Insulate timber framed house

Irish Fire

Hi All,

I have a timber framed house and I'm considering getting the blow insulation into the walls, I've heard mixed views on if it can be done to a timber framed house.

Any views?

Thanks

Vote 4 Pedro

Might be wrong here but i didn't think it was a good idea on timber framed house, because of the "Breathable membrane"
I live in a timber framed bungalow and would like to know for sure as we live in a very exposed area and need to do something about the draughts.

BryanF

Irish Fire wrote: »

Hi All,

I have a timber framed house and I'm considering getting the blow insulation into the walls, I've heard mixed views on if it can be done to a timber framed house.

Any views?

Thanks

give us a but more info, whats the current wall build-up

Irish Fire

BryanF wrote: »

give us a but more info, whats the current wall build-up

It's an existing house (approx 12 years old).

I assume as with all timber framed houses there is a gap between the external brickwork and the internal wall.

BryanF

I'm not aware of a product suitable for insulating cavity between outer block and breather paper of of a timber frame.. the timber frame must be able to breathe and the cavity allows this.

this is why i prefer the idea of timber rainscreen or cement fibre board cladding on timber frame houses..

Irish Fire

BryanF wrote: »

I'm not aware of a product suitable for insulating cavity between outer block and breather paper of of a timber frame.. the timber frame must be able to breathe and the cavity allows this.

this is why i prefer the idea of timber rainscreen or cement fibre board cladding on timber frame houses..

TBH I've been telling the wife that this breathing space has to be left in place and she has had 3 companies looking at the house and they have said that it can be done..... My thinking on this is they don't care if it can or can't be done as they're hoping for the business........ 5 - 6 years down the line when the problems start they might not be around..... or give a fiddlers

BryanF

Irish Fire wrote: »

TBH I've been telling the wife that this breathing space has to be left in place and she has had 3 companies looking at the house and they have said that it can be done..... My thinking on this is they don't care if it can or can't be done as they're hoping for the business........ 5 - 6 years down the line when the problems start they might not be around..... or give a fiddlers

pm me their details

foxinsox

BryanF wrote: »

I'm not aware of a product suitable for insulating cavity between outer block and breather paper of of a timber frame.. the timber frame must be able to breathe and the cavity allows this.

this is why i prefer the idea of timber rainscreen or cement fibre board cladding on timber frame houses..

Hi

I'm also in a timber frame house, I think there are bricks (redbrick) then "maybe" some sort of insulation then cavity bricks then plasterboard then plaster.. just guessing here..

The house is about 14 years old, thrown up in the tiger years..

Any advice on how, who or links to more info would be really appreciated as my heating bills are huge and the house is always cold.

Some fluffy fibreglass insulation in the attic but if I stick my head in the attic it would nearly get blown off.

Cheers

MicktheMan

foxinsox wrote: »

Hi

I'm also in a timber frame house, I think there are bricks (redbrick) then "maybe" some sort of insulation then cavity bricks then plasterboard then plaster.. just guessing here..

The house is about 14 years old, thrown up in the tiger years..

Any advice on how, who or links to more info would be really appreciated as my heating bills are huge and the house is always cold.

Some fluffy fibreglass insulation in the attic but if I stick my head in the attic it would nearly get blown off.

Cheers

Tbh, it doesn't sound like a tf house.
To find out why your house is cold and costing a lot to heat get an experienced architect/engineer to do a heat loss survey including an airtightness test. This should result in a report outlining why your house is cold/difficult to heat and what you can/should/should not do to remedy the situation.

foxinsox

MicktheMan wrote: »

Tbh, it doesn't sound like a tf house.
To find out why your house is cold and costing a lot to heat get an experienced architect/engineer to do a heat loss survey including an airtightness test. This should result in a report outlining why your house is cold/difficult to heat and what you can/should/should not do to remedy the situation.

oops..

there is timber in there somewhere too,

that was just a friend of mine guessing the way the walls might be built..

I should have written:

Redbricks then timber (maybe some sort of insulation here) then cavity bricks then plasterboard...maybe order is slightly wrong.

jamesjustjames

foxinsox wrote: »

Hi

I'm also in a timber frame house, I think there are bricks (redbrick) then "maybe" some sort of insulation then cavity bricks then plasterboard then plaster.. just guessing here..

The house is about 14 years old, thrown up in the tiger years..

Any advice on how, who or links to more info would be really appreciated as my heating bills are huge and the house is always cold.

Some fluffy fibreglass insulation in the attic but if I stick my head in the attic it would nearly get blown off.

Cheers

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056483195


see post above, for similar query.

I suspect that you are in the same boat as me.

Based on the advice from BrianF and on some reading I did, the biggest problem seems to be very poor airtightness as well as poor insulation.

