"Leap" into the unknown: The feedback thread

Victor

Dravokivich wrote: »

I think part of the issue there could be how a Leap Validator at the stop determines the route being used to calculate the fare. As it needs a start point and an end point and to know what the difference between them is in accordance with the current stage fare system. And stops regularly feature multiple routes.

This isn't a problem with Trains/Luas. because it only goes one way or the other. But a Bus Route can loop around one area, while another just cuts through. Such as where the 37 goes into Blackhorse Ave, while the 39 goes straight to Stoneybatter from the N3.

Edit:
There'd also be the need for rolling RTPI out to all stops then as well. Or have a very low number of stops without it. There's none around me for example.

The suggestion (I made if originally) is that RTPI-enabled stops would have something similar to a validator, but that would only allow top-up collection. With about 450 RTI locations, that would nearly double the number of places top-ups could be collected.

bk

I have a degree in computer science and work as a software engineer with a good understanding of all this, so let me clear up some misunderstandings here.

- Mobile Phone, when you top-up a mobile phone, the credit isn't actually added to your phone, instead it is added to your account information which is stored in a big database at the mobile company. When you try to make a call, the server side first checks you have adequate credit to make the call/text before connecting you and then deducts the cost of the call/text from your account on the database.

- Standard Debit/Credit cards, the money isn't stored on your cards, just a unique id. The money is again stored in your account information in a big database at the bank. When you make a payment, the payment terminal first connects over the internet to the bank to check if you have sufficient funds to make the payment and if the bank says yes, then the payment is authorized and the back deducts the payment from your account information on the database.

- New Contactless Debit cards. Because the internet connection to the bank is too slow for quick contactless payments, these cards don't actually connect to the bank to first check if you have sufficient funds. Instead the payment is immediately authorized and only later when you have left the shop does the debit card machine inform the bank of the transaction and it is deducted from your account information. However in order to reduce possible fraud from this, the maximum amount you can spend in this way is limited to €15. If you spend €20 then you have to enter your PIN and the old slow method is invoked. Likewise every 4th sub €15 transaction also requires a PIN and the old slow method to make sure someone hasn't stolen the card.

Basically the banks are taking on some increased risk of fraud for the benefit of people using their cards more for small transactions.

- Now Leap (and all other similar travel cards, e.g. Oyster, Octupus, etc.) work in a completely different way to the above. Your credit/money is actually physically stored on the card itself. It isn't stored in some big database like the mobile phone and debit card examples above.

The reason the money is physically stored on the card is speed. If you were boarding a bus and every single transaction had to be authorized over the internet like a credit card, even at 1 or 2 seconds it would take far too long to do and would massively slow down people boarding.

So instead the money is stored directly on the card, so that the ticket machine can take the payment in less then 500ms. Which means quicker boarding times.

But this has an obvious downside in that it confuses people about how online top-ups work, as they expect it to work in the same way as mobile top-ups.

The thing is the cards themselves don't have any internet connection, so how is the credit you apply online meant to magically get onto the card? It can't. Credit needs to be written to the cards my card reader/writers.

One way they could do it is if they gave out reader/writers to everyone that attached to your PC, to update the cards, but they aren't going to do that due to the cost of the devices and possible security risk of people tampering with the cards.

However having said all that, I do believe that the current system could be made much more transparent and simpler for people.

1) The first and most important point is to allow the ticket machines on buses to add the credit to the card. This is the biggest problem with online top-ups as buses are the primary means of public transport in Dublin. Unfortunately the current ticket machines on Dublin Bus are too old and underpowered to handle this functionality. But it is certainly possible with newer, more powerful ticket machines as you see in Atlanta where your online top-ups are applied on the buses there. Fx this and you fix most of this problem with Leap.

2) Send it updates of online top-ups to all validators hourly, so that there is a better chance that when you top-up online, it will be available when you go to use it.

3) At the moment you have to decide to get the top-up either at Irish Rail Validators, Green Line Luas validators, Red Line Luas Validators or Payzone validators. Get rid of this distinction/complication and automatically make all online top-ups available at all validators, including on the bus.

Do these three steps and most people won't even notice that it doesn't work like mobile top-ups.

bk

Victor wrote: »

The suggestion (I made if originally) is that RTPI-enabled stops would have something similar to a validator, but that would only allow top-up collection. With about 450 RTI locations, that would nearly double the number of places top-ups could be collected.

I think it was a very good suggestion to do this when the RTPI poles were first being rolled out, I don't think it would be worth retrofitting it now.

