Cooley Distillery Sold

Sundy

Just heard on the radio that Cooley has been sold to Beam for €95m.

Have to say this is sad news:mad:

Brockagh

Sundy wrote: »

Just heard on the radio that Cooley has been sold to Beam for €95m.

Have to say this is sad news:mad:

I think it's dollars, rather than euro. I don't know if it's good or bad news, but I'll hope for the best.

redlead

Ah for fcuk sake, nothing is sacred anymore!!!! There is now not one Irish owned distillery. Our whiskey industry is a disgrace considering what it could have become!

Sundy

Brockagh wrote: »

I think it's dollars, rather than euro. I don't know if it's good or bad news, but I'll hope for the best.

Yep, hopefully it can become global and for that it probably needed a powerhouse behind it.

The only thing is, id trust the Teeling family to do what is best for Cooley

Sundy

From the other thread
press release http://www.cooleywhiskey.com/flash/News/PDF/latest/Cooley-Dec16th2011.pdf

dubhthach

With big growth in Irish whiskey consumption it's not surprising that a big company coming in. Same of course happened with purchase of Tullamore Dew from C&C by Grant. There was growth of 22% in the US in Irish whiskey sales last year alone. One of few spirit categories with double digit growth.

I wouldn't be surprised that we will see one or two "artisan" style distilleries opening up over the next couple years. It will be interesting to see if the proposed Dingle Distillery gets off the ground for example.

BeerNut

dubhthach wrote: »

I wouldn't be surprised that we will see one or two "artisan" style distilleries opening up over the next couple years.

Artisan is tough when you have Revenue saying they won't consider you for a licence unless you have a still that does more than 1800L in one go.

Sundy

BeerNut wrote: »

Artisan is tough when you have Revenue saying they won't consider you for a licence unless you have a still that does more than 1800L in one go.

Is there any reason for that law or is it just 'one of those laws'?

Surely we should be trying to promote the growth of small industry as it creates jobs and promotes tourism.

applehunter

:mad:

We suck ass.

Irish Distillers, now Cooley

One of our only truly world class products and we have sold it all off.

Will a government spokesperson make any comment about this i wonder?

Sundy

applehunter wrote: »

:mad:

We suck ass.

Irish Distillers, now Cooley

One of our only truly world class products and we have sold it all off.

Will a government spokesperson make any comment about this i wonder?

Why would they? Private company

dubhthach

Sundy wrote: »

Why would they? Private company

After all the Government helped the near demise of Irish whiskey for a large part of the history of the state through their policies.

applehunter

Sundy wrote: »

Why would they? Private company

Irish company.

Ltd or plc. its still an Irish company selling a distinctive Irish branded product.

We sold our soul to the devil before when we gave up Irish distillers to the French.

Doodah7

Don't understand the doom and gloom on this. Pernod Ricard own Irish Distillers and it is booming. AFAIK, Pernod Ricard are completely hands off and let the company run itself and yet they benefit from the marketing and distribution scale of the parent company. Its the same for Bushmills and Diageo.

Surely Beam buying Cooley safeguards the company. Their products are still distilled and matured in Ireland so where is the problem?? They will only grow.

In fact it is a testament to Irish Whiskey that a company the size of Beam wanted to add Irish Whiskey to their portfolio.

applehunter

tallpaul wrote: »

Don't understand the doom and gloom on this. Pernod Ricard own Irish Distillers and it is booming. AFAIK, Pernod Ricard are completely hands off and let the company run itself and yet they benefit from the marketing and distribution scale of the parent company. Its the same for Bushmills and Diageo.

Surely Beam buying Cooley safeguards the company. Their products are still distilled and matured in Ireland so where is the problem?? They will only grow.

In fact it is a testament to Irish Whiskey that a company the size of Beam wanted to add Irish Whiskey to their portfolio.

Profits go abroad.

P. Breathnach

Sundy wrote: »

...
The only thing is, id trust the Teeling family to do what is best for Cooley

Teeling previously negotiated a sale to IDG, but the sale was blocked by the Competition Authority.

Some commentators at the time expressed the opinion that Teeling had set up Cooley with the objective of creating a situation where IDG would want to buy it either to close it down or incorporate it into its larger enterprise.

dubhthach

tallpaul wrote: »

Don't understand the doom and gloom on this. Pernod Ricard own Irish Distillers and it is booming. AFAIK, Pernod Ricard are completely hands off and let the company run itself and yet they benefit from the marketing and distribution scale of the parent company. Its the same for Bushmills and Diageo.