In my house there are no vapour barriers behind the plasterboard and the insulation is poorly fitted or missing. Because there are no solid walls, the house is full of cavities, all of which allow heat to escape and cause drafts. Also, the windows are flimsy and badly sealed.

I have a natural gas fire which is vented at the back and ESB and gas meters, telephone box in the wall, which I suspect add to the drafts.

I will have to get someone out with a thermal imaging camera.

The more I learn about wooden frame houses the more I realise that my "award winning builders" were just the biggest firm of cowboys in the country

mydogjack

Hi I also live in a timber frame house( 8 yrs. old ).
We looked at getting extra insulation but were told it was not suitable for a timber frame build.
What can be done, apart from the attic, to add insulation, air tightness etc.????
We are currently looking into external insulation but are unsure if it is weather resistant etc. as we live in an exposed area and most companies offer 10 yr guarantee only.

Any help appreciated???

AlanConnolly

Timber Frame walls CAN NOT be pumped with bonded bead or mineral woll.

The NSAI will not allow. As a contractor, if I pump a TF wall, and the NSAI inspect same, I will probobly have by NSAI Licence revoked.

The problem with pumping a TF is that the cavity is there for a specific reason ~ to allow the timber to ventilate.

Dont allow a contractor to do this for you. If you insist on getting this work carried, make sure you get it in writting from your contractor that they are aware that the walls are TF,..... just so that you can sue the ass of them when your house is wrecked :eek:


Alan

PWR

anyone any ideas what the heat loss survey with thermal camera should cost?

Ta,

PWR

MicktheMan

PWR wrote: »

anyone any ideas what the heat loss survey with thermal camera should cost?

Ta,

PWR

PM sent

tatjana78

Hi,

Our house is a timber frame as well build in 1999 with red bricks on the outside. Its quite cold & drafty inside so we are thinking to insulate it as well. We had few companies out, one of them said they can pump our walls but as everyone says we knew by then you can't do it so got rid off them very quickly, the others offered external insulation. For Semi-D 4 bedroomed house the quotation is working out very expensive in the region of €14K - grant of €2,6k = cost to us €11,400. Does anyone know if you can get a cheaper external insulation for a timber framed house? Thanks for any reply's

jamesjustjames

tatjana78 wrote: »

Hi,

Our house is a timber frame as well build in 1999 with red bricks on the outside. Its quite cold & drafty inside so we are thinking to insulate it as well. We had few companies out, one of them said they can pump our walls but as everyone says we knew by then you can't do it so got rid off them very quickly, the others offered external insulation. For Semi-D 4 bedroomed house the quotation is working out very expensive in the region of €14K - grant of €2,6k = cost to us €11,400. Does anyone know if you can get a cheaper external insulation for a timber framed house? Thanks for any reply's

I doubt that external insulation would work.

You would be insulating the external brick wall,while air would be circulating behind it.

Also, in my house (timber frame with brick exterior) the external wall has many small vents to allow the air in to the ventilation gap. If your house has these, then you would be interfering with the ventilation.

BryanF

tatjana78 wrote: »

Hi,

Our house is a timber frame as well build in 1999 with red bricks on the outside. Its quite cold & drafty inside so we are thinking to insulate it as well. We had few companies out, one of them said they can pump our walls but as everyone says we knew by then you can't do it so got rid off them very quickly, the others offered external insulation. For Semi-D 4 bedroomed house the quotation is working out very expensive in the region of €14K - grant of €2,6k = cost to us €11,400. Does anyone know if you can get a cheaper external insulation for a timber framed house? Thanks for any reply's

simple answer is timber frame with external masonary leaf is not suited to EWI - I would probably remove internal plasterboard and add insulation(maybe Gutex board taped internally and then re plasterboard) - you may find that air-leakage is a major problem- this will require carefully membrane application and will be difficult at floor/ceiling junctions

maddragon

BryanF is correct. Even if external insulation didn't adversely effect the timber frame (which it would) the benefit is negated by the cavity. The insulation will have to be added internally.

