Trade thread

#15

Just to keep trade discussion separate from the free agency thread. Maybe we could post all trade rumours and news here.

Lakers giving up Gasol and Odom to get Chris Paul.

http://twitter.com/#!/wojyahoonba

A deal has been reached in principle to send Chris Paul to the Los Angeles Lakers, an executive in the three-team talks tells Yahoo! Sports..

Great move for the Lakers, even more so when you consider that Bynum is still there to dangle in front of the Magic front office. A Kobe-Paul-Howard trio would be incredible.

kmart6

Here's the full details:

In the blink of an eye, the entire landscape of the NBA has changed. As originally reported by Adrian Wojnarowski of Yahoo Sports, the Los Angeles Lakers, New Orleans Hornets, and Houston Rockets have agreed on the framework of a deal that will bring Chris Paul to L.A. The long-standing rumors linking the league’s best point guard and premier glamour franchise have finally been actualized, giving the Lakers the kind of transcendent star to usher in the post-Kobe Bryant era.

The specifics of the deal are as follows:

Los Angeles receives:

Chris Paul*

In exchange for:

Pau Gasol
Lamar Odom

Houston receives:

Pau Gasol

In Exchange for:

Luis Scola
Kevin Martin
Goran Gragic
2012 first round draft pick (originally from New York)

New Orleans receives:

Lamar Odom
Luis Scola
Kevin Martin
Goran Dragic
a 2012 first round draft pick (originally from New York, via Houston)

In exchange for:

Chris Paul

*According to salary cap wizard Larry Coon of ESPN.com, the Lakers may also be acquiring two traded player exceptions (TPE) that they can in turn use to acquire other players. Kevin Pelton — of Basketball Prospectus and ESPN.com — wisely connected the dots between the Lakers’ TPE and New York’s Ronny Turiaf, whose contract currently stands in the way of the Knicks’ arrangement with free agent Tyson Chandler.

The Rockets have paid a steep price in order to acquire Pau Gasol, but Houston GM Daryl Morey finally has the star player he has so long coveted. Additionally, the Rockets will have enough room under the cap to continue chasing after unrestricted free agent big man Nene, who could provide the Rox with a dynamic 1-2 punch on their back line. That said, Gasol is likely not the franchise centerpiece that many Rockets fans envisioned after years of Morey collecting tradeable assets.

New Orleans gave up one of the league’s true superstars, but in return have acquired a number of quality assets. Odom, Scola, and Martin are all very good players that can make the Hornets competitive in the short term, but can also be flipped with relative ease if the right deal comes along. The Hornets are trying to move on at this point, but by acquiring several very good assets at the expense of Chris Paul’s ticking clock, they buy time to pursue fair trades and do their proper diligence.

moneyman

Not done yet:

NBA owners have pushed commissioner David Stern to kill the deal sending Chris Paul to the Los Angeles Lakers, sources tell Y! Sports.

Per Adrian Wojnarowski on twitter. He's very reliable. Deal will probably go through but it seems that the owners are NOT happy that Stern is trading Paul.


EDIT: Another update:

The NBA is now pushing New Orleans GM Dell Demps to pull the plug on the trade and keep Chris Paul, league sources tell Y! Sports.

This could get ugly. I would laugh if this fell through.

kmart6

Be absolute war if it doesn't happen just cause other teams aren't happy!

moneyman

Widely reported now that the deal is off. That's per all the reputable sources, Wojnarowski, Stein, Amick etc..

Hilarity ensues!

Sam Amick:

Executive involved in the talks confirms that deal Lakers, Houston, New Orleans deal is off.

Marc Stein:

One source close to the three-team Chris Paul trade talks just told http://ESPN.com: "The deal is off."

Wojnarowski:

The NBA has killed the proposed deal to send Chris Paul to the Los Angeles Lakers, league sources tell Yahoo! Sports.

The NBA has caved to pressure from owners that the appearance of this deal, on heels of lockout, had to be stopped, sources tell Y! Sports.

Ken Berger:

Ownership source confirms reports that the league has pulled the plug on trade sending Chris Paul to the Lakers.

padraig_f

CP3: WoW

kmart6

Oh god this is going to get messy!!!!

moneyman

It's the right outcome. One of the main issues that caused the lockout was the joining up of the stars in big markets. It's ridiculous and the idea that players can demand to play where they want should not be tolerated. If that's how the NBA is going to operate, they may as well contract 25 of the teams, because none of them will have a chance at competing anyway.

padraig_f

Right now I'm happy that Chris Paul isn't a Laker, but it wasn't a bad deal for the Hornets: Scola, Odom, Martin, 3 starters. So the grounds for the owners blocking it are pretty damn dodgy.

kmart6

Players should be entitled to play where they think they can win! CP3 won't win anything unless he's with one of the bigger teams so are the owners going to block every move to a higher profile team?!

moneyman

padraig_f wrote: »

Right now I'm happy that Chris Paul isn't a Laker, but it wasn't a bad deal for the Hornets: Scola, Odom, Martin, 3 starters. So the grounds for the owners blocking it are pretty damn dodgy.

