Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

dvpower

Am Chile wrote: »

Legal advice that has being obtained on the matter.

What legal advise? Can you publish it (or are you making it up)?

dxhound2005

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Less than 50% and I will make a wager with you.

If on the 1st of April 2012 the number of people who have registered for the household charge exceeds 51% I will never post in this forum again, neither should you

Agreed??

You specify an exact percentage like I have done.

zumi

Check this out, info on the big protest.

http://nohouseholdtax.org/category/news/

paddy147

zumi wrote: »

Check this out, info on the big protest.

http://nohouseholdtax.org/category/news/

There will also be a massive protest outside the centre where FG will be having their Ard Fheis.

I cant wait to see what bullsh1t excuses Enda Kenny says to his "followers" then,when there are thousands outside protesting,shouting and chanting

Mits

I'll pay it. I don't like it but I will pay. I will also pay when it goes up next year and every other year. I will pay it until I can no longer afford it.

Because the ****ers will get you eventually and it will cost you more.

paddy147

Mits wrote: »

I'll pay it. I don't like it but I will pay. I will also pay when it goes up next year and every other year. I will pay it until I can no longer afford it.

Because the ****ers will get you eventually and it will cost you more.

I wonder will you still say that though,if this pending court case proves that its unlawfull and illegal tax??

zumi

I'll be travelling from Galway to go to it, I have never protested about anything before but this is something I have to do.
Im sick of taking it all the time and Im not rolling over anymore.

dvpower

paddy147 wrote: »

I wonder will you still say that though,if this pending court case proves that its unlawfull and illegal tax??

If you're talking about the Irish language thing, that's going nowhere and everyone knows it.

Gingernuts31

dvpower wrote: »

If you're talking about the Irish language thing, that's going nowhere and everyone knows it.

Correct especially since it is going to to come out in Irish after the TD made a big deal out of it. Id love to know what people are going to do when the ESB gives the government their details and they can cross check who has and hasn't paid. Either way the government will get it. Be it by deducting from social welfare, wages(maybe an extra tax on your payslip), added onto your electricity bill. The way they can get is alot more than simply showing up to a meeting for someone to tell you you don't have to pay bla bla bla. You may not want to pay it or agree thats its lawfull but what the government wants they will get 1 way or another and the sooner people realise that the better.

alastair

tayto lover wrote: »

I will try and make it easier for you to understand.

1. I own my home and the site. My house does not damage the road because it does not move.
2. I own my car but not the road. My car does damage the road because it does move.

I pay taxes on my car because the roads it damages and which have to be kept in good repair are not mine.
I won't pay a property tax because my house does not cause damage and I already paid Stamp Duty on it.
There now. Simple. Hope you get it now.

Simple if you choose not to grasp some realities:

Motor tax isn't anything about damage to roads. The clue is in the name. Motor tax currently has a linkage to carbon emissions, but then your house is a pretty considerable carbon emitter too. We don't have a road tax, and we don't target any specific tax revenues towards the maintainance of roads. Your household charge looks after the roads just as much as your motor tax. The range of revenues garnered from your car (VRT (if you imported), Motor tax, Drivers Licence, NCT, associated consumption taxation) stand regardless of what sales tax applied when you bought the car. I paid stamp duty on my home, even though it was a first time buyer deal, subsequently others didn't have to. No whinging about that fact - it was the taxation reality of the day. That I had to pay a sales tax at the time has nothing to do with the justice of a property tax now. Property taxes are about as equitable a form of taxation as you can model - being largely about actual, eh, equity.

There's the crux of the matter. We all know that taxation levels are too low in this country - that even if the hole that the banking system dug for us was ignored, we're still not on a sustainable footing in terms of revenue. That money will have to come from somewhere, and to pretend that a property tax shouldn't form part of that future is both blinkered and misguided.

billybudd

Gingernuts31 wrote: »

Correct especially since it is going to to come out in Irish after the TD made a big deal out of it. Id love to know what people are going to do when the ESB gives the government their details and they can cross check who has and hasn't paid. Either way the government will get it. Be it by deducting from social welfare, wages(maybe an extra tax on your payslip), added onto your electricity bill. The way they can get is alot more than simply showing up to a meeting for someone to tell you you don't have to pay bla bla bla. You may not want to pay it or agree thats its lawfull but what the government wants they will get 1 way or another and the sooner people realise that the better.

This is not true as there has been plenty of cases where the government has back tracked over certain things because of unpopular opinion and anyway that is not a good mind frame to have as with unity government becomes powerless.

This will become a huge issue over the next few weeks as only a small percentage have registered and in truth the government probaly are in the mire with this one especially with a treaty coming up that they have to get a yes vote with and they may have to use this as a softner to get people on board for a yes vote.

alastair

billybudd wrote: »

This is not true as there has been plenty of cases where the government has back tracked over certain things because of unpopular opinion and anyway that is not a good mind frame to have as with unity government becomes powerless.

This will become a huge issue over the next few weeks as only a small percentage have registered and in truth the government probaly are in the mire with this one especially with a treaty coming up that they have to get a yes vote with and they may have to use this as a softner to get people on board for a yes vote.

The govt are likely to be rather more swayed by the various holes they need to fill with the inevitable revenue stream that the household charge will bring. They can't afford to backtrack.

billybudd

alastair wrote: »

The govt are likely to be rather more swayed by the various holes they need to fill with the inevitable revenue stream that the household charge will bring. They can't afford to backtrack.

In the greater scheme of things the €100 this will bring in from each household is not that much, its a prelude to a bigger charge, if you want to make bigger savings and to bring in better fiscal gain then this country needs only to become more efficient and with a poupulation of over four million that should not be as hard as is proving to be.

alastair

billybudd wrote: »

In the greater scheme of things the €100 this will bring in from each household is not that much, its a prelude to a bigger charge, if you want to make bigger savings and to bring in better fiscal gain then this country needs only to become more efficient and with a poupulation of over four million that should not be as hard as is proving to be.

Exactly - It's not about the €100 a year. It's about the real revenue stream that a tiered property tax will bring. 'Bigger savings' will hurt a lot more than a property tax, and those who will feel the pain the worst won't thank you for it. You think you can shave an additional billion a year off welfare, education and health provision and justify it as less harmful than a property tax that provides the same revenues?

Chucky the tree

Irish people are experts at leaving things until the last minute, just visit any off-license in Ireland the day before Good friday. I don't think this will be much different, people will leave it late but the alot more will sign up and it will probably go past 50%. Then all the Government has to do is pick one non-payer and make an example of him in the courts and then even more will jump on board.

demanufactured

www.nohouseholdtax.org

dxhound2005

billybudd wrote: »

This is not true as there has been plenty of cases where the government has back tracked over certain things because of unpopular opinion and anyway that is not a good mind frame to have as with unity government becomes powerless.

This will become a huge issue over the next few weeks as only a small percentage have registered and in truth the government probaly are in the mire with this one especially with a treaty coming up that they have to get a yes vote with and they may have to use this as a softner to get people on board for a yes vote.

The treaty referendum should stand on it's on merits although I suppose some people will vote NO just because they have been asked for €5 to inspect their septic tank to make sure it is not causing pollution. Or they think a property tax is unfair or unjust.

But this so called huge campaign is not going anywhere and the percentage who pay will not be small. Even Mick Wallace on that Vincent Browne programme said more than once that 500,000 people would not pay by 31 March so on that basis he is accepting that over 60% will have paid. I don't hear much from Luke Flanagan about this issue since he got his deal for the turf cutters. Once again I will ask why some owners of private property are placing their trust in a group of independents who just want to get re-elected and the Socialist and Socialist Workers parties who want to destroy capitalism to look after their interests.

alastair

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Once again I will ask why some owners of private property are placing their trust in a group of independents who just want to get re-elected and the Socialist and Socialist Workers parties who want to destroy capitalism to look after their interests.

Hmm. I'm paying the charge, and support the principle of a property tax (as long as it takes account of ability to pay). Most socialists would support the property tax mechanism too - the only real sticky points for the household charge being the current flat rate applied, and the lack of exemptions for those who can't afford to pay. I also voted for an independent, and I'm pretty sure she wants to get re-elected about as much as any other TD - left, right, or otherwise. This isn't a left v right issue.

dvpower

demanufactured wrote: »

www.nohouseholdtax.org

How many people have signed up and paid €5 to join the campaign?
Very few I'd say. If they had big numbers they would be shouting it from the rooftops.

gerryo777

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Irish people are experts at leaving things until the last minute, just visit any off-license in Ireland the day before Good friday. I don't think this will be much different, people will leave it late but the alot more will sign up and it will probably go past 50%.

Don't know about that, if you look at the poll on this thread there is a definite swing towards the not going to pay side, the don't knows are reducing and the no's are increasing.
The government are in trouble on this one.

Even if it goes 'past 50%', that's a hell of a lot of people they're going to have to chase.

DON'T REGISTER / DON'T PAY

demanufactured

dvpower wrote: »

How many people have signed up and paid €5 to join the campaign?
Very few I'd say. If they had big numbers they would be shouting it from the rooftops.

Look at the videos of the people protesting
A LOT have signed up locally to me, Have been attending the meetings regularly.

demanufactured

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXIIieaQf-w

dxhound2005

gerryo777 wrote: »

Don't know about that, if you look at the poll on this thread there is a definite swing towards the not going to pay side, the don't knows are reducing and the no's are increasing.
The government are in trouble on this one.

Even if it goes 'past 50%', that's a hell of a lot of people they're going to have to chase.

DON'T REGISTER / DON'T PAY

Over 50% and the tax is in to stay. And the rest will provide a nice bit of extra income for the government when they pay up later.

gerryo777

dvpower wrote: »

How many people have signed up and paid €5 to join the campaign?
Very few I'd say. If they had big numbers they would be shouting it from the rooftops.

Nobody has to do anything in order to campaign on this, it's very simple, just DON'T REGISTER / DON'T PAY.

JOB DONE!

This has got to be the simplest protest anyone in this country has ever had to make!

demanufactured

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvuEy_4mMpY

Chucky the tree

gerryo777 wrote: »

Don't know about that, if you look at the poll on this thread there is a definite swing towards the not going to pay side, the don't knows are reducing and the no's are increasing.
The government are in trouble on this one.

Even if it goes 'past 50%', that's a hell of a lot of people they're going to have to chase.

DON'T REGISTER / DON'T PAY

Boards polls are a very poor example though. As I said they will only have to chase one and make an example, then the large majority will give in.

alastair

gerryo777 wrote: »

Nobody has to do anything in order to campaign on this, it's very simple, just DON'T REGISTER / DON'T PAY.

JOB DONE!

This has got to be the simplest protest anyone in this country has ever had to make!

The only problem being that ignoring the charge won't actually make it go away. Other than that...

dxhound2005

alastair wrote: »

Hmm. I'm paying the charge, and support the principle of a property tax (as long as it takes account of ability to pay). Most socialists would support the property tax mechanism too - the only real sticky points for the household charge being the current flat rate applied, and the lack of exemptions for those who can't afford to pay. I also voted for an independent, and I'm pretty sure she wants to get re-elected about as much as any other TD - left, right, or otherwise. This isn't a left v right issue.

According to some people here there is a massive resistance to the charge so Fine Gael and Labour TD's must be making themselves unelectable next time round by introducing it. Some of the Socialist elements definitely want to use the issue to disrupt the capitalist system. Like Richard Boyd Barrett who although he had a private fee paying Catholic education has turned into a Marxist.

dvpower

demanufactured wrote: »

Look at the videos of the people protesting
A LOT have signed up locally to me, Have been attending the meetings regularly.

Why are they not releasing the numbers?
They've been promising people that they would provide lawyers to fight any court cases but they haven't indicated how much they have raised for this.
I suspect that their numbers are small and they have no money.

gerryo777

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Over 50% and the tax is in to stay. And the rest will provide a nice bit of extra income for the government when they pay up later.

Yea, it'll be funny to see them try and take 800,000 people to court.

So are you admitting there that if less than 50% pay up that this tax is going to be scrapped.
Interesting admission from one of the pro-tax brigade.