I'd imagine it would cost as much if not more to retrofit this to the RTPI poles then it would cost to replace the Dublin Bus ticket machines with new, more powerful machines that could handle top-ups and other advanced ticketing features.

The underpowered wayfarer machines have definitely become the bottleneck for Leap card IMO and need to be replaced.

blubloblu

Any word as to when integrated ticketing is coming? As opposed to e-purse/weekly capping.

Dravokivich

blubloblu wrote: »

Any word as to when integrated ticketing is coming? As opposed to e-purse/weekly capping.

At the moment. It looks like taxsaver is being transferred over to Leap Card. But no clear word yet as to when it'll be launched.

Carawaystick

blubloblu wrote: »

Any word as to when integrated ticketing is coming? As opposed to e-purse/weekly capping.

There's not going to be integrated ticketing; when the leap card started they decided to have the maximum bus price > the Transfer90 price, for a single journey.....

It's like building roads, it's better to never finish so you won't be out of a job.

Also the NTA, are sited in the city centre, so no need for 2 journeys to or from work for the staff there, like the staff in Leinster House or 44 Kildare Street. Or if your chairman of CIE, we buy you a merc....

LXFlyer

Carawaystick wrote: »

There's not going to be integrated ticketing; when the leap card started they decided to have the maximum bus price > the Transfer90 price, for a single journey.....

It's like building roads, it's better to never finish so you won't be out of a job.

Also the NTA, are sited in the city centre, so no need for 2 journeys to or from work for the staff there, like the staff in Leinster House or 44 Kildare Street. Or if your chairman of CIE, we buy you a merc....

This is not true. The project is phased.

As part of a later phase there will be multi-journey/multi-operator trip rebates functionality added.

Carawaystick

lxflyer wrote: »

This is not true. The project is phased.

As part of a later phase there will be multi-journey/multi-operator trip rebates functionality added.

Why would you start an integrated ticketing system with a higher single journey fare for busses than the bus co offer for unlimited hour and a half journey starts...

LXFlyer

Carawaystick wrote: »

Why would you start an integrated ticketing system with a higher single journey fare for busses than the bus co offer for unlimited hour and a half journey starts...

The reality is that they are building functionality from scratch.

Each phase of the project adds additional functionality.

They are dealing with anomalies such as that as the project develops.

There are so many anomalies in the fares set up to be addressed - it would be impossible to address them all at once.

The initial launch was politically driven - I imagine had they more time that anomaly would not have arisen.

AlekSmart

lxflyer wrote: »

The reality is that they are building functionality from scratch.

Each phase of the project adds additional functionality.

They are dealing with anomalies such as that as the project develops.

There are so many anomalies in the fares set up to be addressed - it would be impossible to address them all at once.

The initial launch was politically driven - I imagine had they more time that anomaly would not have arisen.

The anomalies were all there on the inception of the ITS Project,yet it was decided then (12 years ago) to ignore these and plough on ahead with a vague assertion that they would be addressed at a "future stage".

Had the ITS implimentation group insisted on getting the basics right from the outset,the we would not now be experiencing the nonsense we are.

BK mentions 500 ms in relation to a Leapcard transaction...I now regularly have to watch the Wayfarer screen remain in cash mode for between 8 and 12 seconds.

Worse still is that these delays are now migrating into the cash fare menu as well,with significant delays now regularly leading to double fare issues.

Still not so much as a single line memo from either BAC or the ITS people to Staff ....mushroom territory.

Polar101

AlekSmart wrote: »

BK mentions 500 ms in relation to a Leapcard transaction...I now regularly have to watch the Wayfarer screen remain in cash mode for between 8 and 12 seconds.

This week I've been using my Leap card a lot more - I've been boarding the bus after cash payers so I've been experiencing this delay quite a few times now. It's definitely a long wait. And I always get the "Sorry, I have a Leap card.." feeling.

bk

Polar101 wrote: »

And I always get the "Sorry, I have a Leap card.." feeling.

Me too, big time.

I'd imagine it might actually be turning some people off using it.

AlekSmart

bk wrote: »

Me too, big time.

I'd imagine it might actually be turning some people off using it.

No imagining about it bk.

The issue is simmering away and actively making current Leapcard holders question the integrity of the entire Leapcard product...I know because I am talking to these people on a daily basis,but I am unable to answer their questions because NO information has been forthcoming from either the NTA or BAC on whatever is happening.