AFAIK, owners are free to object to any trade. All trades have to be approved by the commish, and in this case it obviously wasn't, due to the NBA owning the Hornets and the controversy surrounding star players joining their friends.

Players should be entitled to play where they think they can win! CP3 won't win anything unless he's with one of the bigger teams so are the owners going to block every move to a higher profile team?!

True, but it's sad that players don't have any pride and want to join up with multiple other stars ("coincidentally" in big markets) - where's the competitiveness? This mindset is ruining the NBA. The fans are getting sick of it and rightly so, it's very difficult to keep interested when you know there's never a chance your team can compete. Players are copping out, plain and simple. It's funny when you hear these guys being talked about as the most competitive in the league. I'd have to respectfully disagree.

All that said, this wasn't a bad deal for the Hornets, and they now run the risk of losing him for nothing in free agency next year.

kmart6

Well I think he's given a lot to the Hornets over the years...which wasn't given back to him...bloody hell the team doesn't have an owner so why would the best PG in the league stay somewhere where realistically he'd be wasting a year of his career!

moneyman

Sam Amick:

League spokesman Tim Frank to SI.com: "Not true that owners killed the (3-team) deal. It wasn't even discussed at the Board meeting..."

Continued...

Frank: "...League office declined to make the trade for basketball reasons." Statement issued to other media as well.

kmart6

Would love to be at the start of Lakers camp tomorrow with Gasol and Odom arriving in!

Sea Devils

I think the funny thing about this whole fiasco is that while everyone wants to look at it from the Laker perspective, they're the party here that gets screwed the least.

-Dell Demps (Hornets GM) doesn't have a ton of great options available in terms of trading CP3, because CP3 won't commit to a long term deal in most places. Considering the position he was in, Kevin Martin, Lamar Odom, Luis Scola, Goran Dragic, & a 1st Round pick is a pretty good return. What are they gonna get now?

-Darryl Morey (Rockets GM) has coveted Gasol for years. He finally got his guy...until Stern jumped in.


How do you think Chris Paul, Pau Gasol, Lamar Odom, Kevin Martin, Luis Scola, & Goran Dragic feel right about now? Reportedly most of them won't be reporting to training camp tomorrow. Can't say I blame them. And it leaves each team in a really awkward position regarding all of them.

Sea Devils

Apologies for the double post here but I just came across this interesting bit on RealGM about what's going to happen.

Here's an excerpt...

"

Real GM wrote:

Not sure if it's on ESPN yet but I got some info that should go public within a few hours. Chris Paul, his agent and the teams involved will threaten to file an appeal if the trade isn't re-approved by the league. Okay basically, they are going to say that the owners and Stern have no say in this. I'll try to interpret it from a more understandable point of view without all the legal terms.

1) All 29 owners can not have a say in who and where any player goes on New Orleans because it's a conflict of interest.
2) For this reason, a mediator should be chosen. That person is Dell Demps.
3) He was chosen to avoid that conflict.
4) He has the fiduciary duty to make decisions that will maximize the return to the principle (NBA & owners).
5) Due to the conflict of interest, the NBA or the owners cannot have a say or question the mediator's authority as it negates the purpose of the original agreement.
6) It is therefore a beach of contract by Stern (NBA) due to voir dire. Voir dire is a legal term which means "participants are demonstrating bias reasoning in nullifying the original agreement".

It's complicated but basically, Stern has no right to veto anything. He owns the Hornets and because he is the commissioner of the NBA; it's a conflict of interest for him (and the the owners) to have a say in anything general managers do because they are agents of the owners and are responsible for improving their respective teams

.

moneyman

Sea Devils wrote: »

I think the funny thing about this whole fiasco is that while everyone wants to look at it from the Laker perspective, they're the party here that gets screwed the least.

-Dell Demps (Hornets GM) doesn't have a ton of great options available in terms of trading CP3, because CP3 won't commit to a long term deal in most places. Considering the position he was in, Kevin Martin, Lamar Odom, Luis Scola, Goran Dragic, & a 1st Round pick is a pretty good return. What are they gonna get now?

-Darryl Morey (Rockets GM) has coveted Gasol for years. He finally got his guy...until Stern jumped in.


