"Leap" into the unknown: The feedback thread

Victor

n0brain3r wrote: »

Hi guys sorry to butt in but I was wondering about a refund I received from Veolia.

Basically I couldn't tag off after a cancelled Luas service and I wasn't sure what would happen so I called Leap who put me onto Veolia to query it. They said they'd look into it and a few weeks later the cheque arrived for 90c! Surely this should of been refunded to the card

That is the current procedure. Luas are currently testing micro-refunds.

ThreeLineWhip wrote: »

Auto top up will be a thieves charter.

There will be a window where the system can be abused.

Not as much as you think.

'Floyd' goes into a shop, buys a Leap Card for €10 (€5 useable deposit, €5 balance). Floyd proceeds to register the card under a fake name and fake bank account. The fake bank account gets flagged and the card is put on a hot list. The next day, when Floyd goes to use his card, it is rejected. Result: Floyd gets about 2 days travel for €10.

So Floyd goes into the shop again, buys a Leap Card for €10 (€5 useable deposit, €5 balance). This time Floyd runs the balance down to -€1 and proceeds to register the card under his own name and real bank account. However, there is no money in the account. Floyd uses the card and gets his auto top-up (for free!). Floyd then uses his card on 15 buses that day, using up the entire top-up. The next day, when Floyd goes to use his card, it is rejected. Floyd's bank then contact's Floyd to tell him the direct debit has bounced and that this incurs a €15 fee. Floyd refuses to pay and the bank closes the account, putting Floyd on their own hotlist. Result: Floyd gets about 2-3 days travel for €10.

Not much different from the cost of a multi-day ticket.

Dravokivich

Victor, wouldn't he have to topup himself as well while on a negative balance? Seeing as validators reject transactions when the card is negative.

Victor

Dravokivich wrote: »

Victor, wouldn't he have to topup himself as well while on a negative balance? Seeing as validators reject transactions when the card is negative.

I only found out about this requirement this morning. :embarrassed:

BobSmith128

I am part of the auto top up trial group on the Leap card.

Around a week ago as I tagged on at my local train station - my jaw dropped to see nearly 50 euro on my card.
I checked my account the following day when the system had updated with the latest transactions and I saw an auto top up of 30 euro.
Normally this wouldn't be an issue but my balance was not below 10 euro - in fact it was nearly 15 euro.
So the auto top up activated when my balance was above 10 Euros.
Clearly as part of any trial there will be bugs in the system and this is the risk you take for being part of the trial. Still this top up over 10 Euros is a very basic error indeed.

So I emailed Leap Customer Care who forwarded my email to the Leap Back Office. They replied saying that this issue was being escalated to the NTA who will liaise with Irish Rail to rectify the problem. They did admit that my card was credited when my balance went below 15 euro.

Anyway it’s not a huge issue as I use my Leap Card daily and my balance will reduce quickly enough. Still a basic error here from what I can deduce.

No further replies as of yet - so will wait on feedback from NTA / Irish Rail.

MOH

BobSmith128 wrote: »

I am part of the auto top up trial group on the Leap card.

Around a week ago as I tagged on at my local train station - my jaw dropped to see nearly 50 euro on my card.
I checked my account the following day when the system had updated with the latest transactions and I saw an auto top up of 30 euro.
Normally this wouldn't be an issue but my balance was not below 10 euro - in fact it was nearly 15 euro.
So the auto top up activated when my balance was above 10 Euros.
Clearly as part of any trial there will be bugs in the system and this is the risk you take for being part of the trial. Still this top up over 10 Euros is a very basic error indeed.

So I emailed Leap Customer Care who forwarded my email to the Leap Back Office. They replied saying that this issue was being escalated to the NTA who will liaise with Irish Rail to rectify the problem. They did admit that my card was credited when my balance went below 15 euro.

Anyway it’s not a huge issue as I use my Leap Card daily and my balance will reduce quickly enough. Still a basic error here from what I can deduce.

No further replies as of yet - so will wait on feedback from NTA / Irish Rail.

Is there any change that the maximum fare would have pushed it below 10 euro?

So you tag on, it temporarily reserves the maximum fare off the card, pushes the balance below 10, tops it up, and then refunds the excess when you tag off?

(If that is the case, it's astonishing that no-one developing the system considered that).

goingnowhere

Its by design

If the balance on the card 14.29 or less when the tag on happened, -4.30 deducts.

