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Was the Republican campaign justifiable?

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    #932
    Hannibal
    Registered Users Posts: 1,815 ✭✭✭Hannibal


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    If it was a war according to Republicans, then why is there a need for justice? Surely these things just happen in a war?
    On the whole it was a war but on both sides there were things that were done that should never have took place in any war. Whether people will serve jail time is one thing but definitely there's stones that need turning


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    #933
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    Dotsey wrote: »
    On the whole it was a war but on both sides there were things that were done that should never have took place in any war. Whether people will serve jail time is one thing but definitely there's stones that need turning
    Can't have it both ways. Either you accept it was a war or you don't.


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    #934
    Noreen1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭Noreen1


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    Can't have it both ways. Either you accept it was a war or you don't.

    Neither can you. If it was a conflict, or a civil war, is there a need for justice?


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    #935
    Noreen1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭Noreen1


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    If it was a war according to Republicans, then why is there a need for justice? Surely these things just happen in a war?

    Rubbish. The British Government spent years denying there was a war. Hence, according to them, there were acts of terrorism committed.

    If there was a war, then there were war crimes committed.

    Either way, independent investigation should be welcomed by anyone who has nothing to fear imo. Certainly the victims would like the truth to be known - and they are the people I am most concerned about, whatever their political persuasion.


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    #936
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    Noreen1 wrote: »
    Rubbish. The British Government spent years denying there was a war. Hence, according to them, there were acts of terrorism committed.

    If there was a war, then there were war crimes committed.

    Either way, independent investigation should be welcomed by anyone who has nothing to fear imo. Certainly the victims would like the truth to be known - and they are the people I am most concerned about, whatever their political persuasion.
    Why don't Republicans just move on? It is never going to happen. Just accept it. Sinn Fein don't really want it, neither do the British government.


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    #937
    Noreen1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭Noreen1


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    Why don't Republicans just move on? It is never going to happen. Just accept it. Sinn Fein don't really want it, neither do the British government.

    Are you suggesting that Republicans are the only people who would like to see justice done in Northern Ireland? Surely not?
    I've read quite a few posts from Unionists on this forum that would suggest they feel they have a grievance. Some of them were written by yourself.

    Northern Ireland has Democratic Rule.
    Therefore, what the British Government, or Sinn Fein want should not overrule what the Northern Ireland electorate want.

    Sinn Fein have been calling for a truth commission for years.
    If the British Government have nothing to hide, why are you so convinced that they don't want the truth to come out?
    Do you suspect that the British Government have more to fear than the PIRA?

    It is Human nature to yearn for justice.
    The people of Northern Ireland are no different. They will not "move on" until they get that justice.


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    #938
    FeckinUsername
    Registered Users Posts: 41 ✭FeckinUsername


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    Why don't Republicans just move on? It is never going to happen. Just accept it. Sinn Fein don't really want it, neither do the British government.

    Sinn Féin have been calling for a truth commission for years now. People deserve answers if nothing else. Also, on the subject of Republican's moving on, it is not Republicans following up the Boston College tapes a Chara. I don't think anyone would expect Republican's to sit back and accept the tag of criminals while Britain sweeps their own involvement under the carpet.

    One other point would be that it is not just Republicans seeking the truth. Due to the incompetence of the British security forces and the unreliability of the information they passed to Loyalist armed groups many of those murdered had no Republican connections whatsoever. Their families deserve to know the truth about what happened to them. The Dublin and Monaghan bombings are a prime example.


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    #939
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    Noreen1 wrote: »
    Are you suggesting that Republicans are the only people who would like to see justice done in Northern Ireland? Surely not?
    I've read quite a few posts from Unionists on this forum that would suggest they feel they have a grievance. Some of them were written by yourself.

    Northern Ireland has Democratic Rule.
    Therefore, what the British Government, or Sinn Fein want should not overrule what the Northern Ireland electorate want.

