Are Mac's worth the Money?

TheGroove

Is a macbook pro worth the 1200 euro?? What does it do that makes it so much better? Plus that doesn't even include the price of all the software?
Thoughts and opinions please?

Hal Emmerich

HOHOHO, this should be good.

My opinion - Total waste of Money and only attention seeking gob****es buy them.:)

You can buy a far better specced Windows Machine for same money, that all programs will work on.

yoyo

TheGroove wrote: »

Is a macbook pro worth the 1200 euro?? What does it do that makes it so much better? Plus that doesn't even include the price of all the software?
Thoughts and opinions please?

Your going to get many different opinions here, and in my opinion they arn't. However some things to note that they are of good build quality, generally have very good LCD displays, better than many Laptops comes with. The arguement is though if you spend €1200 on a decent laptop, you'll get excellent build quality and a good display, most of the time.
If you need OSX or a certain OSX software, then obviously you'll need a Mac of some kind due to not being legally allowed install OSX on a PC.
If you don't need OSX and Windows would suit then look at a decent Laptop, Toshiba, Samsung, Asus, MSI make decent machines. Some of the higher end Dell ones are good also. Negative points of Mac are:
* Not easily upgradeable, cant even change the battery!
* If you need Windows, be prepared to add on a windows license for virtualization or Boot Camp-Not cheap.
* Specs are usually quite standard, comparable to 700-800 machines (Although as pointed out the LCD screen may be better and things like the power connector on the Mac are generally better designed)
* For connecting Macs to a monitor/projector you usually need to buy a mini dvi-vga/dvi connector, from Apple which usually don't come cheap. Apple machines generally don't like the cheap knock offs you can get on ebay
* Laptops generally come with HDMI ports/eSATA ports which can have their uses, afaik Macs do not

Nick

yomamasflavour

It depends, not really fair to ask whether it's worth x, as it depends on the person buying it.

Macbooks are typically highly focused on aesthetics and finish quality, and their biggest selling point is the Mac operating system, which you can only run on a mac.
However they're generally not focused on the internal hardware and typically cost twice as much as a windows laptop with the same specification.

If you intend to run intensive applications, gaming, 3d work etc. then you would probably be better off looking at a windows based machine.
€1200 would easily buy you a very powerful laptop, where as it won't even buy you a 13" macbook.

TheGroove

yomamasflavour wrote: »

It depends, not really fair to ask whether it's worth x, as it depends on the person buying it.

Macbooks are typically highly focused on aesthetics and finish quality, and their biggest selling point is the Mac operating system, which you can only run on a mac.
However they're generally not focused on the internal hardware and typically cost twice as much as a windows laptop with the same specification.

If you intend to run intensive applications, gaming, 3d work etc. then you would probably be better off looking at a windows based machine.
€1200 would easily buy you a very powerful laptop, where as it won't even buy you a 13" macbook.

I was just using 1200 and macbook pro as an example, the intention is ideally is for a broader discussion... Thanks for your reply

Hal Emmerich

TheGroove wrote: »

I was just using 1200 and macbook pro as an example, the intention is ideally is for a broader discussion... Thanks for your reply

-_-

Are you one of those fellas that live under a bridge??

TheGroove

Hal Emmerich wrote: »

TheGroove wrote: »

I was just using 1200 and macbook pro as an example, the intention is ideally is for a broader discussion... Thanks for your reply

-_-

Are you one of those fellas that live under a bridge??

No a cave...
Or I could be a lonely single middle aged fat spectacled mother of two...
Or not, that's the beauty of the internet!!

TheGroove

TheGroove wrote: »

Hal Emmerich wrote: »

TheGroove wrote: »

I was just using 1200 and macbook pro as an example, the intention is ideally is for a broader discussion... Thanks for your reply

-_-

Are you one of those fellas that live under a bridge??

No a cave...
Or I could be a lonely single middle aged fat spectacled mother of two...
Or not, that's the beauty of the internet!!

P.s your the motherfu**er who answered a question in the technology section!

Trojan

Context: my last laptop was the Macbook Air 1,1 (first generation) which I got in early 2008. My current laptop is a high spec Asus U36SD (i5, 8GB, OCZ Vertex 3 120).