Surely Beam buying Cooley safeguards the company. Their products are still distilled and matured in Ireland so where is the problem?? They will only grow.

In fact it is a testament to Irish Whiskey that a company the size of Beam wanted to add Irish Whiskey to their portfolio.

going by the press release the total yearly sales of Cooley whiskies is 250,000 cases (9l). To put it in Pernod sold over 3million cases of Jameson alone last year. I would imagine a large company like Beam (also ownes Laphroaig and Teachers) will rapidly want to grow their sales.

In comparison Tullamore Dew sells about 650k cases a year. Given that Grant are considering building their own Distillery (potentially in Tullamore) I can imagine they plan on growing their sales hugely as well.

Diageo for example have tripled production at Bushmills since they bought it from Pernod Ricard.

BeerNut

Sundy wrote: »

Is there any reason for that law or is it just 'one of those laws'?

Pretty much all of our licensing laws are based around trying to control illicit trade. I reckon the 1800L rule is to discourage casual or small scale distillation: either do it in a big and easily monitored way, or don't do it at all.

dubhthach

BeerNut wrote: »

Pretty much all of our licensing laws are based around trying to control illicit trade. I reckon the 1800L rule is to discourage casual or small scale distillation: either do it in a big and easily monitored way, or don't do it at all.

Even then 1800L is about 10 times the size of the average size that Poitín stills (circa 40 gal)

Came across a documentary called "Déantús an Phoitín", second video goes through the process of traditional Poitín making.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fT4kyO0FH9Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_dHFWUOVzw

Brockagh

BeerNut wrote: »

Pretty much all of our licensing laws are based around trying to control illicit trade. I reckon the 1800L rule is to discourage casual or small scale distillation: either do it in a big and easily monitored way, or don't do it at all.

I think the idea behind it is to prohibit portable stills. But if the still is bolted to the ground, it's not going to be that portable anyway.

I looked into starting a distillery a while ago. Met with customs and excise. They hadn't had an application in over 100 years in this area, so weren't entirely sure about it.

nootroc

Aldi seem to have a lot of Cooley produce on their shelves at the moment.

Brockagh

dubhthach wrote: »

going by the press release the total yearly sales of Cooley whiskies is 250,000 cases (9l). To put it in Pernod sold over 3million cases of Jameson alone last year. I would imagine a large company like Beam (also ownes Laphroaig and Teachers) will rapidly want to grow their sales.

In comparison Tullamore Dew sells about 650k cases a year. Given that Grant are considering building their own Distillery (potentially in Tullamore) I can imagine they plan on growing their sales hugely as well.

Diageo for example have tripled production at Bushmills since they bought it from Pernod Ricard.

It will take a while, as they won't have the stocks right now. However, Cooley is not operating anywhere near capacity. If they do ramp up production, there might be a chance they'd recommission the Daly stills at Kilbeggan too, which would be very good news.

Mr Magnolia

I'm sad to see it sold personally. It'll be good for the distillery as I'm sure Beam will seek to push the brand and increase production which is bound to result in local jobs and added investment in the facility. As Brockagh said, it's not running to it's capacity and the moment though it's marketing and increased sales that's needed before increased capacity.

Bigcheeze

applehunter wrote: »

Profits go abroad.

Not when you have 12.5% corporation tax.

johnnyskeleton

Is it unrealistic to expect that this is all positive. As already pointed out a big multinational like beam don't just but a small distillery and let it trundle along, they expand. This means more jobs in both distilleries and an improvement of the cooley brand and Irish whiskey abroad.

There might also be a new tullamore dew distillery, the former owners of cooley might start again and if demand for Irish whiskey increases other distilleries might start up. The fact that it is an American company is also good news as it shows how Irish whiskey is really taking off in the US.

The only stated downside is that profits will go abroad. But that is to forget the immediate investment inwards of 95m. It will be a good few years of repatriated profits to even that out.