    Sinn Fein have been calling for a truth commission for years.
    If the British Government have nothing to hide, why are you so convinced that they don't want the truth to come out?
    Do you suspect that the British Government have more to fear than the PIRA?

    It is Human nature to yearn for justice.
    The people of Northern Ireland are no different. They will not "move on" until they get that justice.
    What justice? We had the PIRA running around Ulster blowing people up, Loyalists shooting Nationalists, the British Army did the same. We all know what went on. We don't need to waste more public money on inquires.
    Sinn Féin have been calling for a truth commission for years now. People deserve answers if nothing else. Also, on the subject of Republican's moving on, it is not Republicans following up the Boston College tapes a Chara. I don't think anyone would expect Republican's to sit back and accept the tag of criminals while Britain sweeps their own involvement under the carpet.

    One other point would be that it is not just Republicans seeking the truth. Due to the incompetence of the British security forces and the unreliability of the information they passed to Loyalist armed groups many of those murdered had no Republican connections whatsoever. Their families deserve to know the truth about what happened to them. The Dublin and Monaghan bombings are a prime example.
    What Sinn Fein say and what Sinn Fein think are two totally different things. Sinn Fein would not want an inquiry because all it would do is expose many members of Sinn Fein. Martin Mcguinness and Gerry Adams being two examples.

    It is up to Republicans to move on.


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    #940
    FeckinUsername
    Registered Users Posts: 41 ✭FeckinUsername


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    What justice? We had the PIRA running around Ulster blowing people up, Loyalists shooting Nationalists, the British Army did the same. We all know what went on. We don't need to waste more public money on inquires.


    What Sinn Fein say and what Sinn Fein think are two totally different things. Sinn Fein would not want an inquiry because all it would do is expose many members of Sinn Fein. Martin Mcguinness and Gerry Adams being two examples.

    It is up to Republicans to move on.

    It is not a simple case of Republicans moving on. As I said in my first post to you, it is not Republicans seeking the truth in many cases. It is people, often unconnected to Republicanism, who have been constantly lied to about the manner of their loved ones deaths. I believe that relatives of the victims of events such as the Dublin and Monaghan bombings deserve to know what happened to their loved ones. You speak about moving on. Some people would find it very difficult to move on when many disturbing questions remain unanswered. In many respects, the conflict in the north can never be fully resolved without a truth commission.


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    #941
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    FeckinUsername wrote: »
    It is not a simple case of Republicans moving on. As I said in my first post to you, it is not Republicans seeking the truth in many cases. It is people, often unconnected to Republicanism, who have been constantly lied to about the manner of their loved ones deaths. I believe that relatives of the victims of events such as the Dublin and Monaghan bombings deserve to know what happened to their loved ones. You speak about moving on. Some people would find it very difficult to move on when many disturbing questions remain unanswered. In many respects, the conflict in the north can never be fully resolved without a truth commission.
    They know what happened. They know that it was a dirty war and you had people on all sides doing dirty things to hit back. They need to accept that. As hard as it is for me coming from the PUL community, I accept that we had been under attack. 1998 sorted it. Sinn Fein should focus on trying to win back those people who have walked away.


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    #942
    Noreen1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭Noreen1


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    What justice? We had the PIRA running around Ulster blowing people up, Loyalists shooting Nationalists, the British Army did the same. We all know what went on. We don't need to waste more public money on inquires.

    Actually, we don't all know what went on.
    I remember being on holidays in England in the 80s. There was uproar in Northern Ireland at the shooting dead of an 18 year old lad at a British army checkpoint. There wasn't a whisper about it on BBC news in Britain. BBC Northern Ireland, and RTE gave it extensive coverage.

    Vast sections of the British population have no idea what went on in Northern Ireland - some atrocities were carried out by the defence forces - purportedly in defence of British people - Most of these decent British people would be appalled were they to discover the truth of what was done by some soldiers, in their name.

