Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

Options
1…266267269271272…334

Comments

  • Options
    #8042
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    donalg1 wrote: »
    The Government wont be overly concerned with the amount that have paid by next saturday as the more people that dont pay then the more they will take in fines when they ultimately do pay, in six months they will have to pay €116 instead of the €100 so some will see it as not that urgent to get it paid this week.

    .

    Donal, where will the Govt send these fines to?

    Atm, they dont know who has to pay and who has not?

    Their has been reports of tenants/exempt households etc etc etc getting 'final demand' reminders.

    Will the same people receive fines too?

    This hasnt been thought out from the start, and the sooner the Govt admit it (and save face) the better.


  • Options
    #8043
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Donal do you realise that they'll spend more money paying the debt collection agencies than they'll make with this tax?


  • Options
    #8044
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    smash wrote: »
    Donal do you realise that they'll spend more money paying the debt collection agencies than they'll make with this tax?

    He does.

    Doubtful he'll admit it though.


  • Options
    #8045
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    smash wrote: »
    You've told other people that they're naive, you honestly think that there'll be repercussions with Europe if people don't pay this to raise a measly 160m?


    Yes they will raise it in other ways. Motor tax and VRT is going back up, it will bring in 5x more than a property tax. They can easily cut ministers wages and do away with extortionate pensions too. This property tax is not needed!

    No but the next time Ireland go to Europe to try and renogotiate the terms of their loans then they will be told to get lost and dont bother talking to us about loans or terms or interest rates when you cant even live up to the current terms.


  • Options
    #8046
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    mikom wrote: »
    Hold the line folks.

    ................At my signal, unleash hell....... or at least an angry rant on boards.ie


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #8047
    sunflower27
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,822 ✭✭✭sunflower27


    smash wrote: »
    Donal do you realise that they'll spend more money paying the debt collection agencies than they'll make with this tax?

    Not to mention all the administrative and printing costs.

    The whole thing is a farce. It was never going to be a case of the vast majority paying and the government having to go after a few deviants :D

    The new government is as stupid as the last one.


  • Options
    #8048
    Chucky the tree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Chucky the tree


    smash wrote: »
    Donal do you realise that they'll spend more money paying the debt collection agencies than they'll make with this tax?


    But they won't.


  • Options
    #8049
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    smash wrote: »
    Donal do you realise that they'll spend more money paying the debt collection agencies than they'll make with this tax?

    Well that depends on how they go about chasing up the non payers. The LA could simply send an Invoice which wont cost a huge amount, or they could simpy do nothing and when they have compiled the database for the property tax they can cross reference that with those that have registered or not for the household charge and add any outstanding payments including fines on to the first years property tax.


  • Options
    #8050
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Chucky the tree wrote: »
    But they won't.
    Yes they will. How many contracted hours do you think will be put into each €100 charge that's not paid?

    Think about data collection, phone calls, printed materials too.
    donalg1 wrote: »
    they could simpy do nothing and when they have compiled the database for the property tax they can cross reference that with those that have registered or not for the household charge and add any outstanding payments including fines on to the first years property tax.
    Which again, will not be paid.


  • Options
    #8051
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Ghandee wrote: »
    Well, I believe that unless more than 800,000 people have registered by Sat (less than 51%) the charge must be scrapped.
    Why?

    If you were to take that line, you'd be shocked by the level of income tax returns which aren't filed by the deadline.

    There are a number of important figures. The next-day figure is useful because it gives some idea of the level of sentiment.

    A "good" return is 85% - i.e. 85% of all eligible people pay the tax. That would be in line with most other taxes. So we might expect that if there's a good public sentiment, at least half will have paid by the deadline date, or 42.5%.

    But there's not a good sentiment here, so 42.5% by Saturday is cloud cuckoo land.

    More important figures are the 14-day figures (i.e. the total who have paid within 14 days of the deadline expiring) and the 12-week figures.

    If the government is still languishing in return figures below 50% after 3 months of the deadline date have passed, they're in trouble. At that stage anything above 60/65% would be an indicator of general compliance, though with strong necessity to follow up.

    IMO if at least 25% have paid by midnight on Sunday, the anti-tax lobby is toast. Of course on Friday & Saturday they will announce extensive problems with their online payment systems coping with the massive demand and extend the deadline to the following Tuesday or Wednesday...


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #8052
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    donalg1 wrote: »
    Well that depends on how they go about chasing up the non payers. The LA could simply send an Invoice which wont cost a huge amount, or they could simpy do nothing and when they have compiled the database for the property tax they can cross reference that with those that have registered or not for the household charge and add any outstanding payments including fines on to the first years property tax.

    But thats what they are attempting to complie now?

    Asking us to register (even exempt households) so they know who owns what and where.

    If enough refuse to pay/register, no database.


  • Options
    #8053
    Chucky the tree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Chucky the tree


    Ghandee wrote: »
    If they havent yet realised by now that the latest VAT increase has failed, (ask any high street retailer) this would be disastrous.

    More money in peoples pockets, will mean more money available to spend.

    Public spending is one essential key to help a struggling economy, the dogs on the street know this.



    VAT intake has been higher in the first two months this year than last year.