Sundy

Good post johnny

I look forward to Cooley whiskeys being around for a long time and despite being owned by Beam, il still buy it as my general have around the house bottle.

n97 mini

BeerNut wrote: »

Pretty much all of our licensing laws are based around trying to control illicit trade. I reckon the 1800L rule is to discourage casual or small scale distillation: either do it in a big and easily monitored way, or don't do it at all.

Guinness also successfully lobbied the Revenue in such a way so as to steer them into making various provisions that were anti-whiskey.

n97 mini

Bigcheeze wrote: »

Not when you have 12.5% corporation tax.

That's the tax on the profit, not the profit.

johnnyskeleton wrote:

But that is to forget the immediate investment inwards of 95m.

It's not an investment, it's the pay-off to the shareholders. Their return on their investment. Where that will end up is anyone's guess.

johnnyskeleton

n97 mini wrote: »

Bigcheeze wrote: »

Not when you have 12.5% corporation tax.

That's the tax on the profit, not the profit.

johnnyskeleton wrote:

But that is to forget the immediate investment inwards of 95m.

It's not an investment, it's the pay-off to the shareholders. Their return on their investment. Where that will end up is anyone's guess.

Well we can argue the semantics of it, but an American company purchasing an Irish company would be accounted for as an investment of 95m inwards. From a GDP point of view it might not make a substantial difference but from an import/export point of view it is an inward investment ie an export.

Sure, if the Teelings go out and buy an American company for 95m (less tax) it will tend to cancel it out, but the immediate transaction is good for the economy.

dubhthach

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Well we can argue the semantics of it, but an American company purchasing an Irish company would be accounted for as an investment of 95m inwards. From a GDP point of view it might not make a substantial difference but from an import/export point of view it is an inward investment ie an export.

Sure, if the Teelings go out and buy an American company for 95m (less tax) it will tend to cancel it out, but the immediate transaction is good for the economy.

Especially when you consider that Cooley was making €2m/year in profit before tax. Of course the growth potential are huge. Personally I'll be interested if they discontinue the "Own Brand" whiskies that Cooley currently produce. About half of their yearly output at the moment goes to produce stuff like

• Aldi -- Avoca
• Lidl -- Dun Dealgan
• M&S -- Cassidy's
• Dunnes Stores -- Golden Irish
• Tesco -- Tesco Special Reserve

etc.

That and they do alot of "private brands"

n97 mini

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

but the immediate transaction is good for the economy.

It's good for the share holders who sold their shares. It will be good for the economy *only* if they re-invest that money in the economy.

OTOH, Beam will start repatriating profits immediately.

Cavehill Red

tallpaul wrote: »

Don't understand the doom and gloom on this. Pernod Ricard own Irish Distillers and it is booming. AFAIK, Pernod Ricard are completely hands off and let the company run itself and yet they benefit from the marketing and distribution scale of the parent company. Its the same for Bushmills and Diageo.
.

This is simply not true. Bushmills has been terribly neglected by Diageo. There has been only one new product in the past decade, despite the distillers producing all manner of amazing things that they are not permitted to release onto the market. It was only this year, after Cooley had begun distilling single potstill whiskey, that IDL finally decided to expand their range beyond two bottlings, despite every previous limited edition potstill selling out at massively inflated prices.
Cooley have for 20 years been the innovators in Irish whiskey pushing the market forward, expanding it into new areas and re-opening the Kilbeggan distillery.
I fear that the Beam purchase will result in a rationalising of their brands to follow IDL's path of focusing all marketing onto one brand at the expense of the others.

Geuze

Off topic, but where is Tullamore Dew distilled?

I know that Diageo bought Bushmills off IDL a few years ago.

I know that IDL make Paddy / Powers / Jameson in Midleton.

But where is Tullamore Dew made?

dubhthach

Geuze wrote: »

Off topic, but where is Tullamore Dew distilled?

I know that Diageo bought Bushmills off IDL a few years ago.

I know that IDL make Paddy / Powers / Jameson in Midleton.

But where is Tullamore Dew made?

In Midelton, there's rumors afloat that Grant are looking at building a dedicated distillery for "Tullamore Dew". Supposedly looking at potential of bringing it back to Tullamore where it was last distilled in the 1950's!

The brand had been bought by Powers who distilled it in John's Lane before the move to Midelton. Where it stayed even with change of ownership to first C&C and then Grants.