    What about the English man who told his Italian wife, on the loss of their soldier son, that all Irish people hated the English?

    Do you think it might help him to understand the events that led to the loss of his son? Do you think it might help him to realise that all the Irish do not have an irrational hatred for the English, though they may hate the atrocities that were perpetrated on this Nation, historically.

    As mentioned by FeckinUsername, what about the victims of the Dublin and Monaghan bombings - do they not deserve the truth?
    What about Unionists whose deaths were permitted to protect moles?

    I can, and have, "moved on" - but I'm not one of the victims.
    Their wishes are the important thing, and their wishes are what I support.


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    #943
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    Noreen1 wrote: »
    Actually, we don't all know what went on.
    I remember being on holidays in England in the 80s. There was uproar in Northern Ireland at the shooting dead of an 18 year old lad at a British army checkpoint. There wasn't a whisper about it on BBC news in Britain. BBC Northern Ireland, and RTE gave it extensive coverage
    You're claiming media blackout on a checkpoint shooting. I highly doubt this. There has been extensive coverage of this era in Northern Ireland since it broke out.
    Which incident are you referring to?


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    #944
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    you "highly doubt" it. Good for you.

    "There has been extensive coverage of this era in Northern Ireland since it broke out. "

    I believe she covered that with "BBC Northern Ireland, and RTE gave it extensive coverage." The point being it more than likely wasnt covered very much on british tv. which when you look at it, isnt surprising. who would want to hear about more people getting killed anyway?


    JustinDee wrote: »
    You're claiming media blackout on a checkpoint shooting. I highly doubt this. There has been extensive coverage of this era in Northern Ireland since it broke out.
    Which incident are you referring to?


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    #945
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    Can't have it both ways. Either you accept it was a war or you don't.

    so you agree it was a war then keith?


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    #946
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    Noreen1 wrote: »
    Actually, we don't all know what went on.
    I remember being on holidays in England in the 80s. There was uproar in Northern Ireland at the shooting dead of an 18 year old lad at a British army checkpoint. There wasn't a whisper about it on BBC news in Britain. BBC Northern Ireland, and RTE gave it extensive coverage.

    Vast sections of the British population have no idea what went on in Northern Ireland - some atrocities were carried out by the defence forces - purportedly in defence of British people - Most of these decent British people would be appalled were they to discover the truth of what was done by some soldiers, in their name.

    What about the English man who told his Italian wife, on the loss of their soldier son, that all Irish people hated the English?

    Do you think it might help him to understand the events that led to the loss of his son? Do you think it might help him to realise that all the Irish do not have an irrational hatred for the English, though they may hate the atrocities that were perpetrated on this Nation, historically.

    As mentioned by FeckinUsername, what about the victims of the Dublin and Monaghan bombings - do they not deserve the truth?
    What about Unionists whose deaths were permitted to protect moles?

    I can, and have, "moved on" - but I'm not one of the victims.
    Their wishes are the important thing, and their wishes are what I support.
    This could go around in circles. I would like for Martin Mcguinness and co to come out and admit to the Claudy bombing of which he planned which killed people. It ain't going to happen.

    I accept it was part of the war of Republican aggression. The Dublin people should also accept that Dublin was a target and it happened. The clock can't be turned back.

    We don't need more enquiries like Bloody Sunday.


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    #947
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    I accept it was part of the war of Republican aggression.

    ah - so it was a kind of one sided war, with the war bits only being acted upon by republicans. Makes perfect sense.


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    #948
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    maccored wrote: »
    ah - so it was a kind of one sided war, with the war bits only being acted upon by republicans. Makes perfect sense.
    No one said it was one sided. But everyone has a view on it. The PIRA went around shooting RUC officers and so on. So it makes perfect sense to call it aggression and it was a war for the PIRA. So Republican aggression is what I call it.


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    #949
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    good to see you recognise it was a war anyway.