The Asus is high spec, but there is no comparison in terms of hardware build quality, even despite the MBA being first generation. Don't get me wrong, the Asus is pretty damn good, but the Mac is awesomeness personified when it comes to the tangible side of the hardware - the case, the screen, the touchpad, the keyboard, the lighting, even the packaging.

I'm not a fan of MacOSX, so chose to run Win7 on the MBA. Apart from the battery lasting 30-45 minutes of heavy use, the MBA had no problem with Win7

The spec, though, leaves a lot to be desired - even in the higher end Macbook Pros. You're getting a very expensive machine - usually at least one and a half times an equivalent Windows machine spec - and worse, you're often limited by arbitrary Apple hardware decisions that make it difficult or expensive to replace components. I'll give specific examples.

I had to get a trackpad and the Airport (wifi) card fixed in an MBP (not mine) recently - it was over €250 for both all in - pricey enough. The HDD failed in my MBA, first time under warranty, about a week after I got it. I had to pay to ship it to Apple, they replaced it and paid return shipping. Eighteen months later the replacement HDD failed, this time it's out of warranty. Apple quoted me over €200 to replace it again - with the exact same crappy hardware that's failed twice (!). I decided to spend €120 on a Runcore SSD and installed it myself. That option wasn't available first time because Apple chose a rare HDD model for the 1,1 (1.8" PATA ZIF).

So is there a conclusion? Well, I do absolutely love the look and feel of the Macbook Air - it's just awesome. When using MacOSX "It just works" - stuff like the sleep mode lasting for weeks, all that is nice. The multi-touch trackpad is super (ironic they pioneer this after forcing one-button mice on us for so long).

My two main issues are 1) I don't like the OS - not a problem, I run Windows on it. But 2) The Mac is expensive but good while there are no technical problems, but if you do get a problem with it it's very expensive to fix if you can't do it yourself, and from my experience reading the Apple support forum, they are not very responsive to customers who have problems.

YMMV.

TheUsual

Trojan wrote: »

The Asus is high spec, but there is no comparison in terms of hardware build quality, even despite the MBA being first generation. Don't get me wrong, the Asus is pretty damn good, but the Mac is awesomeness personified when it comes to the tangible side of the hardware - the case, the screen, the touchpad, the keyboard, the lighting, even the packaging.

Had the same problem with an older Asus laptop. Bulletproof software, no complaints but the thing fell apart like USB ports and the headphone socket.

Have an Acer now with everything an Apple has and it is a much better package, nothing worn or broken after use.

Duggy747

If you can afford a Macbook then you can afford a good-spec Windows laptop :pac:

Duke Leonal Felmet

Depends what you use it for. If, like the vast majority of people, you use a computer to surf the net, use office utilities and watch movies/play music, then macs are a waste of money, as you can achieve all off those things with a €400 Windows Laptop (Acer and Lenovo are good, reliable makes), and it will perform quite well if you manage it correctly (very easy).

If, however, you need to run programs like home video/audio editing (Cubase, Pro Tools), and the like, then you need to look beyond the €1000 mark. And then, you can think about maybe getting a mac.

Anyone who says you need to spend double on a mac for the first option above, is a mac fanboy, and should be ignored.

fionny

Not worth the money, fashion boxes.

LoGiE

If you have that kind of money to spend I'd have a look at what Lenovo has to offer. I've bought dozens of laptops for work through the years from all the big boys and have found Thinkpads to be the most reliable. I purchased a number of x220's and T420s a few months back and the feedback from users has been positive.

My other half is a die hard Mac supporter and I've often used her macbook pro for for web etc but unless your seriously into graphic design there is nothing it can do that a windows laptop cant. Therefore they fall into the Sony Vaio category for me, nice to look at but under-specced and over priced.

Paulw

Normally, I'm a PC user. I've a laptop and desktop at home (i7 processors, 8gb ram, lots of disk space, running Windows 7, 64bit). They do what I need.

But, I recently bought a Macbook Pro. While it's a good spec, and expensive, it does what I need, better than any PC I've had.

I use it for photo processing/editing.

Using Adobe products on the mac, they work faster and better than they do on the PC. The battery life is also a hell of a lot better on the mac. It's a combination of the hardware, the OS and the software applications that make it work so well.

I was more than willing to spend the extra, just for those two features, because they're important to me.

For me, it was never for a fashion item, it's purely practical and it does what I need.