BryanF

maddragon wrote: »

The insulation will have to be added internally.

but the vapour control layer becomes a major concern in the dry-lining process and many DIY'er / contractors will not pay enough attention. I would go so far as to expect a good air-tightness test/result to be sure complete membrane cover.

patsocks

Bryan I hope this thread isn't too old for you to reply but I was at the balmoral show last week where a contractor insisted that they can successfully pump the cavity of a timber frame house with icyene foam, which they had samples of, as he claims it's permanently breathable, remains flexible and doesn't transmit moisture from the external leaf to the breathable membrane. seems to good to be true, which usually means it doesn't work????

vertico

http://www.icynene.ie/
contact them and see what they say. i have a friend who sprays it and its a very impressive product,,,so he says

BryanF

patsocks wrote: »

Bryan I hope this thread isn't too old for you to reply but I was at the balmoral show last week where a contractor insisted that they can successfully pump the cavity of a timber frame house with icyene foam, which they had samples of, as he claims it's permanently breathable, remains flexible and doesn't transmit moisture from the external leaf to the breathable membrane. seems to good to be true, which usually means it doesn't work????

show me the Iab certification that suggests you can pump a timber frame houses 'cavity' (external block) with foam? DONT DO THIS unless you have certified proof. i wouldnt entertain this.

feel free to post your findings here

patsocks

I did ask for certification at the show and the rep is supposed to be forwarding on the documentation but I presume that can't happen judging by your reply!! my big problem is that when our house was built that the windows were incorrectly fitted - to the outer leaf (hallmark stone) rather than the timber frame, so we have hurricanes in the house from convection more than leaks I think. I'll chase them up about the cert., and post the outcome, thanks for your reply

eddie.g

Any update on this

The Red Ace

I live in a tfh that I got built in 81 which has 4.5 inches of fibre glass insulation in every wall but it was very draughty when new. Draughts came out under every skirting board. my own solution was seal every skirtingboard to the floor with silicone and fit a sliding vent to the room wall that can be closed up when windy. Don't see any ill results in the last 28 years. Maybe timber framed houses are built different now, mine was built on a concrete slab, around 28 pre cast concrete upright pillars bolted to an rsj around its perimeter and then they roofed and felted followed by internal and external walls. Seven weeks build time turn the key @ Irl.£17480,

eddie.g

Found this.

Timber-Frame Insulation by Munster Insulation

Cellulose Insulation

Warmcel is an eco-friendly home insulation product made from 100% recycled newspapers, which compares favourably with all imported alternatives. Our cellulose is suitable for the insulation of residential and commercial timber-framed homes, attics and lofts, not just for new homes, but also for retrofitting older buildings.

Warmcel 500 Cellulose combines high levels of insulation and air-tightness with excellent hygroscopic qualities. For open panel walls Warmcel 500 is damp spray applied. Once sprayed, it is levelled off to the depth of the studs, ensuring the wall is completely filled, with no air pockets or voids, even around pipework, wiring or other obstructions. The moisture naturally dries within a few days. Because of it’s superior insulation properties, Warmcel Cellulose provides U-Values matching and beyond current building regulations, with typical constructions achieving values of between 0.22 W/m2K and 0.10 W.m2K

yop

eddie.g wrote: »

Found this.

Timber-Frame Insulation by Munster Insulation

Cellulose Insulation

Warmcel is an eco-friendly home insulation product made from 100% recycled newspapers, which compares favourably with all imported alternatives. Our cellulose is suitable for the insulation of residential and commercial timber-framed homes, attics and lofts, not just for new homes, but also for retrofitting older buildings.

Warmcel 500 Cellulose combines high levels of insulation and air-tightness with excellent hygroscopic qualities. For open panel walls Warmcel 500 is damp spray applied. Once sprayed, it is levelled off to the depth of the studs, ensuring the wall is completely filled, with no air pockets or voids, even around pipework, wiring or other obstructions. The moisture naturally dries within a few days. Because of it’s superior insulation properties, Warmcel Cellulose provides U-Values matching and beyond current building regulations, with typical constructions achieving values of between 0.22 W/m2K and 0.10 W.m2K

Thats sprayed in between the external studs, not the cavity.

eddie.g

yop wrote: »

Thats sprayed in between the external studs, not the cavity.

This is the place that said they could pump the cavity

http://www.donedeal.ie/buildingmaterials-for-sale/insulation/4931544

yop

eddie.g wrote: »

This is the place that said they could pump the cavity

http://www.donedeal.ie/buildingmaterials-for-sale/insulation/4931544

They'd all pump the cavity I would say, but its the fact, yet to be proved wrong, that it will stop the air from circulating and end up causing issues for the TF.
I haven't seen one TF company suggest we can pump them.

vicwatson

http://www.icynene.ie/timber-frame-construction/

The above spray their foam between the studs and NOT into the cavity, the cavity remains that - a cavity

A tip for people with timber frames houses - next time you've a windy night put your hand at the gap between the sill board where it meets the window frame and feel the breeze.

From my experience the sill board doesn't bridge the cavity gap and all the air sent into the cavity via the breather holes in the out concrete leaf seeps through these gaps. I've siliconed along all of mine to block off the draught.

yop

vicwatson wrote: »

http://www.icynene.ie/timber-frame-construction/

The above spray their foam between the studs and NOT into the cavity, the cavity remains that - a cavity

A tip for people with timber frames houses - next time you've a windy night put your hand at the gap between the sill board where it meets the window frame and feel the breeze.