How do you think Chris Paul, Pau Gasol, Lamar Odom, Kevin Martin, Luis Scola, & Goran Dragic feel right about now? Reportedly most of them won't be reporting to training camp tomorrow. Can't say I blame them. And it leaves each team in a really awkward position regarding all of them.

This is spot on. As much as I think Stern is morally justified in blocking the trade, he doesn't really have any proper justification. It's a solid deal for the Hornets, certainly not like the joke of a deal the Grizz got for Pau.

This sets a strange precedent. I like the fact that he's trying to show the stars that they can't continue to be utter b**ches, but this isn't the perfect way to go about it.

Still, anything that messes up the Lakers chemistry makes me happy.

Sea Devils

Bill Simmons is spot on per usual:

Bill Simmons wrote:

Just know that I'm a die-hard Celtics fan and die-hard Lakers hater … and even I am appalled. I hope Chris Paul sues. I hope the Rockets sue. I hope the Lakers sue. I hope Dell Demps resigns and makes a sex tape with a stripper wearing a David Stern Halloween mask. Whatever happens, the season has been irrevocably tainted — we just watched FIVE teams have their seasons screwed up by this debacle. Houston's three-year plan just went up in smoke; now the Rockets have to make up with their two best players. (Good luck with that.) The Lakers need to determine if their relationship with the notoriously sensitive Gasol and the even more notoriously sensitive Odom is salvageable; and if it's not, what then? The Hornets are just plain screwed. It's a basketball catastrophe for them. As for the Celtics, Pinocchio Ainge's ill-fated pursuit of Paul ruined the team's relationship with Rajon Rondo, only its best young player. Even the Knicks got screwed — supposedly they closed the deal with Tyson Chandler yesterday, never expecting Paul to become available this summer (and now they can't chase him). The total tally: Five teams were screwed by one cowardly decision.

moneyman

Sea Devils wrote: »

Bill Simmons is spot on per usual:

All of that is irrelevant to whether the League's decision was justified. If it was, then it's not their fault that teams are going to be hurt by it.

I'm not convinced either way by it. The Hornets are owned by all other 29 owners. If a majority protested to the deal, and I'm not saying they did, then Stern was right to pull the plug. Simple as that.

Easiest and best thing to do is to hold a vote. If most owners are against it, there's no issue with this outcome. If most owners are indifferent, then the deal goes down.


EDIT: Per Scott Howard Cooper's twitter:

Stern statement: ".... we decided, free from the influence of other NBA owners, that the team was better served with Chris in a Hornets....”

So it seems that Stern made the decision that the offer wasn't good enough, essentially. It will be interesting to see if there's lawsuits, but in a way, I'm glad this happened. Paul can suck it. He won't be able to sign for the Lakers when he's a FA. It's shame NO will likely lose him for nothing, but it sends out the message that players cannot dictate who they go to. If they're desperate to go to a particular team, they can play out their contract and take a massive paycut, which we all know won't happen. I'm sick and tired of players thinking they can get what they want. The NBA will go on with or without them - their self-importance is extremely annoying.

padraig_f

I think it's a crock of **** that the trade was vetoed, there was nothing wrong with it, every party negotiated in their own best interests, and the Hornets came out as well as they possibly could out of it. They only thing the other owners didn't like was that Chris Paul was heading to the Lakers. If there was an equivalent trade with him going to the Nuggets or somewhere, I don't think there would've been any objection.

I'm not a Lakers fan, I generally root against them, but you can't just block a trade because a good player is going to the Lakers. Where do you draw the line then? They've spent 5 months locked out trying to come up with a system to restrict top players going to big markets, they've got egg on their faces because it's failed to do that at the first hurdle, and they've thrown their toys out of the pram. The system is agreed now (just voted on yesterday), you have to let it play out without interference, otherwise the system is a joke, you open it up to all sorts of accusations of conflicts of interest, favouritism etc.

moneyman

padraig_f wrote: »

I think it's a crock of **** that the trade was vetoed, there was nothing wrong with it, every party negotiated in their own best interests, and the Hornets came out as well as they possibly could out of it. They only thing the other owners didn't like was that Chris Paul was heading to the Lakers. If there was an equivalent trade with him going to the Nuggets or somewhere, I don't think there would've been any objection.

I'm not a Lakers fan, I generally root against them, but you can't just block a trade because a good player is going to the Lakers. Where do you draw the line then? They've spent 5 months locked out trying to come up with a system to restrict top players going to big markets, they've got egg on their faces because it's failed to do that at the first hurdle, and they've thrown their toys out of the pram. The system is agreed now (just voted on yesterday), you have to let it play out without interference, otherwise the system is a joke, you open it up to all sorts of accusations of conflicts of interest, favouritism etc.