ScumLord

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

If, however, you need to run programs like home video/audio editing (Cubase, Pro Tools), and the like, then you need to look beyond the €1000 mark. And then, you can think about maybe getting a mac.

Even then you can do it just as well with a PC, even the likes of after effects is getting extra features on windows that aren't available on Mac. I think windows 7 64bit levels the playing field and there's some real high quality parts at the high end of the market that put it on par with the build quality of macs.

tiernanobrien

Well for me I think they are (granted I got mine for 13" i5 €930). I've always had decent laptops on windows and think they're fine but they're not amazing. The mac is 1,0000000 times better than ANY equivalent 13" laptop. Its light, the battery last ridiculously long, its fast, the screen is really high quality, trackpad makes life easy etc. The build quility is flawless too.

Duke Leonal Felmet

tiernanobrien wrote: »

The mac is 1,0000000 times better than ANY equivalent 13" laptop.

You see, it's statements like this that make it hard for me to take Apple Fanz seriously.

I mean, has anyone had a mate who bought one, and out of nowhere suddenly became a major expert on the subject of why they are better than Windows PCs?

Funny, that...

ScumLord

If you paid €900 for a windows laptop it would be amassing too. Most people spend around €500.

Trojan

Even if you spent €10,000 on a Windows laptop, it still wouldn't match the Mac's build quality, because none of the manufacturers put the same fanatical attention to detail at the design and build stage.

Sony and Lenova approach it, and Asus are having a pop at it with the new MBA clones they're building - but look up reviews and read what they say about build quality.

Cuddlesworth

Trojan wrote: »

Even if you spent €10,000 on a Windows laptop, it still wouldn't match the Mac's build quality, because none of the manufacturers put the same fanatical attention to detail at the design and build stage.

Sony and Lenova approach it, and Asus are having a pop at it with the new MBA clones they're building - but look up reviews and read what they say about build quality.

Sorry but in my line of work I get to see and use a variety of different laptops and when your willing to spend the money you get the same if not better quality of build in comparison to Apple models. The only issue at the moment is that apple are squeezing the aluminium chassis makers for most of their supply.

Duke Leonal Felmet

Trojan wrote: »

Even if you spent €10,000 on a Windows laptop, it still wouldn't match the Mac's build quality, because none of the manufacturers put the same fanatical attention to detail at the design and build stage.

Sony and Lenova approach it, and Asus are having a pop at it with the new MBA clones they're building - but look up reviews and read what they say about build quality.

'A 1,000,000 times better'

'Even if you spent €10,000'


So hard to take this stuff seriously...

ScumLord

To be fair Apple does have exceptional build quality that just isn't really considered on widows based PCs. People buying PCs know full well that buying a laptop that will last decades is as pointless as buying a reusable condom. It may technically work for years and years but after 6 it's going to be so redundant it might as well be in pieces in the bin.

I applaud Apples manufacturing standards but it's about all I'd give them and I wouldn't buy based on that, lovely and all as they are it's complete overkill.

Sad Professor

TheGroove wrote: »

Is a macbook pro worth the 1200 euro?? What does it do that makes it so much better? Plus that doesn't even include the price of all the software?
Thoughts and opinions please?

Yes, completely worth it IMO. I've used Macs for about 15 years, and unless Apple does something to seriously piss me off, I can't see myself ever switching. For me the operating system and it's integration with the hardware is the main appeal. I don't have anything against PC hardware, which, as others have said, is usually cheaper and better specced. But I can't stand Windows and I've no interest in Linux. Also, I just like Apple's attention to detail and the design of their machines. I don't mind paying extra because I believe I'm getting a superior computer that will last several years and will still be worth something when I go to sell it.

But I'd strongly recommend ignoring what everyone here (myself included) has to say and instead trying a Mac in-store and deciding for yourself. I have several friends who have switched to Mac over the years just based on their experience of seeing and using mine.

Trojan

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

'A 1,000,000 times better'

'Even if you spent €10,000'


So hard to take this stuff seriously...

I think you missed the point of my post completely if that's the case. Also, there's more than a slight difference between a factor of 5 and a factor of 1,000,000.

stimpson

I've worked in a dual platform environment for the best part of 20 years. I currently use an i7 iMac in work with VMWare/Bootcamp to run Win 7.

