Privatize Irish Rail, yay or nay?

Alan_H_1991

Privatize Irish Rail, yay or nay?

-Chris-

What's your opinion on the pros and cons of privatisation Alan?

(and don't say something like "well, it can't be any worse than it currently is" please...)

corktina

NAY. Why? well to Privatize it you would be giving away a valuable state asset, with no control of quality or level of service.

Were you to have said contract out the services and set up an Infrastructure company to own the track etc, then Id have said Yay.

who the fug

Well don't follow the UK model where the public gets shafted twice

once when paying the operator a subsidy
second when you have to buy a ticket


Privatisation is not an instant cure


Also don’t be impressed by a slap of paint , and ability to buy tickets online

CIE

corktina wrote: »

NAY. Why? well to Privatize it you would be giving away a valuable state asset, with no control of quality or level of service

No control? What makes you think you have any control of quality at all with state control? Seems to me none at all.

We all know what the politicians think of rail in terms of being a "valuable state asset": continue to close more lines and all the rest save Dublin-Cork and Dublin-Belfast run at absurdly low speeds that would be laughed at in the steam era. Upgrade the roads to mid-20th-century standards (after a half-century of not doing so) and ignore the technological advancements of the railways, keeping them anachronistically stuck in the 1950s/60s. Worry about paint schemes more than upgrading operations.

I've yet to find any legitimate reason for the creation of Coras Iompair Eireann. It wasn't like GNR and GSR were losing so much money that they were going to go under instantaneously; they could have recovered without state interference. And most of the railway closures occurred under CIE anyhow.

corktina wrote: »

Were you to have said contract out the services and set up an Infrastructure company to own the track etc, then I'd have said Yay

Cite even one successful example of that. None exist. Luas isn't one.

BrianD

Can't see the consumer benefit. ALl you do is transfer a monopoly from the public to the private sector. The private sector does not have a great history of looking after the consumer if they have a monopoly. Prices go up to pay the guys at the top.

I think IR is too small for to be anything but a state body and I also think that the network is to small for any competitors to enter the market.

corktina

CIE wrote: »

No control? What makes you think you have any control of quality at all with state control? Seems to me none at all.

We all know what the politicians think of rail in terms of being a "valuable state asset": continue to close more lines and all the rest save Dublin-Cork and Dublin-Belfast run at absurdly low speeds that would be laughed at in the steam era. Upgrade the roads to mid-20th-century standards (after a half-century of not doing so) and ignore the technological advancements of the railways, keeping them anachronistically stuck in the 1950s/60s. Worry about paint schemes more than upgrading operations.

I've yet to find any legitimate reason for the creation of Coras Iompair Eireann. It wasn't like GNR and GSR were losing so much money that they were going to go under instantaneously; they could have recovered without state interference. And most of the railway closures occurred under CIE anyhow.Cite even one successful example of that. None exist. Luas isn't one.

YAY or NAY then?

Niles

Personally I don't agree with the idea of selling off essential state assets, though I wouldn't have a problem with private freight operators being allowed in, or indeed private passenger services if they're willing to provide a better service on the likes of Waterford-Limerick, etc, subject to it meet set requirements (perhaps outlined by the NTA). Ideally these services would be contracted out by the State, similar to the way Bus Éireann contracts some school bus routes to private operators. Of course whether or not a private company would be willing to invest in such a different a service is a different question!

CIE

BrianD wrote: »

All you do is transfer a monopoly from the public to the private sector. The private sector does not have a great history of looking after the consumer if they have a monopoly

Before CIE, there wasn't a monopoly. It might be tenuously argued that there was a near-monopoly due to the size of the GSR, but it still wasn't there until the CIE takeover.

Hilly Bill

Nay.

CIE

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Nay.

Wherefore?

corktina

GNR was brought into the fold as they were pretty much bankrupt, as were pretty much all the other railways come to that, but particularly GNR

Manach

I'd consider privatisation as usually this sector introduces competition to drive down costs for the benefit of the clients. However, given the nature of the rail network, having this competition in place would be very problematic.

Hilly Bill

CIE wrote: »

Wherefore?

What?

kawasaki1100

Its yay for me, their looseing a fortune anyway and we are paying through the nose for that. Why does a train ticket cost you more on a friday than any other day of the week? Its bonkers!

kawasaki1100

kawasaki1100 wrote: »

Its yay for me, their looseing a fortune anyway and we are paying through the nose for that. Why does a train ticket cost you more on a friday than any other day of the week? Its bonkers!