It is a very significant issue,which will not improve with the hands-over-the -eyes approach being taken by the very authorities whose task is to PROMOTE the ITS as the way forward for a new-generation of commuting customers.

They are losing a significant amount of the olden days product known as "GOODWILL",which once lost,is incredibly difficult to regain !

But then again,what would I know....;)

devnull

It's not down to the Leapcard though, it's down to the fact the ticket machines are using technology which is based on a computer chip that was around in the mid 1990s. (A 386!)

The ticket machines are old techonology now, II can see that people were using the same machines for the first time as far back as 2001.

Something newer such as the newer version of the same machine, with more memory and a faster processing chip would make a huge amount of difference.

I would hope that the NTA would actually help fund that for PSO services.

goingnowhere

They already are, for all private operators who sign up to leap, NTA provides all the on bus and back office equipment

Victor

At a higher frequency than previously, I've noticed self-solving bad reads on buses.

When I present the card to the driver's machine, I'm there counting 1 ... 2... 3... 4... 5 ... bad read ... and just before I take the card away it then changes to the balance / cap screen.

I got an apology from two drivers today about the slow Leap card response time. The first one assured me that the card isn't at fault and the second one told me that the NTA put their own software on the Wayfarer and it's slowing the whole thing down.

devnull

Karsini wrote: »

The second one told me that the NTA put their own software on the Wayfarer and it's slowing the whole thing down.

That is the case, that the software slows the machine down, but that is not down to the software per-se, more the limitations of the ticket machine which is pretty old technology these days, which is being pushed to it's limits and beyond by the demands which are being placed on it.

PDF Here:
http://www.parkeon.co.uk/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid=23

It has only 1mb of memory, which is it's first limitation, and it is based around a chip which was introduced by Intel in the mid 1980s (The 386), which has been discontinued for nearly seven years now. Whilst it can do simple read write and ticket printing duties on multi day, throw away tickets, the extra functionality that leap requires places it's slow, outdated processor under strain.

Add in the fact that the Leap Cards are encrypted to a high level, which is always going to be required on such a system where someone keeps a card for a long time and reuses it, to prevent fraud and card cloning that can and will happen if the security is not strong enough, and there's just too much for that hardware to do.

There is a much faster version of this machine that was introduced almost six years ago to overcome some of the problems as listed above with the existing machine. It has over 100 times more memory, much more modern technology and a much faster processor.

Info here:
http://www.parkeon.co.uk/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid=24

Really the NTA need to try and get their finger out and give some money up to try and replace these older machines or at least contribute something to them. The only other workaround is to dumb leap down, or to reduce the encryption on the cards, the former will reduce the features that LEAP can offer, and the second will make card cloning and fraud much easier. So neither are desirable.

A 386 with 1MB of RAM? Mad. Couldn't even run Windows 3.1 in Enhanced Mode on it. :pac:

cdebru

AlekSmart wrote: »

The anomalies were all there on the inception of the ITS Project,yet it was decided then (12 years ago) to ignore these and plough on ahead with a vague assertion that they would be addressed at a "future stage".

Had the ITS implimentation group insisted on getting the basics right from the outset,the we would not now be experiencing the nonsense we are.

BK mentions 500 ms in relation to a Leapcard transaction...I now regularly have to watch the Wayfarer screen remain in cash mode for between 8 and 12 seconds.

Worse still is that these delays are now migrating into the cash fare menu as well,with significant delays now regularly leading to double fare issues.

Still not so much as a single line memo from either BAC or the ITS people to Staff ....mushroom territory.

Actually I don't think they even know there is a problem, one of the constant problems with DB is that is little to no communication between frontline staff and the people who call the shots resulting in the those calling the shots having no idea when a problem arises.

Ask any driver in DB and they will describe the exact same problem you describe, it is as if the ticket machine is entering some kind of sleep mode, and when it is used again at the next stop is has to reawaken, taking up to 15 seconds, most of the time it then works fairly ok but not always.

However another office within DB raised this with the department in charge of ticketing equipment and updates and they were informed indeed there was a delay, with the latest update it is now 2 hundreds of a second slower than before, they are completely unaware there is another problem.

I can only assume that they are not testing in service conditions, they are testing in office set up conditions, and with no channels for frontline feedback they presume it is working as per their office type testing.

Stereomaniac

That is hard to believe I think, how could they not know? I would be more inclined to think that they just don't care, as long as people keep paying for and using the things. Sure public transport in this country is always behind the times. We got the Luas in this city far later than we should have as well.

cdebru

Stereomaniac wrote: »

That is hard to believe I think, how could they not know? I would be more inclined to think that they just don't care, as long as people keep paying for and using the things. Sure public transport in this country is always behind the times. We got the Luas in this city far later than we should have as well.