At home I have 2 machines. A 5 year old Mac mini in use as a media server and a 3 year old Unibody MacBook. Both machines are running OSX Lion and have been upgraded with RAM and Hard drives. I'm expecting many more years of service from both and wouldn't swap either for a More powerful PC.

My mother in law swapped her PC for an iMac a few years back. I no longer get tech support calls.

Duke Leonal Felmet

Trojan wrote: »

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

'A 1,000,000 times better'

'Even if you spent €10,000'


So hard to take this stuff seriously...

I think you missed the point of my post completely if that's the case. Also, there's more than a slight difference between a factor of 5 and a factor of 1,000,000.

So a €2,000 mac is better than a €10,000 pc?

Hmm... I'm gonna take a punt and say that you're overstating things a smidge. Just like the 'million' guy.

Back to my earlier point, which perhaps you can help me out with. Why are mac fanz so eager to point out how macs are superior to pcs? As you can see from my posts, all I'm saying is that it depends what you need a computer for. But mac fanz are of the order of you or the 'million' guy, i.e. no pc can ever be better than a mac.

Sorry, it just seems a little immature to me. Perhaps you could change my mind.

Khannie

Apple do produce savage hardware. Anyone who's ever taken apart anything ever made by them (and I have, twice) will know what I mean. I'm not an apple fanboy by any means. Had an iPhone and sold it to replace it with an android. Have never owned any other apple kit and have no plans to. It's all sturdy, well put together and very attractive stuff though IMO. People pay a premium for that. I'm not one of them, but I understand why they do.

Trojan

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

So a €2,000 mac is better than a €10,000 pc?

I can't help you if you choose not to actually read what I said, which was:

Trojan wrote:

Even if you spent €10,000 on a Windows laptop, it still wouldn't match the Mac's build quality

Build quality. No more, no less.

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

But mac fanz are of the order of you or the 'million' guy, i.e. no pc can ever be better than a mac.

Sorry, it just seems a little immature to me. Perhaps you could change my mind.

I'm far from being a mac fanz. I think they're very expensive to buy and maintain, and I don't like their OS. But the point remains that they are way ahead of any other manufacturer in terms of build quality.

seanleavy

Bought a MacBook refurbished for 700 2 years ago. In hindsight I would get a windows laptop. Windows 7 runs better on the macbook than snow leopard or lion.

Both operating systems work well and can do the same tasks. The only difference is you can get hardware cheaper with windows laptops.

Voodu Child

A Mac is a bit like a fancy fridge or oven. Someone has spent ages picking the radius of the edges or the shape of the buttons. Looks lovely. At the end of the day it does the same as a regular fridge, keeps things cold. Only costs 2x as much.

Spending ages on the aesthetic of something doesnt make it better, in fact many Apple products have piss-poor quality. Aesthetic quality =/= functional quality.

Hinges that break, power connectors that fray and expose bare wire, antenna design that just plain sucks. Their laptops are plagued with thermal problems. The magic mouse looked great but gave people wrist pains. Another mouse pinches your fingers when you click if you hold it the 'wrong' way.

Their earbuds are nice and symmetric looking but guess what - the human ear isn't symmetric and they are notoriously crap and uncomfortable.

Phones that are just asking to shatter at the slightest drop.

Too many ports on a laptop look 'ugly' according to Jonathon Ives or whoever the hell styles them, so even their €1800 Macbook Pros lack the kind of functionality a €500 Dell has.

The hardware is just off-the-shelf stuff, it is subject to the same problems as any other brand. 6-bit screens, yellow screens, overheating Nvidia's, faulty exploding/expanding batteries, dodgy ram slots... Their products are built by various Taiwanese ODMs, the very same ones who build Dell, Samsung, Acer etc.

As for the 'it just works' mantra that the fanboys like to repeat, just check the Apple section of this very site. Page upon page of problems...how do you do this or I can't install that. Actually look at it before replying. Or check the iPhone section, same thing, reception problems, battery problems, all because they put form above funciton.

The idea that OSX is easier to use and users never get confused about how to do something is a complete myth. Windows 7 is just as user friendly if not more so. When I went to college the computer rooms were split 50/50 between Macs and Windows and the Mac rooms were always empty because every machine had crashed. You could hear the chorus of 'uh oh' in the background :pac:

ScumLord

We've not made it any easier have we? :pac:

The important thing is to pick a side and stick to it no matter what! I've already killed 400 Mac users in this horrible war and we'll expect the same from you. If you can't keep up that kind of kill rate then please choose a Mac.