Privatise IE and that ticket will cost a lot more.

Ben Hadad

It a pointless debate unfortunately. CIE is such a badly run company and is so far away from ever even breaking even, no private investor in their right mind would buy it.

But as a hypothetical question I would beg a private company to take it over. In fact I would pay a company to take it over. CIE is the worst run organisation I have ever seen in my life, and this is coming from an Irish person. It is a total joke, and a cancerous drain on the country primarily caused by ridiculous wages paid to its staff members, who in the main are quite rude and ignorant not just to paying customers but to the damage they are doing to the nations finances.

It is an abyss of a sink hole for our cash.

kawasaki1100

Karsini wrote: »

Privatise IE and that ticket will cost a lot more.

Your floggin a dead horse on that one. As it is they priceing themselves out of the market. The bus operators have it sussed, hey even bus eireann have it sussed.:D

kawasaki1100

kawasaki1100 wrote: »

Your floggin a dead horse on that one. As it is they priceing themselves out of the market. The bus operators have it sussed, hey even bus eireann have it sussed.:D

Maybe, but that's exactly what happened in the UK - fares went up when the service went into private hands.

kawasaki1100

Karsini wrote: »

Maybe, but that's exactly what happened in the UK - fares went up when the service went into private hands.

I agree with you about the UK, the problem was there there were too many private hands thus delivering a bad service also.
IE is small enough to be run as a business by a privateer, the way its been run now is a joke.

Niles

Ben Hadad wrote: »

It a pointless debate unfortunately. CIE is such a badly run company and is so far away from ever even breaking even, no private investor in their right mind would buy it.

But as a hypothetical question I would beg a private company to take it over. In fact I would pay a company to take it over. CIE is the worst run organisation I have ever seen in my life, and this is coming from an Irish person. It is a total joke, and a cancerous drain on the country primarily caused by ridiculous wages paid to its staff members, who in the main are quite rude and ignorant not just to paying customers but to the damage they are doing to the nations finances.

It is an abyss of a sink hole for our cash.

It being "badly run" doesn't necessarily mean that it should be privatised... it could remain in State ownership while at same time undergo a restructuring to make it better. Likewise making it private doesn't automatically mean it will or won't be run well either. As for the staff, it's a bit of a generalisation to say that "in the main" they are rude, I've encountered plenty of helpful and friendly staff on the ground. Besides, if it was privatised in the morning I would imagine many of the staff would be recruited into the new company anyway. And lest anyone thinks so I don't work for the company nor do I have any relatives in it.

kawasaki1100

Niles wrote: »

It being "badly run" doesn't necessarily mean that it should be privatised... it could remain in State ownership while at same time undergo a restructuring to make it better. Likewise making it private doesn't automatically mean it will or won't be run well either. As for the staff, it's a bit of a generalisation to say that "in the main" they are rude, I've encountered plenty of helpful and friendly staff on the ground. Besides, if it was privatised in the morning I would imagine many of the staff would be recruited into the new company anyway. And lest anyone thinks so I don't work for the company nor do I have any relatives in it.

Hmmm,a Michael O Leary person needs to go in there and kick ass, there is too much deadwood working for IE- sorry did i just say Working??

Drimnagh Road

I'd just like to see a bit more innitiative in the way routes are run, and as long as Irish Rail are continued to be bank rolled by the country unquestioned then I don't think they'll need show that initiative, why would they?

For example, the WRC might have a half chance of succeeding if it's potential to be linked with other regional routes was realised. Why not a direct 22000 from Cork-Galway calling at Mallow, Limerick, Ennis, Gort, Athenry and Galway every few hours? Journey time 3:15, would be competitive enough, have €10 fares and market rigourously focusing on the fact this is a corridor linking three key cities via at least two major regional towns (Mallow & Ennis).

Maybe the same would work with a Waterford-Galway link? Somehow I don't think Irish Rail are the people to get something Enterprising like these off the grounds. I'm not saying they would work, but I can guarantee you ideas such as these have not been looked at, because there isn't the interest. And that's what I'm on about by initiative. A privatised company might be more willing to look at getting the most out of what's in front of them.

With privatisation, subsidies will need to be continued to be paid of course. Could that be counter-acted by ensuring the best possible value for that subsidy?

