Privatize Irish Rail, yay or nay?

corktina

etchyed wrote: »

You don't.

do tell.
The Kingdom bit is the traditional three kingdoms in Great Britain which united centuries ago The Northern Ireland bit was added on in the 20th century as you no doubt know. The Country is commonly called the United Kingdom but it is offically the United Kingdom AND Northern Ireland.
In other words the Kingdom bit doesnt refer to NI...if it did, there would be no need to add the "And Northern Ireland" bit, any more than you have to add "And Wales". Quite obvious if you think about it.(especially as to my certain knowledge there has never been a King Of Northern Ireland.

Typewriter

corktina wrote: »

do tell.
The Kingdom bit is the traditional three kingdoms in Great Britain which united centuries ago The Northern Ireland bit was added on in the 20th century as you no doubt know. The Country is commonly called the United Kingdom but it is offically the United Kingdom AND Northern Ireland.
In other words the Kingdom bit doesnt refer to NI...if it did, there would be no need to add the "And Northern Ireland" bit, any more than you have to add "And Wales". Quite obvious if you think about it.(especially as to my certain knowledge there has never been a King Of Northern Ireland.

Nope

corktina

fake :-)

blarney_boy

I doubt if ireland has enough population density to make the train network profitable, but competition from the private sector can be positive, saw this article yesterday about new private high speed trains that are to be introduced in italy http://www.smh.com.au/photogallery/travel/italys-new-ferrari-fast-trains-20111214-1oug9.html we can only dream of something similar happening in ireland

Richard

corktina wrote: »

do tell.
The Kingdom bit is the traditional three kingdoms in Great Britain which united centuries ago The Northern Ireland bit was added on in the 20th century as you no doubt know. The Country is commonly called the United Kingdom but it is offically the United Kingdom AND Northern Ireland.
In other words the Kingdom bit doesnt refer to NI...if it did, there would be no need to add the "And Northern Ireland" bit, any more than you have to add "And Wales". Quite obvious if you think about it.(especially as to my certain knowledge there has never been a King Of Northern Ireland.

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland joined together the Kingdom of Ireland and Great Britain into one "United" kingdom in 1801. The name was changed in 1927 to reflect the formation of the Irish Free State 5 years earlier.

The current name of UKoGBaNI does not mean that either GB or NI is a kingdom, it just means that they are both part of one.

Now, to get back on topic - if there is to be a privatised Irish Rail, it should be part of a comprehensive restructuring of rail services on the island. NIR should also be privitised and the infrastructure should either remain in each government's hands, or should be combined into a joint company that is jointly owned.

-Chris-

This thread was started by a Troll. I left it open because it could be an interesting discussion.

If it doesn't get back on topic, I'm going to have to close it.

CIE

Richard wrote: »

Now, to get back on topic - if there is to be a privatised Irish Rail, it should be part of a comprehensive restructuring of rail services on the island. NIR should also be privitised and the infrastructure should either remain in each government's hands, or should be combined into a joint company that is jointly owned.

There's no need for state-owned railway infrastructure. If the railway carries freight at sufficient volumes as to keep the bottom line well-satisfied (as it is very possible to do), then the operating company can pay for its own infrastructure out of pocket instead of having to depend on the government for any cash to cover it.

One may have noticed that having all controlled by the state, which includes the railway company operating lorries, creates a conflict of interest where the state sees no advantage to its politically-determined bottom line by maintaining "competing" types of infrastructure. (That is, until they get hit by massive snowstorms and discover that the roads are much harder and more expensive to keep clear than railways. The long-term costs of road maintenance will also mount up.)

bbam

Sell the damn thing to anyone who's interested..
We live in Cavan and like lots of other folks our rail network is just something fancy that Dublin folk talk about..:(

CIE

Wouldn't mind being able to take a train to Cavan, even to visit my relatives in Ballyjamesduff. Used to be a MGWR line going there via Mullingar, from Inny Junction. Cavan town was once quite the railway hub.