People need to remember that this can only happen with the Hornets. The NBA can't block any trade sending a good player to the Lakers. As owners of the Hornets, they are perfectly entitled to veto any trade. Of course their ruling is completely arbitrary and this will cause problems.

That wasn't the only problem owners had with it. The Hornets were losing their superstar and taking on a huge amount of salary in the process. Yes they got some good players, but they would have been destined for mediocrity for the considerable future with that trade. No cap space, no high draft picks to improve, no flexibility. It was an OK trade talentwise, but still doesn't put the Hornets in a good position.


This is obviously going to split people. Despite the fact that I think the trade makes the Lakers weaker, I'm still OK with the way it's played out. Paul can let his contract expire and make the choice of either A) Playing with the Lakers for 5 million a year or Following the money, which we know he will do.

It's unfortunate that the Hornets likely won't get anything in return, but it's probably more beneficial to let him walk, use the cap space and ensuing high picks to rebuild with youngsters.

padraig_f

moneyman wrote: »

People need to remember that this can only happen with the Hornets.

It still stinks. There was an assumption that they were taking over the Hornets temporarily and run the franchise in the best interests of the Hornets until a new owner came along. Now they're effectively having teams colluding by making decisions for the Hornets to benefit other teams. I don't think it has anything to do with getting a better deal for the Hornets. Look at Dan Gilbert's letter, it has everything to do with the Lakers and nothing to do with the Hornets:
Here’s the Angry Email Cleveland Owner Dan Gilbert Sent to David Stern About the Chris Paul Trade

But the Lakers are just doing what every other team is entitled to do under the new system.

Sea Devils

padraig_f wrote: »

I think it's a crock of **** that the trade was vetoed, there was nothing wrong with it, every party negotiated in their own best interests, and the Hornets came out as well as they possibly could out of it. They only thing the other owners didn't like was that Chris Paul was heading to the Lakers. If there was an equivalent trade with him going to the Nuggets or somewhere, I don't think there would've been any objection.

I'm not a Lakers fan, I generally root against them, but you can't just block a trade because a good player is going to the Lakers. Where do you draw the line then? They've spent 5 months locked out trying to come up with a system to restrict top players going to big markets, they've got egg on their faces because it's failed to do that at the first hurdle, and they've thrown their toys out of the pram. The system is agreed now (just voted on yesterday), you have to let it play out without interference, otherwise the system is a joke, you open it up to all sorts of accusations of conflicts of interest, favouritism etc.

The Hornets being owned by the other 29 teams means that they can't have a say in personnel decisions because it's a conflict of interest. That's why they have a mediator who handles that, which is Dell Demps.

But that aside....CHRIS PAUL IS LEAVING THE HORNETS EITHER THROUGH TRADE OR FREE AGENCY. It's a big, flashing neon sign right now. So if the owners don't want to make the Hornets less marketable because their biggest star is leaving, it's too late. They may as well get something for him. And with his unwillingness to sign an extension in all but a few places, the market is very limited.

The question is where can the Hornets trade CP3? Is this for David Stern to be deciding? This is terrible precedent, and that's why people all over the league are upset. It's not just the players, not at all. Here are some comments from an unnamed NBA Exec, per Woj

moneyman wrote: »

Easiest and best thing to do is to hold a vote. If most owners are against it, there's no issue with this outcome. If most owners are indifferent, then the deal goes down

There are a lot of players and executives that are screaming murder about this though. Gilbert's letter shows that the owners couldn't give a damn about how this impacts the Hornets. The quote from Woj is from an unnamed NBA executive

"

As one rival executive with strong ties to the league office said, "Stern cared about two things: Selling that franchise for the best possible price; and showing the players that they weren't going to dictate where teams could trade them. But now, there's no way that the league can allow Chris Paul to be traded at all, otherwise Stern is basically deciding where one of the top players in the league is going versus having any fair process."

Officials from New Orleans, Houston and Los Angeles were stunned Thursday night. The killed trade had ripple affects everywhere in free agency and potential trades, and literally pushed the market into paralysis on the even of training camps opening up.

