to one bus stop may now refer to a completely different stop which is not the stage point.

If you see in post #16 above I stated that the entire system needs an overhaul and should be replaced by zones.

coylemj

Stages used to be identified by a sign along the lines of 'Stage Point' at the bus stops which were stages, they no longer are so the only source nowadays as far as I know is the DB website.

Given that bus drivers got no very little training on the Leap Card, it's no surprise that they seem completely clueless as to fare stages.

I think DB has the same problem as An Post, there is a 'them and us' attitude between the workers and management. Anything that smacks remotely like a change to work practices leads to claims for a 'productivity increase' i.e. blackmail so the management do as little as possible and just pretend they're only tweaking the system.

bk

lxflyer wrote: »

If you see in post #16 above I stated that the entire system needs an overhaul and should be replaced by zones.

I don't see a zonal system helping significantly.

While it would simplify the stage fare system and make it easier to understand, people would still need to interact with the drivers and you wouldn't get the benefit of LEAP card and reduced dwell times.

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

I don't see a zonal system helping significantly.

While it would simplify the stage fare system and make it easier to understand, people would still need to interact with the drivers and you wouldn't get the benefit of LEAP card and reduced dwell times.

I concur - but given the current financial situation I don't think the company is prepared to risk a drop in farebox revenue that could result from the implementation of a flat fare system.

You may feel that that may not happen, but I suspect that the company just does not want to take that risk. The danger is that if farebox revenue drops, more service cuts will have to be implemented. I would stress this is my personal opinion, I don't know what the company view actually is. However, they do always tend to be very conservative in their approach, probably because they have been burnt politically so many times over the years.

If we assume that is the case, then frankly a zonal system is the only way to go forward with clear markings on bus stops at each zonal boundary.

It will not remove the driver interaction or dwell time issue but right now that is not (in my view) the main issue for the company - maintaining revenue is (rightly or wrongly).

AlekSmart

coylemj wrote: »

Stages used to be identified by a sign along the lines of 'Stage Point' at the bus stops which were stages, they no longer are so the only source nowadays as far as I know is the DB website.

Given that bus drivers got no very little training on the Leap Card, it's no surprise that they seem completely clueless as to fare stages.

I think DB has the same problem as An Post, there is a 'them and us' attitude between the workers and management. Anything that smacks remotely like a change to work practices leads to claims for a 'productivity increase' i.e. blackmail so the management do as little as possible and just pretend they're only tweaking the system.

The productivity element in Dublin Bus has long since been sorted.
The reality is that the last major productivity deal embraced a full compliance with future technology element.

This has allowed the full introduction of new Radio systems,CCTV,Ticketing Systems , RTPI etc without any IR problems.

This is a very far cry from the 1980's when, I can guarantee,such changes in Work Practices would have been fraught with problems.

It's interesting that with the Fare Stage situation,it's the older driver base,particularly those who were conductors,who know the Stages inside out...there is,worryingly,now a significant number of Busdrivers who have NEVER seen or operated a route with Stages displayed on street.

robd

bk wrote: »

I don't see a zonal system helping significantly.

While it would simplify the stage fare system and make it easier to understand, people would still need to interact with the drivers and you wouldn't get the benefit of LEAP card and reduced dwell times.

I don't agree. Zonal systems work by the simple method of colours. You can easily have a zonal system which roughly matches the current stage system and hence meets requirements of Dublin Bus not losing revenue for most cases (except cross city).

Big advantage is you could just place a colour visual indicator on stops. Passengers and drivers would know with confidence which zone they're in and how many zones they're going.

I see people getting on at my stop (1.85) to city centre and paying 1.65 or 1.20. It's rare for driver to even question them these days. Probably not worth the abuse and hassle all round. Dublin Bus must be losing a fortune with over stoppers these days.

bk

I agree DB are probably afraid to make a jump to flat fare due to being afraid of the unknown.

However just thinking about this between ourselves, in reality, I don't think it would lead to any danger of lose of fare income.

Based on the current fare structure, there really isn't that much difference between fares, it ranges from €1.20 to €1.90 *, with the vast majority of people paying €1.65 and €1.85

It would seem to me a flat cash fare of €2.50 and flat leap fare of €1.70 to €1.80 should be achievable, without a major lose of revenue.

One major benefit of this would be all the 1.20 and 1.65 fares we all know that people regularly pay (either on purpose or due to not knowing the correct fare) for longer journeys. Fare evasion becomes much less of an issue.

DB would also gain from the extra revenue cash people pay, while also benefiting from decreased dwell times and eventually no cash handling costs.

I find it hard to believe that it couldn't be accurately modelled by statistics by some consultants, so that there would be no revenue lose.

I can only think that they don't do it for two reasons:
1) Fear of change
2) Political interference, all the political meddling there would be from people complaining about having to pay a higher cash fee.

* I find it hard to believe that many people pay more then 1.90 with the travel 90 tickets available. In many ways the travel 90 shows what price DB consider a flat fare to be.

LXFlyer

I understand your points, and while you may consider them valid, I do feel that the company does not want to take that risk given the subsidy is being cut back further.

You may well be correct, but at the end of the day if the company did switch to a flat fare and farebox revenue fell (it is a risk), then I suspect it would be very difficult to switch back. The company would then be at a loss and the only result would be further cutbacks.

Assuming that is the case, I would at the very least advocate a switch to a zonal structure rather than perpetuating with the staged fare system.