Judgement Day

CIE wrote: »

Wouldn't mind being able to take a train to Cavan, even to visit my relatives in Ballyjamesduff. Used to be a MGWR line going there via Mullingar, from Inny Junction. Cavan town was once quite the railway hub.

Yep, and it would have made a lot more sense to reopen Inny Junction/Cavan than the WRC but there was no pressure group.

CIE

Judgement Day wrote: »

Yep, and it would have made a lot more sense to reopen Inny Junction/Cavan than the WRC but there was no pressure group.

Government types love those that pit one railway against the other, as though they were in competition for funds or something. AAMOF, I submit that kind of thinking as evidence that we do need privatisation, and the sooner the better.

Richard

CIE wrote: »

There's no need for state-owned railway infrastructure. If the railway carries freight at sufficient volumes as to keep the bottom line well-satisfied (as it is very possible to do), then the operating company can pay for its own infrastructure out of pocket instead of having to depend on the government for any cash to cover it.

There's bugger all freight on the railways in Ireland, though. It isn't extensive enough to be useful for that. Why send something by lorry, train, then lorry again, when you can send it by lorry the whole way? - it'll be cheaper and as fast if not faster.

Even in GB, where there is some freight, the tracks and stations are now back in Government hands.

I think something similar could happen in Ireland with the tracks and stations kept in a jointly owned cross-border state company and the rest of NIR/IE sold off.

CIE

Richard wrote: »

There's bugger all freight on the railways in Ireland, though. It isn't extensive enough to be useful for that. Why send something by lorry, train, then lorry again, when you can send it by lorry the whole way? - it'll be cheaper and as fast if not faster.

Even in GB, where there is some freight, the tracks and stations are now back in Government hands.

I think something similar could happen in Ireland with the tracks and stations kept in a jointly owned cross-border state company and the rest of NIR/IE sold off.

It'll never be cheaper. Roads aren't even faster and they're subject to traffic jams.

I hope we haven't forgotten that the reason that there is less freight on the rails in Ireland is all down to the government? They made a unilateral decision to downgrade the railfreight business; it had nothing to do with profitability or lack of same, because they weren't losing money when they suddenly decided out of the blue to cut railfreight by 40 percent. That's what you call a conflict of interest.

foggy_lad

CIE wrote: »

It'll never be cheaper. Roads aren't even faster and they're subject to traffic jams.

I hope we haven't forgotten that the reason that there is less freight on the rails in Ireland is all down to the government? They made a unilateral decision to downgrade the railfreight business; it had nothing to do with profitability or lack of same, because they weren't losing money when they suddenly decided out of the blue to cut railfreight by 40 percent. That's what you call a conflict of interest.

OK, the reason freight is dead in Ireland is the cost involved in double and triple handling goods into and out of railway yards and on and off of trains!

If you own a large company that wants to move 5 containers a day to a port your fastest and cheapest option is by road, your company will not be linked to any railway line as this would be too complex and involve too much red tape and you would have to get into bed with CIE, you would need to bring those 5 containers to your nearest rail freight yard by road costing you quite a lot for loading and unloading plus extras when drivers are left hanging around freight yards when goods inwards staff cant be found. then it is loaded onto a train wagon and left till the next train is ready to take it onwards to the nearest freight yard to its destination where it is unloaded and left to be collected by lorry and driver again costing you even more!

Far cheaper to drive it by road all the way in a country the size of Ireland!

corktina

foggy is spot on and CIE lives in a bit of a dreamworld if he thinks roads arent faster!

Whilst you are messing around transferring your container to the rail depot, (which might actually be in the opposite direction to where your goods are heading), that container would be winging its way to destination on the road.

As for traffic jams, well the Port Tunnel will have removed the majority of them single-handedly not to mention other road improvements. Traffic jams are nowhere near what they were pre-motorway.