For example when the Minister for Transport is accepting bids from operators for routes, could his team say right we want you to increase numbers on the WRC by 20%, Cork route by 10% etc etc in the first 12 months of operation, increase operating efficencies by 20%, reduce operating costs by 15% without impacting services? How would you do it? Okay company A gets the contract.

kawasaki1100

I honestly think the horse has bolted on this one. The Gov should have sold IE during the boom when it was attractive and when people were still working, now like everything else they have blown it. But i am glad the pensioners can still travel free on it.

Judgement Day

kawasaki1100 wrote: »

I honestly think the horse has bolted on this one. The Gov should have sold IE during the boom when it was attractive and when people were still working, now like everything else they have blown it. But i am glad the pensioners can still travel free on it.

I'm not sure whether you are a pensioner or if you were being sarcastic but assuming the latter, perhaps you will be lucky enough to live long enough to get a travel pass yourself. Attacking pensioners free travel is just another way of playing into the hands of the Government who are delighted to see different factions of the populace turning on each other rather than them. Divide and conquer is alive and well in 21st century Ireland.

kawasaki1100

Judgement Day wrote: »

I'm not sure whether you are a pensioner or if you were being sarcastic but assuming the latter, perhaps you will be lucky enough to live long enough to get a travel pass yourself. Attacking pensioners free travel is just another way of playing into the hands of the Government who are delighted to see different factions of the populace turning on each other rather than them. Divide and conquer is alive and well in 21st century Ireland.

Well i am afraid you are wrong in your assumption, none of the above apply to me. I fact due to our glorious Govt and their pals i now use Ryanair to get to work. At least for now iv got off our still sinking ship.

foggy_lad

So before CIE was formed there were several smaller bankrupt or failing railway companies which were then all gathered up into the one pot by the decision makers of the time and the government have been p1ssing our money at this failed group of companies ever since?

I take it the incompetants that were responsible for the old companies going bankrupt were given pride of place in operating and decision making in the newly formed CIE? as that is after all the irish way!

corktina

I don't think they were incompetant, it was the dreadful economic situation that Ireland were in and WW2 that caused the end nearly to be high. GSR stock in particular was pretty much all life expired

Hilly Bill

If CIE does get fully privatised and the travel cost goes up and the service doesnt get any better, what then? will you just want it to be changing hands until the few on here are happy?

runway16

Have to say "Nay".

For one, nobody could take it on without increasing fares, and cutting services in order to turn a profit, which is of course the raison d'etre of any private enterprise.

What does need to be done is for IE to be dismantled - and either split into one infrastructure provider / maintainer and an operator, or a new single entity which does both, which has a commercial mandate, can be thrown off certain rail lines (or all rail lines) for failing to deliver and is independently audited for every single item of cost and revenue so that it achieves the most value for the tax payer, and requires the smallest subsidy possible.

CIE

foggy_lad wrote: »

So before CIE was formed there were several smaller bankrupt or failing railway companies which were then all gathered up into the one pot by the decision makers of the time and the government have been p1ssing our money at this failed group of companies ever since?

I take it the incompetants that were responsible for the old companies going bankrupt were given pride of place in operating and decision making in the newly formed CIE? as that is after all the irish way

You have maybe half the story. The GSR was actually the beginning of state interference/ownership of the railways (formed by law; the 1924 Railways Act, for the purpose of monopolising all railways within the Free State). The company was well-known for being penny-pinchers: it was like pulling teeth to them to even get them to build the 800-class; they were late bloomers with dieselisation, preferring to maintain steamers built at the turn of the century with minimal upgrades such as using Belpaire fireboxes and superheating. Either way, they were not bankrupt when the state subsequently formed CIE; they were merged with the DUTC and formally absorbed by the state. The GSR were also involved in several trucking concerns and ran bus operations (as were the GNR) via takeovers, which meant they had conflicts of interest going, and of course since the government was paying for the roads while they had to pay for the rails out of pocket (story sound familiar?), their built-in conflicts of interest made them favour the government-cheese infrastructure over their own. And of course that got even worse when CIE took over, because they saw the railways in many places as "duplication" of infrastructure.

A lot of fully priivately-owned railways ended up failing in other countries not only due to punitive taxation and regulation, but of course government competing with them in terms of building up the infrastructure for competing modes of transport. Remember that many who were involved in Ireland's independence were rather left-wing (socialist and communist) in their thinking, and were fond of the bloated concept of state centralisation of transport (a tenet of the Communist Manifesto in fact; in their "ten planks", centralisation of transport is Plank 6).