From my experience the sill board doesn't bridge the cavity gap and all the air sent into the cavity via the breather holes in the out concrete leaf seeps through these gaps. I've siliconed along all of mine to block off the draught.

God post, we seem to have a few problems with some breezes, my own fault and lack of education on it all to be honest, did all the insulation and plasterboarding and cills myself so I didn't obviously seal it well enough!

KAGY

yop wrote: »

God post, we seem to have a few problems with some breezes, my own fault and lack of education on it all to be honest, did all the insulation and plasterboarding and cills myself so I didn't obviously seal it well enough!

Wish i had done mine myself. Got a air infiltration test done witha thermal camera and it's obvious that the fibre glass has shrunk / settled / not enough used. In fact there was only about 2m length of fibre glass split in half I.e 75mm in the alcoveby the fire place. One stud had nothing!

I wonder could I pump behind the plaster board without removing the fibre glass?

yop

KAGY wrote: »

Wish i had done mine myself. Got a air infiltration test done witha thermal camera and it's obvious that the fibre glass has shrunk / settled / not enough used. In fact there was only about 2m length of fibre glass split in half I.e 75mm in the alcoveby the fire place. One stud had nothing!

I wonder could I pump behind the plaster board without removing the fibre glass?

Where did you get the thermal camera may I asked?
I wonder if a lad could rent a pump and pump it in myself IF you could drill small holes, say an inch wide in the plaster board between the internal studs, could you pump it?
I would have no issue filling it again and painting over.

KAGY

yop wrote: »

Where did you get the thermal camera may I asked?
I wonder if a lad could rent a pump and pump it in myself IF you could drill small holes, say an inch wide in the plaster board between the internal studs, could you pump it?
I would have no issue filling it again and painting over.

Got someone In to do it. About 200, maybe less iirc. they attached a blower to the door frame and sucked the air out of the house. It was 2deg outside and I had the inside at 23deg for 24hrs so you could really see the difference in temps. Could even see where the RSJ s were ducting the cold air into the centre of the house.

I was thinking the same myself about pumping, especially after the mess of ripping the front room apart to re insulate

Neds_K

Hi all,
Did anyone find the solution to the drafty Timberframe Houses?

Neds_K

Also I bought my house second hand....how can you find out which company originally threw up your timber frame house.
I have no DIY experience....I'm not quite sure I need the extreme of taking down plasterboards etc. I rang someone to do the air tightness test and he advised to seal all I can myself first and then get the airtight ness test to identify remaining problem areas.
My question is which type of trademan should I get to put sealing tape behind skirting board, seal sockets and windows etc
Thanks in advance

BryanF

Neds_K wrote: »

Also I bought my house second hand....how can you find out which company originally threw up your timber frame house.
I have no DIY experience....I'm not quite sure I need the extreme of taking down plasterboards etc. I rang someone to do the air tightness test and he advised to seal all I can myself first and then get the airtight ness test to identify remaining problem areas.
My question is which type of trademan should I get to put sealing tape behind skirting board, seal sockets and windows etc
Thanks in advance

There is now a growing number of air-tightness contractors, It would help if you divulged Where in the country the house is

Neds_K

BryanF wrote: »

There is now a growing number of air-tightness contractors, It would help if you divulged Where in the country the house is

Very glad to divulge :-). I'm Dublin North. From my understanding an independent builder built my house, a 2nd house on his corner site to keep & rent, but had to sell during crash. The finishings are of high quality but the drafts throughout the house rattle some doors. .doesn't make sense. Built 2006 before 2008 regulations
Anyways any contractor recommendations much appreciated

MicktheMan

Neds_K wrote: »

.doesn't make sense.

What doesn't?

Neds_K

MicktheMan wrote: »

What doesn't?

That the builder was apparently keeping this house for himself, finishings to a high standard, but seems to have scrimped on sealing the house properly.
It's all optics :-)

gizmo73

Hi, has anyone used this crowd or know anything about them?
I have a TFH and need to get something done with it.
http://www.icynene.ie

DrealDandman

PWR, Prices depend on a number of factors the most important being sqft. I provide these kind of services but dont want to be kicked off here for advertising so I guess PM me for more details. Please be patient with me guys I'm new on here only finding my feet

cnarf

Has anybody come across an Irish equivalent of thid company
http://www.retrofoamuk.com/timber-frame-wall-insulation.php

BryanF

No data sheet. No Test cert, fire classification, no vabour barrier installed, no minimum cavities, no mention on continuity, limitations etc etc

Based on the website and literature available this muck could ruin your home.

I'd be interested in any answers you can get from the company