Duke Leonal Felmet

Khannie wrote: »

Apple do produce savage hardware. Anyone who's ever taken apart anything ever made by them (and I have, twice) will know what I mean. I'm not an apple fanboy by any means. Had an iPhone and sold it to replace it with an android. Have never owned any other apple kit and have no plans to. It's all sturdy, well put together and very attractive stuff though IMO. People pay a premium for that. I'm not one of them, but I understand why they do.

I used to work in Apple in Cork, on a production line. God knows how many of those feckin things I builts. The vast,r vast majority of the gear is built in China (Cork just puts the last few bits together so they can avail of low taxes), the same place where their rivals get their stuff. In fact, I don't recall ever seeing a 'Manufactured in California' label. So the idea that their gear is somehow special is bollocks. And believe me, the people doing the final assembly in Cork ain't exactly rocket scientists...

Eamonn Brophy

No. Mac are a designer PC brand. the same way designer clothes dont do much extra, macs don't. Be aware lots of the cost is the "premium" of having a mac, pretty and expensive packaging and to fatten their marketing budget whilst maximizing their profit margins.

A few years ago Mac switched to using intel architecture which basically turned them into shiny expensive pc's running osx. (You can run osx on any intel based machine pretty much now.)

There are many, just as fancy made and designed alternate windows machines that you will find are more powerful and functional and cost less.

Many argue they're superior for media editing which I've never fully bought into, anything you can do there you can do on a windows machine just as well.

I'm not a linux, windows or mac fanboy, in fact I think they all have massive glaring flaws, But the premium you pay for buying into the apple cult is beyond ridiulous. Don't buy into the hype.

Eamonn Brophy

Trojan wrote: »

I can't help you if you choose not to actually read what I said, which was:



Build quality. No more, no less.



I'm far from being a mac fanz. I think they're very expensive to buy and maintain, and I don't like their OS. But the point remains that they are way ahead of any other manufacturer in terms of build quality.

No they're not, you just assume so because you're uneducated in what other laptop manufacturers have available.

This:
http://www.acer.co.uk/ac/en/GB/content/photogallery/aspiresseries

This:
http://reviews.cnet.com/laptops/lenovo-ideapad-u300s/4505-3121_7-35041988.html

And they took me 3 minutes to find. There are plenty of just as beautiful and expensive designer laptops that look as good or better than macs.

teddansonswig

buy the hype, it exists for a reason, hardware tec shi* aside there beautiful machines. given up on windows long ago, and linux more recently. finaly went back to a mac air @ 900E, worth its weight (nothing) in x10 gold

challengemaster

The way this arguement works is :

Anyone that's used a Mac at one point or another will vouch for how good they are

Anyone that hasn't, automatically thinks it's an expensive POS, especially people who've built their own gaming PC's

How do I know? I've been on both sides.

I've a Macbook for day to day use, and gaming spec PC for anything major (photo/video editing, gaming) but honestly, the macbook is worth every penny. I couldn't imagine going back to a windows laptop. Before I got it, I didn't see the point either.

The only way you'll find out if it's "worth it" is to use one. Go to a store (pc world, etc) that stock them and play around with it for a while. See how it feels, have a chance to get used to it. If you like it, great, if not, then you know.

yawha

challengemaster wrote: »

The way this arguement works is :

Anyone that's used a Mac at one point or another will vouch for how good they are

Anyone that hasn't, automatically thinks it's an expensive POS, especially people who've built their own gaming PC's

How do I know? I've been on both sides.

Ah come on, that's as biased and silly as any other reply here.

There are all sorts of people with different opinions on the Mac vs. PC debate for various reasons, many of whom have formed them as a result of poor reasoning.

I mean, on the other side, there are the people who switched to Mac after using XP or Vista, and haven't experienced Win 7, or who decided to splash out a lot of money on a Mac after using middle of the road Windows laptops.

It's a stupid skub war anyhow.

Odaise Gaelach

I've had my second-hand 2006-era iMac for about eight months now. The build quality is really nice, on the hardware side. I'd never appreciated before how much better a computer can seem with a good screen!

Spec-wise, it's capable and can run Windows 7 smoothly enough, though it is pretty underpowered for more demanding tasks. There are a few things that really irritate me: the 2006-era keyboard layout has some keys in different places - it always takes me a few seconds to find the \ key on this thing. It also has some quite obscure keys like § but it doesn't have a hash/sharp key, which is a real pain especially as my occupation is as a C Sharp developer!

I think that OS X would probably be the most compelling reason to get a Mac, and I'd much prefer Windows 7. OS X takes up a 40GB partition on my hard drive and removing it might make Boot Camp stop working, which is a pain because I'd like the extra space.

So while I don't really mind my iMac, my next computer is going to be a custom-built rig. Provided I'm still employed as a C (****-this-****ing-keyboard) Sharp developer by the end of January. And I'm looking forward to it.

stimpson

Odaise Gaelach wrote: »

but it doesn't have a hash/sharp key, which is a real pain especially as my occupation is as a C Sharp developer!

Alt-3 is hash.

You know you can plug in any USB keyboard and use it too?

The Black Oil

No question they're expensive, but I prefer the OS and didn't want to use Vista at the time I changed. I've had people start to spout about the cost of Macs to me before, half of them then usually proceed to pull an iPhone from their pocket.

PogMoThoin

What I've seen from my experience, many times. People buy a budget, cheap as chips 300 quid Celeron, minimum ram laptop/desktop that struggles with Windows. Then after 2 years of terrible experience they swear it won't happen again and fork out 1200 on a Mac and are blown away.

Odaise Gaelach

stimpson wrote: »

Alt-3 is hash.

You know you can plug in any USB keyboard and use it too?

It isn't on this one.

Plus this is the only USB keyboard I have. I'm not too pushed about getting one just for that one symbol, especially since I'm building a whole new system next year.

stimpson

Odaise Gaelach wrote: »

It isn't on this one.

Plus this is the only USB keyboard I have. I'm not too pushed about getting one just for that one symbol, especially since I'm building a whole new system next year.

Should be - make sure you're using the alt key not the CMD key. If you run Keyboard Viewer it will show you what the keys change to when you hold down the modifiers.

Cuddlesworth

I've used both high spec windows machines and apples and I can't justify the 30% mark up on the Apple side. It doesn't make sense to me.

CamperMan

Windows sucks... just a pile of doggy poop, I either use Mac or Linux

tonsiltickler

For me its a case of what software I can use. Os x will never have software like solidworks or unigraphics running on it. I know the interface is better and its prettier but really, an average laptop can run a far more extensive range of software.

It used to be the case that mac's were the machine of choice for photo and video editing. That's not even true anymore. And also btw, aluminium casings =/= build quality. A pretty high rate of hd failures and some poor customer care
(dodgy chargers catching fire and apple not telling customers which models are affected unless they buy applecare), means I'll never ever buy one.

CamperMan

tonsiltickler wrote: »

For me its a case of what software I can use. Os x will never have software like solidworks or unigraphics running on it. I know the interface is better and its prettier but really, an average laptop can run a far more extensive range of software.

It used to be the case that mac's were the machine of choice for photo and video editing. That's not even true anymore. And also btw, aluminium casings =/= build quality. A pretty high rate of hd failures and some poor customer care
(dodgy chargers catching fire and apple not telling customers which models are affected unless they buy applecare), means I'll never ever buy one.

my iMac has had 2 HD failures and a DVD failure. (had it for 3 years)

this is minor compared to the failures I had with PCs , I had many many more failures with PC's by Dell, Compaq etc

jonon9

Was in the same boat when I decided to build a hackintosh instead for the same price of a iMac 27 inch I built a beast of a machine for the price of the iMac well worth looking into

cherryghost

I fail to see why anyone would buy a Macbook Pro. The motherboards are contracted out to Asus. The RAM is generic and several other modules are compatible with the motherboard. Nvidia/ATI are contracted out to do the GPU's. Intel do the processors. The only thing that's differential to a Windows laptop is the laptop body. And even at that...

Odaise Gaelach

stimpson wrote: »

Should be - make sure you're using the alt key not the CMD key. If you run Keyboard Viewer it will show you what the keys change to when you hold down the modifiers.

...Well it isn't! Trust me, I've looked!

Keyboard Viewer isn't much use, as I use Windows (it's where I do my C Sharp work). But there's even no hash key on the On-Screen Keyboard - it has the § and ± key, but no hash sign.