"We were all told by the league he was a trade-able player, and now they're saying that Dell doesn't have the authority to make the trade?" said an NBA executive who had periodic talks with New Orleans throughout the process. "Now, they're saying that Dell is an idiot, that he can't do it his job. [Expletive] this whole thing. David's drunk on power, and he doesn't give a [expletive] about the players, and he doesn't give a [expletive] about the hundreds of hours the teams put into make that deal. "How do the Lakers explain this to Odom? How does Houston deal with the guys it just tried to trade? Scola and Martin are going to be pissed at them, and who knows how long that takes to get over? Explain to me how the league kills this Pau Gasol deal, but allows Kwame Brown for Pau Gasol? "To me, this makes the league feel like it's rigged, that Stern just does whatever Stern wants to do. He's messed up the competitive balance of this league a lot worse by killing the deal, because you've completely destroyed the planning that New Orleans, Houston did and left them in shambles over this. I've never been so discouraged about this league, never so down. "I mean, come on: Chris Paul is leaving New Orleans in 66 games. He's gone. And what's Dell Demps, and that franchise, going to have to show for it?"

Lirange

moneyman wrote: »

Easiest and best thing to do is to hold a vote. If most owners are against it, there's no issue with this outcome. If most owners are indifferent, then the deal goes down.

Wtf? Why the hell do that? Do you really think the owners would vote for what's in the best interest of the Hornets as opposed to their own teams? Why do you think the league office is so determined to deny that opposition from league owners is what quashed the deal?

moneyman

Lirange wrote: »

Wtf? Why the hell do that? Do you really think the owners would vote for what's in the best interest of the Hornets as opposed to their own teams? Why do you think the league office is so determined to deny that opposition from league owners is what quashed the deal?

New Orleans is owned by the 29 owners. Like it or not, they have input. And actually, if a majority of owners objected to the deal, Stern would most certainly admit it, as it would remove the blame from him. The reason he's denying it is because it's the truth. If it went to a vote, the deal would likely pass.


I am not defending Stern here. I'm trying to create balance and give the facts. Stern does have the power to veto the trade, although his reasons are obviously arbitrary and shady. There's no doubt about that. Personally, I think he's set a dangerous precedent but as far as the actual outcome, I've no problem. **** Chris Paul, and same to any other egotistical star who thinks they have a right to demand to play for a certain team while under contract.

Lirange

moneyman wrote: »

New Orleans is owned by the 29 owners. Like it or not, they have input. And actually, if a majority of owners objected to the deal, Stern would most certainly admit it, as it would remove the blame from him. The reason he's denying it is because it's the truth. If it went to a vote, the deal would likely pass.

I'm not sure you quite understand how it works. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm getting the impression you believe the owners can dictate the operations of an NBA franchise because they are stakeholders in the league that took over temporary ownership of it? If so you definitely misunderstand. They don't have direct operating rights of a member franchise like board shareholders of a corporate entity. It would violate many laws. They are still owners of competing franchises. I think there's a fair chance that you got this impression from a leaked email sent by a certain NBA owner. An email that anti trust lawyers will be salivating over were this to be appealed in the courts.

moneyman

Lirange wrote: »

I'm not sure you quite understand how it works. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm getting the impression you believe the owners can dictate the operations of an NBA franchise because they are stakeholders in the league that took over temporary ownership of it? If so you definitely misunderstand. They don't have direct operating rights of a member franchise like board shareholders of a corporate entity. It would violate many laws. They are still owners of competing franchises. I think there's a fair chance that you got this impression from a leaked email sent by a certain NBA owner. An email that anti trust lawyers will be salivating over were this to be appealed in the courts.

No, I understand. What I mean is that regardless of the legitimacy of whether their opinions should be taken into account, it still is. There's no doubt Stern was influenced by the opposition. Although I concede that if what you say is correct regarding the anti-trust issue, then Stern wouldn't admit this. I was under the impression the owners had an official say, although it wasn't Gilbert's email which led me to this.

I would say at this point that it's likely the deal gets sorted, perhaps with the Lakers taking back Okafor's contract to enable Stern to justify his decision. I hope it gets done, would be the correct outcome and weaken the Lakers.

kmart6

So now it's Odom's gone to Dallas and Lakers are trying to get Howard!

Sea Devils

Crazier offseason...this year, or last year?

I've never seen anything like last year with LeBron & Bosh going to Miami and all of the other big top free agents, but I think this offseason (which is two days old, lol) tops it. At least last year bore resemblance to what we think sports are supposed to look like.

Also apparently the NBPA could pursue litigation if the CP3 trade isn't done by Monday

Sea Devils

Bulls are close to signing Rip Hamilton, which is exactly the kinda guy they need. Especially if he buys into Thibodeau's defense.

GoldFour4

Clippers and Hornets have submitted a trade to the league for approval. Chris Paul goes to LA and the Hornets get Eric Gordon, Chris Kaman, Al Fariq Aminu and minnesotas number one pick next year.

Its hard to say whether its gonna be approved. Sources say that the league wanted Eric Beldsoe