Balance on the card did go below the trigger value

BobSmith128

MOH wrote: »

Is there any change that the maximum fare would have pushed it below 10 euro?

So you tag on, it temporarily reserves the maximum fare off the card, pushes the balance below 10, tops it up, and then refunds the excess when you tag off?

(If that is the case, it's astonishing that no-one developing the system considered that).

No.
The balance was 18.85.
Irish Rail tag on took 4.50 off when I tagged on.
The balance was reduced to 14.35

So the balance was clearly above 10 euros after the maximum fare was deducted. You can see with the attached jpg.
The order of tag on / auto top up is reversed but you can still work out the balance minus the 30 euro.

goingnowhere

Question then did you select 10 or 15 euro as the trigger amount?

Dravokivich

goingnowhere wrote: »

Question then did you select 10 or 15 euro as the trigger amount?

There's only 1 threshold.

Could it of happened when the card was being configured for the auto topup?

goingnowhere

Strictly speaking the trigger amount is actually set by the card reader.

BobSmith128

Clearly states on the email I received from Leap Customer Care when I signed up for the trial that ".....once you activate Auto Top-Up for the first time, your card will automatically top up whenever your balance goes below €10 while using it on any service that accepts Leap Card....."

Could be an issue with the card readers of Irish Rail?
Hopefully a response from NTA or Irish Rail will shed some more light on this.

MOH

goingnowhere wrote: »

Its by design

If the balance on the card 14.29 or less when the tag on happened, -4.30 deducts.

Balance on the card did go below the trigger value

If that is the case, then the whole system is a joke.

Forcing a top-up of €30 on people because the system temporarily took the maximum fare off, as opposed to basing it on the actual cost of their transaction, is farcical.

A lot of people are going to be caught out by unexpected topups, possibly when they can't afford them at the time.

Nermal

MOH wrote: »

A lot of people are going to be caught out by unexpected topups, possibly when they can't afford them at the time.

Don't turn it on if you're living paycheque to paycheque...

Victor

MOH wrote: »

Forcing a top-up of €30 on people because the system temporarily took the maximum fare off, as opposed to basing it on the actual cost of their transaction, is farcical.

But what if they don't tag-off at the other end?

MOH

Victor wrote: »

But what if they don't tag-off at the other end?

Then the difference isn't refunded, and the card is topped up.

The way this seems to be working now, is that effectively, all DART LEAP journeys now cost the maximum fare. Although you get a partial refund if you tag off. Assuming the validator is working.

[edit]
Sorry, half asleep.
The simplest solution is only apply top-ups at tag-off.
Problem solved.

Victor

MOH wrote: »

Then the difference isn't refunded, and the card is topped up.

The way this seems to be working now, is that effectively, all DART LEAP journeys now cost the maximum fare. Although you get a partial refund if you tag off. Assuming the validator is working.

[edit]
Sorry, half asleep.
The simplest solution is only apply top-ups at tag-off.
Problem solved.

But you don't tag-off with buses!

MOH

Victor wrote: »

But you don't tag-off with buses!

But the problem doesn't arise with buses

MOH

Besides which, the buses don't have a real-time connection.
How do they apply a topup anyway?

Even simpler solution: apply the top up based on the balance at the start of the transaction, not after it.

Victor

MOH wrote: »

How do they apply a topup anyway?

If you can imagine the current system as 'pushing' the top-up to the card, auto top-up 'pulls' the money to the card - you use the card, it is recognised as having a low balance. it ask the validator for a top-up and this works all the way back to your bank account.

Even simpler solution: apply the top up based on the balance at the start of the transaction, not after it.

Then the trigger level would need to be higher.

MOH

Victor wrote: »

If you can imagine the current system as 'pushing' the top-up to the card, auto top-up 'pulls' the money to the card - you use the card, it is recognised as having a low balance. it ask the validator for a top-up and this works all the way back to your bank account.

Then the trigger level would need to be higher.

Why? What's the maximum single transaction amount across the network ?
Or else apply at end by default, if not sufficient balance for current transaction apply at start.

Victor

MOH wrote: »

What's the maximum single transaction amount across the network ?

If I'm right, rail: €4.30, bus €6.00 (Airlink)

MOH wrote: »

Why?

It would need to be higher to stop someone defrauding the system by spending more than €10 in the tiem it takes hte top-up to be approved by the bank, which might take a day or two.