Its also cheaper due to the less labour required and the non-union rate wages paid in a competitive world of independant road hauliers.

The short nature of freight hauls in Ireland and the lack of bulk cargoes are what made it uncompetitive, It's nothing to do with Government.We have a different adminstration now and yet there is no move mooted back to rail and no clamour from Industry for mre freight facilities.

foggy_lad

corktina wrote: »

foggy is spot on and CIE lives in a bit of a dreamworld if he thinks roads arent faster!

Whilst you are messing around transferring your container to the rail depot, (which might actually be in the opposite direction to where your goods are heading), that container would be winging its way to destination on the road.

As for traffic jams, well the Port Tunnel will have removed the majority of them single-handedly not to mention other road improvements. Traffic jams are nowhere near what they were pre-motorway.

Its also cheaper due to the less labour required and the non-union rate wages paid in a competitive world of independant road hauliers.

The short nature of freight hauls in Ireland and the lack of bulk cargoes are what made it uncompetitive, It's nothing to do with Government.We have a different adminstration now and yet there is no move mooted back to rail and no clamour from Industry for mre freight facilities.

Labour costs and health and safety and Nothing else killed off most railways. Years ago tara mines trains would be unloaded by hand by thousands of big burly dockers most of whom left school at 7-10 and who couldnt read or write, they were the unwashed masses who were used as slaves because they were paid little for 70-80hour weeks, they knew no better and were kept ignorant so they would not revolt. then things were slowly imprioved but along with this came increased costs and mechanisation and suddenly 100 workers could do the same work that 1000 had done, they were also paid better as semi-skilled operatives but still worked long hours for buttons.

Nowadays the minimum wage and more specifically union rates makes sure that Irish Rail will never again be competitive for freight services in Ireland.

Losty Dublin

foggy_lad wrote: »

Labour costs and health and safety and Nothing else killed off most railways. Years ago tara mines trains would be unloaded by hand by thousands of big burly dockers most of whom left school at 7-10 and who couldnt read or write, they were the unwashed masses who were used as slaves because they were paid little for 70-80hour weeks, they knew no better and were kept ignorant so they would not revolt. then things were slowly imprioved but along with this came increased costs and mechanisation and suddenly 100 workers could do the same work that 1000 had done, they were also paid better as semi-skilled operatives but still worked long hours for buttons.

Mineral traffic from Navan has been machine loaded and unloaded at both ends of it's journey from day one.

As an aside, your patronising language about dock staff just shows your usual level of ignorance.

L1011

Losty, did you think Tara Mines opened in 1930 or what?

Losty Dublin

MYOB wrote: »

Losty, did you think Tara Mines opened in 1930 or what?

I know they didn't. You perhaps should ask our resident ignoramus what he reckons first

-Chris-

Losty Dublin wrote: »

I know they didn't. You perhaps should ask our resident ignoramus what he reckons first

Relax with the name calling.

foggy_lad

Losty Dublin wrote: »

I know they didn't. You perhaps should ask our resident ignoramus what he reckons first

Well of course Tara mines trains weren't around but every other piece of coal or anything that was moved by rail or sea was handled by tens of thousands of unskilled dock workers, they were uneducated and nothing more than slaves but that was the way things were done at the time.

On privatising Irish rail well they never really came out of the steam age completely and still continue with many antiquated work practices related to old signaling and the steam era which no private company will tolerate so it should be asked what company would have them?

L1011

Losty Dublin wrote: »

I know they didn't. You perhaps should ask our resident ignoramus what he reckons first

Oops. Foggy, I meant (and I suspect you understood). Five letters ending in a Y....

foggy_lad wrote: »

Well of course Tara mines trains weren't around but every other piece of coal or anything...

Why did you mention Tara than? Tara opened in the late 70s, well in the era of mechanisation

gsxr1

The Unions will never let private companies come in to take over the running.

Even with contractors work. There has to be a certain amount of railway men there to oversee the work at all times.