Because the people working at this don't use the system, and have zero contact with those that work in it.

bk

devnull wrote: »

It has only 1mb of memory, which is it's first limitation, and it is based around a chip which was introduced by Intel in the mid 1980s (The 386),

To put this in context, I've just bought a prepay android smartphone from Vodafone as a backup to my iPhone for €40.

It has 512mb of RAM and 4GB of storage!!!

And it cost €40 !!

AlekSmart

devnull wrote: »

...

There is a much faster version of this machine that was introduced almost six years ago to overcome some of the problems as listed above with the existing machine. It has over 100 times more memory, much more modern technology and a much faster processor.

...

Really the NTA need to try and get their finger out and give some money up to try and replace these older machines or at least contribute something to them.

...

Again Devnull,I feel that you have hit-the-bullseye.

10 years ago,the NTA's Integrated Ticketing Implimentation Group,inter alia,the Department of Transport,would have been fully aware of the technical requirements of the Leapcard,or if not then we need to know WHY not,however they decided,in keeping with the overall whimsical attitude to the ITS project,to plough on anyway and fix whatever issues arose,when they arose.

Not unsurprisingly,the issues have arisen,and are continuing to arise,with a rather glaring lack of any admission or acceptance of them.

Right now,Leapcards future for on-Bus use is hanging in the balance as Leap customers continually face small but ongoing difficulties which the entire system is designed to avoid...the ITS system is designed to be easier,more convienent and faster than cash.....That primary advantage has now been thrown away and will prove very difficult to regain.

The ONLY answer...NEW TICKET MACHINES- NOW.

Victor

bk wrote: »

To put this in context, I've just bought a prepay android smartphone from Vodafone as a backup to my iPhone for €40.

It has 512mb of RAM and 4GB of storage!!!

And it cost €40 !!

In fairness, such prices on mobile phones are subsidised. You need to look at the price of the same phone that isn't tied to one network.

L1011

Victor wrote: »

In fairness, such prices on mobile phones are subsidised. You need to look at the price of the same phone that isn't tied to one network.

You can easily get one of that spec for that money, new, unsubsidised and unlocked. Will be a Chinese brand you've never heard of and a Mediatek core, but there's still at least two people (manufacturer and reseller) making a profit margin on it.

Go to €70-80 and you'll get multi-core Mediatek, 1GB RAM and 16GB storage.

cdebru

K

MYOB wrote: »

You can easily get one of that spec for that money, new, unsubsidised and unlocked. Will be a Chinese brand you've never heard of and a Mediatek core, but there's still at least two people (manufacturer and reseller) making a profit margin on it.

Go to €70-80 and you'll get multi-core Mediatek, 1GB RAM and 16GB storage.

Kind of pointless discussion either way, its a mobile phone not a ticket machine, its comparing apples and oranges.
One is a mass market device with free OS the other a specialised equipment with a very limited small market.

devnull

AlekSmart wrote: »

Again Devnull,I feel that you have hit-the-bullseye.

The ONLY answer...NEW TICKET MACHINES- NOW.

Who funded the Wayfarer TGX150 for Dublin Bus? Since it was introduced a very short time before the TGX200 was due to come out. Did Dublin Bus get a good deal because the technology was about to be replaced?

It's amusing to see that now Bus Eireann are rolling out 'new' ticket machiens to their own fleet. The type? The same TGX150 machines that we have on Dublin Bus. Can someone explain to me the logic of buying and installing systems which are already many years out of date and yesterdays technology?

antoinolachtnai

The NTA supplied equipment for private operators is basically a Motorola Xoom tablet.

Dublin Bus, not the NTA, chooses electronic ticketing machinesel for Dublin Buses. This might change but this is how it is and how DB wanted and wants it.

The stuff about crypto is not really correct. The crypto is done on the NTA supplied card reader, not on the ticket machine. There is however the marvellous world of RS485 serial bus communications to contend with. It is tricky to integrate but this is really an issue for DB and its supplier.

L1011

cdebru wrote: »

K
Kind of pointless discussion either way, its a mobile phone not a ticket machine, its comparing apples and oranges.
One is a mass market device with free OS the other a specialised equipment with a very limited small market.

Ticket machine software can now easily be implemented on mass-market hardware, as can nearly everything else.