Further to your comment, I'm constantly surprised at the number of people still regularly paying EUR 2.30 cash every day despite the Travel 90 ticket existing. I've heard drivers telling them about it and yet they still continue to pay cash!

markpb

lxflyer wrote: »

Further to your comment, I'm constantly surprised at the number of people still regularly paying EUR 2.30 cash every day despite the Travel 90 ticket existing. I've heard drivers telling them about it and yet they still continue to pay cash!

I'm not amazed any more - lots of people I know do this (not that I'm defending it!). Maybe the shop beside where they live doesn't sell bus tickets or they find it hard to keep track of how many they've used, etc, etc. Ultimately, unless there's a marked difference between cash and prepaid (40c isn't massive to lazy people) and Dublin Bus actively stop accepting cash at busy stops, it won't happen.

Aard

They should do like they did in Oslo - a single fare structure for the city whether day or night. And it's a flat fare to boot. 28kr: about €3.60, or €2.30 at purchasing power parity.

Oslo is equally if not more spread out as Dublin. It makes Dublin look cheap as chips. There are many modes (train, metro, tram, bus, ferry) which are covered by the one fare -- prices aren't based on mode of transport, rather mode of transport is based on demand/topography.

Of course, if 28 crowns is a little pricey for you, you can always get a period ticket. Here's the prices below, the third column takes the cost of living and high salaries (~€18 minimum wage) into consideration:

NOK EUR PPP
24 hour 75 9.70 6.30
7 day 220 28.40 18.50
30 day 590 76.20 49.50
365 day 5900 762 495

Yes, you've read that right -- even in a raw currency conversion, it's 23% cheaper to buy an annual ticket in Oslo for all modes than it is for an annual Dublin Bus ticket. Just a quick overview of how the most expensive city in Europe does things...

foggy_lad

Aard wrote: »

They should do like they did in Oslo - a single fare structure for the city whether day or night. And it's a flat fare to boot. 28kr: about €3.60, or €2.30 at purchasing power parity.

Oslo is equally if not more spread out as Dublin. It makes Dublin look cheap as chips. There are many modes (train, metro, tram, bus, ferry) which are covered by the one fare -- prices aren't based on mode of transport, rather mode of transport is based on demand/topography.

Of course, if 28 crowns is a little pricey for you, you can always get a period ticket. Here's the prices below, the third column takes the cost of living and high salaries (~€18 minimum wage) into consideration:

NOK EUR PPP
24 hour 75 9.70 6.30
7 day 220 28.40 18.50
30 day 590 76.20 49.50
365 day 5900 762 495

Yes, you've read that right -- even in a raw currency conversion, it's 23% cheaper to buy an annual ticket in Oslo for all modes than it is for an annual Dublin Bus ticket. Just a quick overview of how the most expensive city in Europe does things...

Try buying a pint though and break the bank:) some things are much cheaper but many things considered luxuries are a lot dearer.

Cookie_Monster

bk wrote: »

I don't see a zonal system helping significantly.

While it would simplify the stage fare system and make it easier to understand, people would still need to interact with the drivers and you wouldn't get the benefit of LEAP card and reduced dwell times.

that and DB would not doubt feel the need to complicate it, giving each major centre their own additional zones to go from. I can see it happening. Zone 1 Dub CC to say canals, 2 surrounding that, 3 surrounding that, until you got to say Dun Laoghaire which has it's own mini central Zone 1 with Zone 2 or 3 surrounding it also.

foggy_lad

Dear Mr Xxxxxxxxxx
I refer to your email regarding Stage information,

Stage information is carried for every bus route timetable on our website. The stage information was removed from bus stops a number of years ago as space became more limited with more timetables being displayed.

Bus drivers should be very well acquainted with stages, as all the stage information is pre-programmed into the ticket machine. The console shows the driver the current location and the range of where each fare extends to are listed. If there is any doubt regarding the correct fare to be paid, the driver should be consulted.

Early in 2012, a Stage Calculator will be available on our website and smart phone Apps. This will allow a customer to select the boarding stop and the alighting stop and the relevant fare will be shown.

A refinement to the ticket machine software later in 2012 will automate stage information.

I trust that this deals adequately with your request.




Kind regards,

Customer Comment Desk,

Dublin Bus

The bolding is mine

So all stage information has been removed from the very tops of the bus stops which had no other information apart from the Dublin Bus logo!

As for knowing what states are where, the information is available ONLY if you have a computer laptop or smartphone and are computer literate!

Also the drivers SHOULD have all the required information but this will only be the case if they bother to keep their machines updated throughout the journey and if they memorise the locations of the stage points on whatever routes they are driving.

In the case of any dispute like the physical location of stage points when a street has numerous stops or where landmarks that the points are named after has vanished the drivers decision is final even when it is wrong!

Aard

A stage-calculator app. Oh my god.

Dublin Bus, please stop investing in this archaic system!

Cookie_Monster

Bus drivers should be very well acquainted with stages, as all the stage information is pre-programmed into the ticket machine.

Either they are or aren't (and should be further trained), that's very ambigious statement and not very helpful.
What information is in the machine to aid the driver in figuring out the stages too, other than sometimes cryptic names of places...

a simple example

48 52 Churchview Rd. (Granville Rd.)

there is a stop both north and south of that junction, how does the machine help the driver figure out which one is correct?

foggy_lad

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

there is a stop both north and south of that junction, how does the machine help the driver figure out which one is correct?

Obviously it will be the one which benefits the company with an increased fare regardless of the direction of travel:D