  • Options
    #8054
    Chucky the tree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Chucky the tree


    smash wrote: »
    Yes they will. How many contracted hours do you think will be put into each €100 charge that's not paid?

    Think about data collection, phone calls, printed materials too.


    Which again, will not be paid.


    If someone has a debt collector on their door do you think they won't pay it ever? Over the first year it might cost more, but in the long term when people start complying then the tax intake will far outweigh the cost of it.


  • Options
    #8055
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    Ghandee wrote: »
    But thats what they are attempting to complie now?

    Asking us to register (even exempt households) so they know who owns what and where.

    If enough refuse to pay/register, no database.

    Hardly they will simply realise you cant rely on people to do it, so they will just do it themselves


  • Options
    #8056
    DerryRed
    Registered Users Posts: 472 ✭✭DerryRed


    4 years ago we had to setup a Residents Association in our estate as the local council was refusing to cut the considerable green areas after the builder handed over the estate to them. At the time they said they didn't have the money. We eventually ended up going door to door collecting money to get this done privately and have been doing so each year since.

    As soon as our association get a letter from the council telling us that they'll start cutting our green areas (after payment of the €100 charge) I'll send them the money.


  • Options
    #8057
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    prinz wrote: »
    ................At my signal, unleash hell....... or at least an angry rant on boards.ie

    Or just do nothing.................. that's the beauty of it.
    Chucky the tree wrote: »
    If someone has a debt collector on their door do you think they won't pay it ever? Over the first year it might cost more, but in the long term when people start complying then the tax intake will far outweigh the cost of it.

    How long left til the next general election again.................
    How long left til the next local elections...........


  • Options
    #8058
    lugha
    Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    Lordsutch wrote: »
    While I agree about the standing together on this issue, I certainly do not want the Government to fold, I just want them to be taught a lesson, ala Mrs Thatch and the Poll tax in the 80s.
    Out of curiosity, what lesson do you want them to be taught? People don't like horrible things like taxes and charges and they shouldn't be bothering us with them?
    mikom wrote: »
    Fix the tyre first............... and don't forget the potholes as well.

    Ah, but previously, and if the no side succeed, which they might (temporarily!) do, then we will return to funding councils from the central exchequer. If there is an imperative that monies be spent in a prudent way (and there is), then surely the very same imperative exists whether the councils are funded by this new charge or directly?

    The taxpayer is picking up the tab either way, and should be getting value for money. So the mode of funding is surely irrelevant?


  • Options
    #8059
    Paparazzo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,398 ✭✭✭Paparazzo


    Sky King wrote: »
    Asumming a million households dont pay and they send a pair around to each of them and each visit takes a minute on average (very unlikely) you're looking at 33 thousand man-hours in calling around to people. That's pricey.

    I reckon they won't be doing that!

    And if it did happen, don't forget to include a lot of people not answering their doors because they're expecting these guys coming around and not answering questions truthfully. "My name is John Smith. I don't own this house".
    They'll have to be trained up too. And how many council workers will want to go around as tax collecters? They'll need to wear body armour!


  • Options
    #8060
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Chucky the tree wrote: »
    If someone has a debt collector on their door do you think they won't pay it ever?
    Pretty much. It's already been said that nobody will go to prison for non compliance.
    Chucky the tree wrote: »
    Over the first year it might cost more, but in the long term when people start complying then the tax intake will far outweigh the cost of it.
    Long term? They're saying they need the money now, they're not thinking long term.


  • Options
    #8061
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    DerryRed wrote: »
    4 years ago we had to setup a Residents Association in our estate as the local council was refusing to cut the considerable green areas after the builder handed over the estate to them. At the time they said they didn't have the money. We eventually ended up going door to door collecting money to get this done privately and have been doing so each year since.

    As soon as our association get a letter from the council telling us that they'll start cutting our green areas (after payment of the €100 charge) I'll send them the money.

    Why would they cut your green areas, these areas are not included in the taking in charge of estates, it would have been clear at the time the estate was being taken in charge


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #8062
    H2UMrsRobinson
    Registered Users Posts: 763 ✭✭✭H2UMrsRobinson


    delaad wrote: »
    Sounds like you might have paid already.

    Incorrect assumption - whether or not my landlord pays or doesn't is up to him. Whether or not he passes on the charge through my rent is also up to him, as is my decision to rent from him!
    Biggins wrote: »
    As above!
    Many of the above points has been gone over again and again here.

    My point exactly the No's think they're doing the right and just thing - as do the yes's, who's right ? Who knows ?
    BostonB wrote: »
    Not sure doing what the Govt asks, forces it to change. :confused:

    I meant that those who are paying, rightly or wrongly, think they are enabling a change in the current situation. they want things to get better and feel that by being good citzens this may happen. I have tenfold more empathy for these people than I do for people draining the system on a daily basis claiming benefits they're not entitled to - this should make people angry - not innocent people calmly paying their taxes.

    BarackPyjama wrote: »
    So the vast majority of home owners fall into a cycle of debt to the government who restrict their ability to sell their homes? Yeah, that should work out really well. Until that majority publicly lash back at the government with venom and aggression.