    KeithAFC wrote: »
    No one said it was one sided. But everyone has a view on it. The PIRA went around shooting RUC officers and so on. So it makes perfect sense to call it aggression and it was a war for the PIRA. So Republican aggression is what I call it.


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    #950
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    maccored wrote: »
    you "highly doubt" it. Good for you.

    "There has been extensive coverage of this era in Northern Ireland since it broke out. "

    I believe she covered that with "BBC Northern Ireland, and RTE gave it extensive coverage." The point being it more than likely wasnt covered very much on british tv. which when you look at it, isnt surprising. who would want to hear about more people getting killed anyway?
    I meant "on Northern Ireland" actually. It was a typo.
    Curious as to which incident she is referring to.


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    #951
    Noreen1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭Noreen1


    The shooting of a young lad at Aughnacloy. I'm afraid I don't remember his name.
    It would have been around '86/'87. if I remember correctly.

    Feel free to look it up. It happened.


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    #952
    Sunnyisland
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,562 ✭✭✭✭Sunnyisland


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aidan_McAnespie was the lads name.


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    #953
    john reilly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 409 ✭✭john reilly


    The question should be "is" and not was. Surely the campaign is still ongoing and wasnt it one of irelands greatest patriots who said "ireland unfree will never be at peace"


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    #954
    lugha
    Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    john reilly wrote: »
    The question should be "is" and not was. Surely the campaign is still ongoing

    That’s a fair point. It is difficult to see how logically, anyone can justify the activities of PIRA and at the same time criticise the dissident republicans who continue with their “struggle”. Not that that stops some …..
    john reilly wrote: »
    and wasnt it one of irelands greatest patriots who said "ireland unfree will never be at peace"

    Alas he rather miscalled that one. Ireland IS at peace, or at least as close to total peace as it is ever likely to be.


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    #955
    Hannibal
    Registered Users Posts: 1,815 ✭✭✭Hannibal


    lugha wrote: »
    That’s a fair point. It is difficult to see how logically, anyone can justify the activities of PIRA and at the same time criticise the dissident republicans who continue with their “struggle”. Not that that stops some …..



    Alas he rather miscalled that one. Ireland IS at peace, or at least as close to total peace as it is ever likely to be.
    There is a massive massive difference between the IRA that operated in the campaign from 1969 until 1997 and the dissident groups that operate today, to say there is a million miles between them would be an understatement


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    #956
    lugha
    Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    Dotsey wrote: »
    There is a massive massive difference between the IRA that operated in the campaign from 1969 until 1997 and the dissident groups that operate today, to say there is a million miles between them would be an understatement
    With respect to the question posed by the OP I don’t think there is. If it was justifiable for PIRA to use force to end the British presence in Ireland, though the vast majority of Irish people favoured only peaceful means to achieve this end, then why it is not equally justifiable now for the dissidents to do so?


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    #957
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    because now theres a political path open that did not exist before


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    #958
    lugha
    Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    maccored wrote: »
    because now theres a political path open that did not exist before
    If by political path you mean to a united Ireland the vast majority of those who aspired to this believed that there was a political path in the past also.

    PIRA and their friends disagreed just as the dissidents now disagree; the latter with some justification; a united Ireland if it ever happens (and it may not) it probably still several decades away.


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    #959
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    no - I mean a political path to ensure nationalists and republicans have a voice and arent treated like ****. an awful lot has changed in 40 years - maybe you missed that, i dunno.


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    #960
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    lugha wrote: »
    Ireland if it ever happens (and it may not) it probably still several decades away.

    Are you joking? You think you can restructure a country's complete political and economic system in just a few decades? It would take longer than that.


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    #961
    tim_holsters
    Registered Users Posts: 1,466 ✭✭✭tim_holsters


    No. Anyone who says yes should get out and about and meet some of the families of people who died because of republican violence and tell them why their family members death was justifiable. Will they do that? Will they Fuk.


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