Cavehill Red

Some of the Tullamore Dew range is actually distilled by Cooley too.

dubhthach

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Some of the Tullamore Dew range is actually distilled by Cooley too.

The Single Malt right? I forgot bout that one, was just thinking of standard blend. Still personally I would think it's a good thing if Grants do build their own distillery. Question is would they ever create a "Tullamore Single Pot Still"

the beer revolu

dubhthach wrote: »

Question is would they ever create a "Tullamore Single Pot Still"

Single pot still are very much the buzz words in Irish Whiskey at the moment.
I think it's quite likely that there will be lots of 'single pot still' whiskes knocking around in the not too distant future.


And just to further confuse the whole who distills what? thing....
IDL distill whiskey for Bushmill's (the single malt, I think).

redlead

the beer revolu wrote: »

Single pot still are very much the buzz words in Irish Whiskey at the moment.
I think it's quite likely that there will be lots of 'single pot still' whiskes knocking around in the not too distant future.


And just to further confuse the whole who distills what? thing....
IDL distill whiskey for Bushmill's (the single malt, I think).

I actually did a tour of Bushmills yesterday and asked them about that. IDL only distill the grain whiskey which Bushmills use in their belnded whiskeys. All the malt whiskey is distilled by Bushmills themselves.

dubhthach

I believe part of the confusion is due to fact that IDL do also distill Malt Whiskey in Midleton, it's used for blending. I believe they did release one Single Malt whiskey for the US market (90's -- early 00's) -- "Erin go Bragh" :rolleyes:





Review here:
http://www.whiskyfun.com/archiveseptember06-1.html#010906

johnnyskeleton

n97 mini wrote: »

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

but the immediate transaction is good for the economy.

It's good for the share holders who sold their shares. It will be good for the economy *only* if they re-invest that money in the economy.

OTOH, Beam will start repatriating profits immediately.

This is getting off topic so I'll simply say that you are missing the point: an American company that pays 95m to invest in something in Ireland is a 95m inward investmet in the Irish economy. There's no getting around that.

johnnyskeleton

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I fear that the Beam purchase will result in a rationalising of their brands to follow IDL's path of focusing all marketing onto one brand at the expense of the others.

well then another distillery will start up to fill that nieche. If you drink it, they will come

Brockagh

Cavehill Red wrote: »

This is simply not true. Bushmills has been terribly neglected by Diageo. There has been only one new product in the past decade, despite the distillers producing all manner of amazing things that they are not permitted to release onto the market. It was only this year, after Cooley had begun distilling single potstill whiskey, that IDL finally decided to expand their range beyond two bottlings, despite every previous limited edition potstill selling out at massively inflated prices.
Cooley have for 20 years been the innovators in Irish whiskey pushing the market forward, expanding it into new areas and re-opening the Kilbeggan distillery.
I fear that the Beam purchase will result in a rationalising of their brands to follow IDL's path of focusing all marketing onto one brand at the expense of the others.

Diageo has only owned Bushmills for a few years, and they've increased production to capacity.

And, I think, IDL makes nearly all its money from Jameson. Not sure how much sps earns them at all. It's a very small market.

Brockagh

dubhthach wrote: »

The Single Malt right? I forgot bout that one, was just thinking of standard blend. Still personally I would think it's a good thing if Grants do build their own distillery. Question is would they ever create a "Tullamore Single Pot Still"

And another distillery too...

Brockagh

the beer revolu wrote: »

Single pot still are very much the buzz words in Irish Whiskey at the moment.
I think it's quite likely that there will be lots of 'single pot still' whiskes knocking around in the not too distant future.


And just to further confuse the whole who distills what? thing....
IDL distill whiskey for Bushmill's (the single malt, I think).

Yes, and Bushmills produce some single malt for IDL. There's no grain whiskey produced in Bushmills. There is malt whiskey in Paddy, for example.

IDL used to do a single malt production for blending once every eight years or so. They have not ruled in or ruled out producing a single malt in the future, although some say their stills don't really suit single malt.

I think Hewitts contained Midleton malt too.

n97 mini

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

This is getting off topic so I'll simply say that you are missing the point:

You are right it's getting off topic and we'll have to agree to disagree. I for example would not agree that Heineken buying Murphy's was an inward investment in the Irish economy.

The Hill Billy

Apples & oranges being discussed now. Keep it on-topic please.

tHB