MOH wrote: »

Or else apply at end by default, if not sufficient balance for current transaction apply at start.

But what if someone forgets to tag off?

Esoteric_

Not particularly happy using a Leap Card, less than a week after getting it. However, it's more of a rant against the drivers, not the Leap Card itself. Three times I've been over-charged, after clearly stating the fare I needed to pay to the driver. :mad: At least when I'm paying cash, they don't make mistakes (except that 90% of them don't give change receipts :pac: ).

I was on a 123 earlier and being observant of how the boarding passengers were paying. The vast majority still paid with cash. This makes me think that people aren't being put off by the higher fares, they're just paying up anyway.

MOH

Victor wrote: »

If I'm right, rail: €4.30, bus €6.00 (Airlink)
It would need to be higher to stop someone defrauding the system by spending more than €10 in the tiem it takes hte top-up to be approved by the bank, which might take a day or two.

But what if someone forgets to tag off?

Sorry, I'm obviously missing something here.
As I understand it, the trigger amount for auto top ups is supposedly €10.
Maximum rail fare is €4.30.
But if you tag on for any DART journey with less than €14.30 on your card, the system will initially deduct the €4.30, triggering the top up, despite the fact that your journey might be costing less than that and you wouldn't be expecting a topup.

There's no issue on buses, since you get charged the correct fare in the first place, instead of being overcharged/refunded.

So two solutions:
1. Apply the topup at tag off, after the journey cost has been correctly calculated. For single tag systems (i.e. buses) leave it as it is now.
Problem: If you don't tag off, for a number of trips in a row, you may run out of credit.

2. For all modes: Apply the topup at the *start* of the transaction, based on the current (pre-transaction) balance of the card. If I've got €10.01 on my card, don't top me up. So for an Airlink, that could leave my card balance at €4.01. But that doesn't matter, since on my next trip anywhere, I'll be topped up at the start of the transaction anyway.

It doesn't matter if I'm on a train and don't tag off, I'll still be deducted the max fare anyway, again my card will temporarily be below the minimum, but I'll be topped up at the start of my next trip.

There's no downside to the customer. In fact they're infinitesimally better off, since the money is still in their account instead of whatever account the LEAP funds are gathering interest in.
Of course, it's worse for the transport companies, since instead of having €34.01 of the customer's money they've only got €4.01.

But of course the auto top-up feature is purely about benefiting the customer. Isn't it?

markpb

Karsini wrote: »

I was on a 123 earlier and being observant of how the boarding passengers were paying. The vast majority still paid with cash. This makes me think that people aren't being put off by the higher fares, they're just paying up anyway.

I think the problem with their approach is that they only increased cash a little. They'll probably increase it a little more this year too. People will bitch and moan about small increases but it won't force them to change.

Also IIRC they also increased the Leap fares, just by less than cash. This sends out the wrong message to customers.

Shock therapy with a noticeable increase in cash fares and a slight discount in Leap fares is the way forward but it's politically difficult so it won't happen.

trellheim

I got a 66 from Wellington quay during the week at evening rush and it was noticeable that of the typical large board (20-30) at this stop there was 3 cash payers, ,the rest was 50/50 leap and commuter passes. *( And by leap I mean slapping it on the drivers reader and asking for a specific fare, no idea about leaps on the right hand side )

I really think leap bus should be flat rated for 90 mins travel and ditch all other tickets #winner

Dravokivich

Ehm, Irish rail takes off 4.50 when tagging on.

carlmango11

markpb wrote: »

Shock therapy with a noticeable increase in cash fares and a slight discount in Leap fares is the way forward but it's politically difficult so it won't happen.

As things are now though I don't see any benefit in trying to push people to using Leap cards on DB. They're slower than cash most of the time. I'm still in disbelief that DB actually went ahead with that system of telling the driver what fare you want for Leap card journeys.

markpb

carlmango11 wrote: »

As things are now though I don't see any benefit in trying to push people to using Leap cards on DB. They're slower than cash most of the time. I'm still in disbelief that DB actually went ahead with that system of telling the driver what fare you want for Leap card journeys.

Yeah, that's entirely true.

trellheim

I'm still in disbelief that DB actually went ahead with that system of telling the driver what fare you want for Leap card journeys.

Wasn't it DTTAS forcing the retention of the stage-based fare system that did that, rather than DB having a choice ?