    The way people cede to the government in this country makes me laugh. We're a pathetic bunch, we really are. The government work for me. I'm their boss. Not the other way around. What we should be telling them is that they need to find a proper solution for taxation to deal with our current problems and not an extortionate, menacing and permanent tax on peoples' homes. They don't want to listen to this and want to continue disobey us? We need to tear the f**king walls down, drag them out of their seats and show them who's boss.

    Time to stand up for yourselves people.

    And more people are standing up for themselves than are paying their household charge so the majority agree with you. I'm saying if you're going to make a stand you've got to see it through to the end not give up in December because you now owe €142.


  • Options
    #8063
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    Chucky the tree wrote: »
    If someone has a debt collector on their door do you think they won't pay it ever? Over the first year it might cost more, but in the long term when people start complying then the tax intake will far outweigh the cost of it.

    How many people will claim they gave over €100 to a debt collector?

    Completely open for conmen to have a field day imo.


  • Options
    #8064
    Chucky the tree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Chucky the tree


    smash wrote: »
    Pretty much. It's already been said that nobody will go to prison for non compliance.

    Long term? They're saying they need the money now, they're not thinking long term.



    People go to prison for non-compliance of a court fine though. At the end of the day they get the €160m, either through this charge or through other taxes. However once they clamp down on this one, then people will fall into line.
    Ghandee wrote: »
    How many people will claim they gave over €100 to a debt collector?

    Completely open for conmen to have a field day imo.


    Why would this go to a debt collector actually? I'd be pretty sure it would be done by the government/council/revenue.


  • Options
    #8065
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    lugha wrote: »

    The taxpayer is picking up the tab either way, and should be getting value for money. So the mode of funding is surely irrelevant?

    Keep your grubby hands off the family home is what I am saying.
    I will not have a ground rent hanging over my paid for house each and every year.

    Fix the wastage then come back to me with a funding model that encompasses all taxpayers and does not exclude those in county council or corporation houses, halting sites and caravans.
    If this charge is truly for services then the occupants of these abodes use just as much if not more than the owner occupier.

    Unfairness does not even begin to describe it.
    You cope on you own, pull your own weight......... and all you get is a hand out looking for more.


  • Options
    #8066
    sunflower27
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,822 ✭✭✭sunflower27


    Chucky the tree wrote: »
    People go to prison for non-compliance of a court fine though. At the end of the day they get the €160m, either through this charge or through other taxes. However once they clamp down on this one, then people will fall into line.




    Why would this go to a debt collector actually? I'd be pretty sure it would be done by the government/council/revenue.

    So they are going to then send all the nonpayers to prison? Riiiight :D


  • Options
    #8067
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    mikom wrote: »
    If this charge is truly for services then the occupants of these abodes use just as much if not more than the owner occupier.Unfairness does not even begin to describe it.
    You cope on you own, pull your own weight......... and all you get is a hand out looking for more.

    Do you see the irony in this though? What's to stop people who have paid the charge levelling the same accusations against those who choose not to... It doesn't apply to me personally but my parents have stumped up the cash, with the two of them living on one pension between them, having been hard working law abiding citizens all their lives. Why should they pay up when the 30 something next door sticks two fingers up and decides not to? Where is the fairness in that?


  • Options
    #8068
    username123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    sunflower27 wrote: »
    So they are going to then send all the nonpayers to prison? Riiiight :D

    You know it might benefit me to go to prison for a while, I have some dental work that needs doing thats so expensive that I cant afford it, I hear they have a hairdressers in the womens prison in Mountjoy - that would be a treat, and Ive a few niggling health issues that could do with being addressed by a physio etc....

    I could also do with the free education, the free use of a gym and my own telly that I dont pay the NTL on. All in all, it could be just the holiday I need.


  • Options
    #8069
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    Chucky the tree wrote: »
    If someone has a debt collector on their door do you think they won't pay it ever? .
    Why would this go to a debt collector actually? I'd be pretty sure it would be done by the government/council/revenue.

    You asked the question:confused:

    Debt collector: Someone who collects a debt. (is the clue not in the name?)


  • Options
    #8070
    DerryRed
    Registered Users Posts: 472 ✭✭DerryRed


    donalg1 wrote: »
    Why would they cut your green areas, these areas are not included in the taking in charge of estates, it would have been clear at the time the estate was being taken in charge

    They should cut our green areas because it was in the agreement that was signed when we bought our houses. It said that "the green areas will be maintained by the developer until such time that the council takes over the estate and responsibility of this maintenance".

    When the time came for the council to take over they refused to do it because of "lack of funds". They agreed to give us a grant towards the cutting if we raised some funds ourselves. We did so and of course every year since the grant has been cut in half, due to "lack of funds"

    There are multiple estates in our local area. Older estates have the funding of their grass cutting paid in full by the council and the newer estates don't. If the problem is down to a "lack of funds", then I'm assuming that if we pay the charge they'll be able to do it.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #8071
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    'Naivety' seems to be today's word, and it's a trait that seems to be in much evidence on the 'no side'.

    Frightening to think that presumably some of these people were trusted with mortgages of hundreds of thousands of euro.


This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement