Dental Implants...advice needed

Zipppy

OK so my teeth are a bit of a mess..
Few crowns here n there (incl front teeth .. they were slightly out of line always so about 10 years ago I decided to get them crowned...should have gotten braces ..have lost bone under front teeth too due to infection)

Bottom I'm missing loads and have been using a partial denure for years, now the main tooth holding denture in place, also a crown on a post, has come out...got her cemented back on today but I reckon she's gonna give again eventually

What a mess...

I reckon I'll eventually need two implants (plus bone ) for my front teeth, and debating get three on botton (one to replace tooth that came out and two more, hopefully meaning I can dump denture)

So maybe 5 implants 10,000+ at my local dentist....less 20% tax relief..

Assuming I go this route what's my options?? NI? Uk? Hungary?

or maybe I should just get them all out and get dentures LOL

helimachoptor

Do a search for going abroad there are more than a few horror stories OP.

Oral Surgeon

helimachoptor wrote: »

Do a search for going abroad there are more than a few horror stories OP.

Yes indeed, I saw another shocker last week, worst to date...

OP, dental implants are a great way to replace missing teeth. Please do proper research into the qualifications and experience of the clinicians involved (not just what they claim to be!!) and not just by price alone.

I'm going to call a spade a spade here; dental tourism dental makeovers/ rehabilitations are pure crap.

OS

lob020

Has anyone ever heard of this clinic ****mod edit no names**** offering inexpensive treatment .I`m thinking of arranging consultation,if anybody has any experience with them ,please let me know

btkm8unsl0w5r4

lob020 wrote: »

Has anyone ever heard of this clinic ****mod edit no names**** offering inexpensive treatment .I`m thinking of arranging consultation,if anybody has any experience with them ,please let me know

No names please, look at the smile gallery on the link you posted and it will tell you everything you need to know about the standard of dentistry there, shocking stuff. Heres one....ha ha ha

Morris Code

I'm going to call a spade a spade here; dental tourism dental makeovers/ rehabilitations are pure crap.

OS
Oh really -thats a very sweeping statement-to condemn all dental tourism as call it.I needed a lot of work several years ago-spent months doing research on it and ended up going to Hungary.I was delighted with the work and was very impressed with the ultra modern clinic I found myself in.The work was excellent and in 4/5 years I have had no problems., and I got it done for a third of what it would have cost here.

Oral Surgeon

Morris Code wrote: »

I'm going to call a spade a spade here; dental tourism dental makeovers/ rehabilitations are pure crap.

OS
Oh really -thats a very sweeping statement-to condemn all dental tourism as call it.I needed a lot of work several years ago-spent months doing research on it and ended up going to Hungary.I was delighted with the work and was very impressed with the ultra modern clinic I found myself in.The work was excellent and in 4/5 years I have had no problems., and I got it done for a third of what it would have cost here.

It sure is a sweeping statement but I've seen enough botched jobs to make it justified. It's great that you are happy but you are one person and I've seen many many patients who are not so happy.....
As I have posted many times; there are good and bad dentists here and abroad. What makes dental tourism bad is that because of flights/ distances/ hotels etc- these clinics preform vast treatment plans in an unrealistic timeframe leading to a drop in standards and ultimately failure of treatment. The problem then is that because they treated every tooth in your head in one week, when it fails, it does so in the most horrible and expensive fashion.

I'm sure that there are clinics in Hungary who practice sound dentistry (e.g. one or two restorations at a time, one root canal at a time, high quality crowns made in a lab over 2 weeks etc....) but these clinics are not so attractive to the irish dental tourist who only wants it all done ASAP.... The patient does not know best all the time and patients should not dictate the treatment plan and treatment sequence and timing if it compromises the result.....

OS

cloneslad

My implant treatment started with the xray and initial consultation in early October and won't finish until the end of may/start of June. This does not include the number years I have been consulting with my dentist about getting it done.

This same treatment could have been rushed if I went to Hungary/Poland etc, over a one week period.

I'm also not getting lots of work done that I don't need, but get offered and carried out, just because 'it costs 1/3rd of the price back home'.

I also have a 15 minute drive to go to my dentist should anything go wrong, plus they're fully insured.

I know which method I'd prefer.

lob020

apologies for earlier post with name and address of clinic.
I notice over the last number of years ,the rants from Oral Surgeon and Fitzgeme,who do these guys represent ?obviously vested interests here in Ireland.
Surely not all clinics in Hungary ,Poland etc are bad .
The clinic I refer to is actually here in Ireland,the website contains details and case histories.I dont understand Fitzgeme s comment re the standard of surgery ,they show a before and after picture of patient -is it the after picture he s laughing at?
I really dont think Fitzgeme should be amused ,unless hes laughing at the general population who continue to pay exhorbitant prices to dentists here at home.
On a recent UK forum it was suggested that the vast majority of profits for implants are surgeon/dentist fees - up to 2000 % in some cases.Its no wonder that vested interests here want to retain the status quo,rubbish all foreign clinics and treatment ,dont forget many of our specialists here in Ireland were actually trained in the foreign clinics.
My main point is that you have to do your research & go with the best quality combined with best value,there are as many bad dentists here in Ireland as any where else.
I notice Oral Surgeon only refers to poor work by foreign clinics ,which hes had to repair ,why not local dentists as well ?
BTW I represent nobody,please Oral Surgeon & Fitzgeme come clean & tell us all who you represent otherwise this forum is totally biased & not worth bothering with

helimachoptor

lob020 wrote: »

apologies for earlier post with name and address of clinic.
I notice over the last number of years ,the rants from Oral Surgeon and Fitzgeme,who do these guys represent ?obviously vested interests here in Ireland.
Surely not all clinics in Hungary ,Poland etc are bad .
The clinic I refer to is actually here in Ireland,the website contains details and case histories.I dont understand Fitzgeme s comment re the standard of surgery ,they show a before and after picture of patient -is it the after picture he s laughing at?
I really dont think Fitzgeme should be amused ,unless hes laughing at the general population who continue to pay exhorbitant prices to dentists here at home.
On a recent UK forum it was suggested that the vast majority of profits for implants are surgeon/dentist fees - up to 2000 % in some cases.Its no wonder that vested interests here want to retain the status quo,rubbish all foreign clinics and treatment ,dont forget many of our specialists here in Ireland were actually trained in the foreign clinics.
My main point is that you have to do your research & go with the best quality combined with best value,there are as many bad dentists here in Ireland as any where else.
I notice Oral Surgeon only refers to poor work by foreign clinics ,which hes had to repair ,why not local dentists as well ?
BTW I represent nobody,please Oral Surgeon & Fitzgeme come clean & tell us all who you represent otherwise this forum is totally biased & not worth bothering with

Oral surgeon.. is... an Oral Surgeon..
fitz is a dentist.

Both have had experiences cleaning up after people have went abroad for treatment.

Regarding the picture.. i'm not a dentist but the after picture leaves a lot to be desired from the treatment from an aesthethic point of view. I'm sure OS and Fitz see a lot more wrong with it.

lob020

I know who they are & their professional status ,they have clinics here that they want to protect ,thats understandable -however who do they represent ?

helimachoptor

No one. They offer advice and information here free of charge, which they do not have to do.
Not only could that have an impact on their own practices it also could have an impact of other practices.

While you may think they have ulterior motives in telling people not to go abroad.
When I'm sure each week they see people who've spent thousands going to Eastern Europe for a holiday and months worth of treatment crammed into a week. Those people then have to spend thousands more getting restorative treatment with an Irish dentist.

Frankly if Fitz and OS wanted to make cash.. they could be telling people to go abroad and then make a fortune cleaning up the increased number of dental car crashes they look at.

lob020

Its now only the people who have had major work done in a very short period of time when abroad that we are referring to.
Does that mean the reputable clinics who perform major restorative work over a 6/8 month period which generally entails 3/4 visits & many now have clinics here in Ireland who perform OPGs & minor maintenance work are ok .
Would it be possible for Fitzgeme to give us the breakdown of costs for a straightforward implant ,without bone implant.
I commend both Fitzgeme & Oral Surgeon for their commitment to Quality Dentistry here in Ireland,forgive my cynicism -theres always an agenda
These people are probably paying high rents & high salaries to their staff,which is the main reason for high costs apart from owners profit ,thats a very good reason for dissuading people going abroad -throw in a lot of smoke screens re shoddy work ,poor aftercare etc to frighten general public.
With all due respects to Heli ,Ill await response from Our Professionals with interest

cloneslad

I'm sure oral surgeon and Fitzgeme don't think that all dentists in eastern europe are bad.

If you lived in one of these eastern european countries and were able to space out your treatment over a prolonged period of time, and also do some research on the dentist / surgeon and choose one, then I'm sure you'd get quite good treatment.

it's the fact that they have to rush their treatment for dental tourism, so corners get cut, work gets done too quickly, and they know you have no comeback should anything go wrong so they don't mind giving you a rushed job.

As for your question about getting and implant, without any bone implant. Mine is costing me about €2,600 plus change. This includes all x rays, the implant, the tooth itself, and the local anaesthetic.

It doesn't include the cost of the denture, which I already had (€280) or having to get the tooth pulled (which was done years ago), it also doesn't cover the cost of being sedated (as I didn't feel the need to have any, this would have cost about another €350-400), It also didn't cover the cost for having any bone graft/implant, as I didn't need it. (think it would have cost €400 or more)

cloneslad

Oh, and just as a side note in Fitzgeme's defense.

I sent him a PM about 8-9 months ago when I broke my denture and finally decided upon getting the implant done, as I wanted to get some more information on the procedure, the costs and some information on a periodontist I had been given the name of.

He gave me some good advice, and refused to pimp out his own dental practice, even over PM, as he just wanted to provide a helpful insight.

Preaching about the negatives of going abroad on this site will get OS and fitzgeme very few extra clients anyway as the chance of people on this site being in the same location as their practices are very slim and they vast amount of Irish dentists also offering the treatment would inevitably mean that you and I live closer to a dentist offering the service, than we do to theirs.

Chuck Stone

Does anyone here who claims that work done abroad is poor have evidence other than their own apparent confirmation bias?

People who have had successful work carried out abroad are hardly going to turn up to a dentist so that the dentist can get a broad sample which leads to his/her forming an opinion on some vestige of empiricism.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Ok if you check my post history you will see my views on this matter are well defined and consistent. I am a dental specialist who specializes in large scale dental work and retreatment of inadequate or failed dentistry ( In other words the worse the job you get done is the more money I will make, so really I should keep my mouth shut) . I see patients from the ROI, NI, Boarder counties, portugal, UK, Singapore. Germany, Poland, Romania, Latvia, Bulgaria, Spain and the US amount others. I don't undertake large treatments for patients that live elsewhere, most to see me come to me because they live here now. but it gives me a good idea of the standard of dentistry in various countries and generally is all pretty similar. The good dentistry is good and the bad stuff is bad.

However one cohort of my patients that stick out like a sore thumb are those sent to me for retreatment after they travel abroad for large scale treatment. The scale of the problems is alarming for these people. I have posted about this, outlined my position, provided photographic and radiographic evidence again and again and again. I have posted dozens of cases on boards.ie (with patients permission) and have dozens more. Are there a large proportion of people who have had good treatment....I don't see it and I see a lot of people. Often people come to me for problems unrelated to work they have had done abroad, and this too usually is sup optimal. Is there a silent population of happy dental tourists, I cannot rule that out, I can only give my experience and that matches with most dentists.

Why do I do this? Because people ask for advice, and this is my advice. As the founder of the dental issues forum I have a lot of experience dealing with posters and many years experience as a dentist and dental specialist. I give this advice free of charge and mostly it is taken in the manner it was given, graciously and without prejudice.

I dont shill my own clinic, I do recommend dentists (never myself unless they ask for me) to people who ask and only by PM and it depends on where they are. People who are looking for low cost alternatives would unfortunately find my type of dentistry too expensive and time consuming (although I am by no means expensive relative to my peers). I alway advise that large scale treatment is done locally and over extended periods of time. This is because its the best way to do it. Dentistry is a relationship that should last for many years. Its not fire and forget. People require maintenance and aftercare buy the treating dentist. This is a very important part.

My agenda is to give the best advice I know. Now unfortunately my position is the hard one, its the one that does not accept that you can get good treatment for little money. This is a hard pill to swallow as its not what people want to hear. I never have said that dentistry is other countries is poor quality, the dentists are inferior or that all people who have treatment end up needing my services. However there is an alarming proportion of people for whom treatment is a total mess largely due to the time limits inherent in dental tourism. I have always maintained its up to each person to weight the cost:risk as judge for themselves if its for them. I ask myself when making recommendations, what would I be proud to do or recommend for my family and friends, what would I want in my own mouth.

Make of the advice here what you will. We in ireland are not the only dentists that feel the need to warn patients of the risks, the GDC in the UK warn, the ADA in the US warn and the German dental association warn. These are all available online and I have post links to them many times before.

So thats my agenda, I know the people who will listen to good advice and those that will not. The fact that I know that my good advice will not be followed is no reason not to give it. However I know for a fact that I have save a number of people from a life time of dental trouble and that makes taking the predictable abuse from posters who don't want to hear or have their own agenda worth while.

As for the after photo above, to put that up as a example of your work is not a good sign, I think even the non dentist there would find those teeth look terrible. The look is a sign of the level of attention to detail and time that has gone into the work, if that little care goes into the bits you can see can you imagine the bits you cannot?

As for the markup on implants its nowhere near 2000% ( god I wish it was). However the cost of the bolts is irrelevant. You want a portrait, do you think the painter considers the cost of the paint? Do you assume the painter works on a percentage on the cost of materials. Dentistry is a science and art, its is not a consumer good. Like the painter costs are one factor but the larger part is the training, skill, and time it took to learn how to do the job. There are also equipment and staff costs but again this make it sound like its a consumer good like on dragons den, its not. I could increase the markup buy buying in cheap un certified and untested implant systems and laboratory I suppose, but thats not a compromise I am will to make for my patients even if it means that keyboard warriors get to wave the expensive stick at me.

Some links for those too lazy to search, hell try trip advisor also, that becoming a place to see what really happens to dental tourists.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055628532
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056058173&page=2
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showt...p?t=2055998870
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055998870
http://www.dentist.ie/resources/jida/articles/2007/JIDA_Winter07.pdf
http://www.gdc-uk.org/NR/rdonlyres/9...lcareFINAL.pdf
http://www.ada.org/3029.aspx?currentTab=1

Regards

Fitzgeme

Chuck Stone

You didn't really answer my question and instead went on the defensive. I'm not questioning your integrity.

All I'm asking for is some sort of evidence that shows that people who travel for dental work have worse outcomes than those who stay local.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

check my links 3rd last in particular, then come back with how that not sufficient evidence, or not of suitable quality, what I want to know is where is the evidence that patients do have similar outcomes by the clinics that promote this stuff, long term 10 year outcomes. Dentist here have practices with patient that come back if there are problems, and tell their friends. We don't have the luxury of patients flying home and not bothering to come back to avail of imaginary warranties. We do not have geographic success. To survive here you have to do work that lasts and that is well planned. As I said I am not defensive, I am telling you the way it is, I will get the work either way, now or in 5 years, whether you decide to pay for it twice or not is up to how much you distrust the irish professional to give you advice.

Chuck Stone

From the piece your drawing attention to:

No comprehensive figures are available as to the number of Irish people travelling abroad for treatment, or the qualitative experience of these patients. As public dental consultants we frequently encounter patients seeking to rectify problems with treatment provided elsewhere, but this is hardly a representative sample. While our experience has allowed us to make some observations about patients returning from other countries, we are unable to generalise these observations without more complete data.

Journal of the Irish Dental Association: Volume 53 Number 4 Winter 2007:
p180

The part I have bolded returns us to my original post i.e. is confirmation bias at work when it comes to Irish dentists commenting on the quality of work done abroad versus that done locally.

I've searched google.co.uk for studies and have found little in the way of evidence to suggest that dental tourism has any worse outcome than local treatment.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Chuck Stone wrote: »

From the piece your drawing attention to:



The part I have bolded returns us to my original post i.e. is confirmation bias at work when it comes to Irish dentists commenting on the quality of work done abroad versus that done locally.

I've searched google.co.uk for studies and have found little in the way of evidence to suggest that dental tourism has any worse outcome than local treatment.

You should give it a try so.

helimachoptor

OK this thread is going to end up in posting ping pong.

To the OP, balance costs and quality of treatment.
You will get a lot of recommendations from fellow boardsies by PM, listen to them but also be aware that this is the internet and you really do need to do your own research.

If you are considering work abroad, yes there are horror stories but equally there are probably some happy endings.

Best of luck

Chuck Stone

Estrella Mammoth Colonel wrote: »

You should give it a try so.

Give what a try?

Nothing like a bit of google to research a topic that takes years and years of study to understand.

You're now avoiding the issue making an appeal to your authority rather than providing statistical evidence .

Don't you think that an individual, no matter how experienced, should avoid making sweeping statements about the qualitative experiences of a huge sample of service users?

I'd imagine someone such as yourself and this poster

Oral Surgeon wrote: »

I'm going to call a spade a spade here; dental tourism dental makeovers/ rehabilitations are pure crap.

OS

Oral Surgeon wrote: »

It sure is a sweeping statement but I've seen enough botched jobs to make it justified.

who would be at risk of confirmation bias would factor this into your thinking on the subject and subsequent replies on threads such as this.

Its like I looked into a crystal ball and knew your reply before you posted it.

Wow.

This is not my first discussion on this topic.

I have no doubt that's true.

To to sum up there is nothing in the way of evidence to suggest that getting dental treatment abroad has any better outcomes than getting treatment locally.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

I have seen no evidence that it is safe either....the lack of evidence is enough to make me pause for thought. However you know what confirmation bias is, we all get that. I suppose in the absence of evidence either way you can assume that cheap, fast dental work in another country in another language without proper access to aftercare, recommended by companies on commission and with recorded evidence of numerous botch jobs and poor after sales by dentist, patients own admission, on boards and other internet sources, and against the advise of many national dental bodies, is equally as good as any other type of dental work.

You should defiantly give it a try.

BTW when you say there is no evidence, you really mean there is no high level evidence. For instance my opinion and experience is evidence, and documented also. Its expert opinion, low level evidence but evidence non the less. This is not a topic amenable to RCT the highest form of evidence, so I doubt you would be satisfied. Of course dentist will see the jobs gone bad, however does a doctor sit there seeing multiple food poisoning from one particular restaurant and just says, "ah well no need to call the inspectors I am sure there are plenty of people out there who ate the food and are fine".

Chuck Stone

Estrella Mammoth Colonel wrote: »

I have seen no evidence that it is safe either....the lack of evidence is enough to make me pause for thought.

As I have alluded to before there are probably multitudes of people who've had good experiences who we never hear of. The horror stories will get the attention.

However you know what confirmation bias is, we all get that

Agreed.

I suppose in the absence of evidence either way you can assume that cheap, fast dental work in another country in another language without proper access to aftercare, recommended by companies on commission and with recorded evidence of numerous botch jobs and poor after sales by dentist, patients own admission, on boards and other internet sources, and against the advise of many national dental bodies, is equally as good as any other type of dental work.

This itself assumes that people make decisions based on cost alone. I daresay there are many people who do extensive research, do multiple visits for treatment and do not automatically choose the cheapest alternative.

You should defiantly give it a try.

What? Foreign dentistry? My teeth are okay for the moment thanks. I don't even know if I'd travel for dental work. Haven't weighed up the pros and cons tbh.

BTW when you say there is no evidence, you really mean there is no high level evidence. For instance my opinion and experience is evidence, and documented also. Its expert opinion, low level evidence but evidence non the less.

It's anecdotal evidence subject to confirmation bias.

This is not a topic amenable to RCT the highest form of evidence, so I doubt you would be satisfied.

If we assume that's true then I think it's important that sweeping statements such as 'foreign dental work is crap' are challenged, ergo, me in this thread.

does a doctor sit there seeing multiple food poisoning from one particular restaurant and just says, "ah well no need to call the inspectors I am sure there are plenty of people out there who ate the food and are fine".

That analogy might work if it were a particular restaurant or in this case dental practice or perhaps even dental practices of a particular foreign nation (at a push) were in question. Again all I've seen ITT are sweeping statements as to the poor quality of dental treatment carried out abroad.

Abroad is a big place.

lob020

Sweeping Statements
I'm going to call a spade a spade here; dental tourism dental makeovers/ rehabilitations are pure crap.

Oral Surgeon


Sarcastic and humourless comments and horrific pictures produced by Fitzg

These guys have been dominating this forum for a long time ,its about time their biased views have been challenged.

There are as many bad dentists here as anywhere else -unbelievable and conceited comments from professionals on high,throwing a few crumbs to the masses wont cut it any more

If you guys continue to put down anyone who mentions going abroad for dental work regardless of reputation of clinic ,how can anyone take what you say as true

As I said in earlier post ,its understandable that you are trying to protect your income/lifestyle -I`m sure your clinics must be suffering and I know you`ve had to reduce your charges,however coming on here and brandishing all "dental tourism" is just wrong

btkm8unsl0w5r4

YAWN....do your research. Don't be gullible, use your head, if its too good to be true it is. Decide for yourself, its your health nobody will benefit or suffer as much as you.

If you cannot afford to do it right, wait until you can. A mistake will cost you again, and again and again.

lob020 wrote: »

Sarcastic and humourless comments and horrific pictures produced by Fitzg

Those pictures are from the before and after gallery on the website of the clinic you were enquiring about.....epic fail.

lob020

Hey Fitzg , I was referring to previous pictures you produced
Your attitude of contempt shows all the time
Why cant you accept commonsense,there is good and bad in all professions

Bearcat

I could see the way this thread was heading.....

I'd love to see a closed thread and we all move on.

narddog

Been reading the thread with interest.

Seems to me the whole conversation can be narrowed down to two things. Time and cost. If you get a lot of work done in a short space of time, regardless of where it is done, the likelihood of problems is hugely increased. Getting numerous bridges, implants or crown work done in a day, whether it's done in Dublin, Vienna or Warsaw, is likely to lead to problems. I had one implant done recently. From the start to finish, it took 4 months. Then 2 months later, the crown on the implanted tooth cracked. Cue another trip to the dentist to get that redone. Point is, when you are dealing with teeth, you need to go slow. BTW, my treatment was done in the US.

Secondly cost. It will cost more to get any dental procedure done in Ireland, compared to any other country I know of. I've had dental problems for a long time, and have had treatment in a number of countries. (Job takes me aboard a lot). Irish dental prices are high. I truly don't have an axe to grind with dentist's, but that's how I see it. I compared the cost of my implant done in the US, to what it would have cost back home. Would have been roughly double if done in Ireland.

Just my tuppence worth.

Oral Surgeon

Mmmm, whats my agenda….? If you look at the 400 posts I have on dental issues- you will see that my desire is to educate and advise people on the best oral healthcare.

When you post questions on the motors or computer or iphone forum and someone more knowledgeable gives advice, most just say thanks but just because you don’t like the answers you question my motives and agenda.

2000% mark up, on what??? The cost of the implants, coverscrews, healing abutments, impression copings, abutments, lab made crown, bone graft and membranes, sutures, staff, light, heat, rent, rates, insurance… add up. Do the maths, or maybe ask Chuck stone to do it seeing that he/she seems to be into stats, and you’ll see that this just does not add up or even come close to making sense….

You say that Irish dentist are overpriced etc etc. To do an implant in my clinic takes about 8 hours of clinical time spread over 4-6 months. These clinics do it all in 2 hours or so with cheaper implants and materials, so their mark up or hourly rate, even on a cheaper list price is probably better than mine…..


Post no 7 of mine say that I do not think that all foreign dentists are bad or that all irish dentists are good. I said that dental tourism for large treatment plans done quickly were bad.

Chuck stone, if all the evidence or lack of evidence is telling you to go and get a quick, cheap dental job then go and have it done and you’ll have all the proof you’ll ever need sitting in your gob.

Lob020, why is showing pics of bad jobs to inform people of the dangers of this type of treatment showing contempt. It is done to inform. Irish plastic surgeons are always showing pictures of tummy tucks and boobs jobs done by poorly qualified people when they go wrong. I’m sure that these badly qualified doctors also have patients who are happy with their double Ds but that does not change the fact that the job is done to a higher standard consistently by a specialist and done without time constraints.

Just because you ahave a set of teeth does not mean that you know anything about them, ignore good advice if you want but don’t say that you were not warned

OS