Is how much we drink a taboo subject in this country?

tunguska

A friend of mine gave up drinking a while back. He had put on some weight and his diet wasn't so hot. So he made some changes which included knocking the booze on the head. The transformation was remarkable, he lost a lot of weight and in general felt better. He told me that giving up alcohol was a big part of the transformation. Anyway one night he'd been out with a few friends and was walking back through a popular part of town with his girlfriend when the came across a guy lying on the path completley inibriated. My friend passed a comment to his girlfriend, something along the lines of: "Look at what alcohol does to people"
His girlfriend's reaction? She started having a go at him, saying who the hell did he think he was judging people like that.
I was surprised by her reaction as I think my friends comments were fair enough. But it got me thinking about other incidents around alcohol comsumption and how people get defensive when how much they drink or the effects of excessive drinking are brought up.

It seems like how much people drink in this country is a taboo subject. So long as you drink like everybody else you're grand but just like my friend, as soon as you even question the whole mentality you get a strong adverse reaction.
What do you think, is alcohol consumption a touchy subject in this country? And if so, why?

MyKeyG

No I think people are just too judgemental for their own good and it's a little bit irritating. It's the accusation not the reaction I think is the problem. Before I gave up the booze I would get annoyed because it seemed like I couldn't go out and have a few pints without being a raging alcoholic, binge drinker etc. If one or two drinks does one person it doesn't mean it is enough for another.

I, like your friend, gave it up to lose weight but I would never judge anyone. I think people in this country need a tiny little dose of mind their own business!

tunguska

MyKeyG wrote: »

No I think people are just too judgemental for their own good and it's a little bit irritating. It's the accusation not the reaction I think is the problem. Before I gave up the booze I would get annoyed because it seemed like I couldn't go out and have a few pints without being a raging alcoholic, binge drinker etc. If one or two drinks does one person it doesn't mean it is enough for another.

I, like your friend, gave it up to lose weight but I would never judge anyone. I think people in this country need a tiny little dose of mind their own business!

But he wasnt being judgemental, he was calling a spade a spade. The guy lying on the ground was in a heap, and my friend just passed a comment on what he saw. Going out for a few pints is one thing, lying on the side of the road inibriated is another. Personally I think people are too touchy about their drinking habits, they dont like what they do to be brought out into the spotlight and questioned. We can bury our heads in the sand and pretend theres no problem but theres a massive cultural problem in this country with drink. Again, thats not judgement thats a fact.

CDfm

Well , its mean to judge, but hey sometimes there is nothing wrong with being smug.

A friend of mine's missus told friends it was bedroom performance related.

MyKeyG

tunguska wrote: »

But he wasnt being judgemental, he was calling a spade a spade. The guy lying on the ground was in a heap, and my friend just passed a comment on what he saw. Going out for a few pints is one thing, lying on the side of the road inibriated is another.

No he was not calling a spade a spade. Let's get one thing straight right off the bat. Alcohol does not do that to people, people do it to themselves! There's a difference.

Personally I think people are too touchy about their drinking habits, they dont like what they do to be brought out into the spotlight and questioned.

People are entitled to get touchy about anybody sticking their nose into their business whether it be what they drink, eat or think! You're entitled to your view on alcohol just as much as someone who goes out to drink ten pints feels it's what they deserve after a hard weeks work.

We can bury our heads in the sand and pretend theres no problem but theres a massive cultural problem in this country with drink. Again, thats not judgement thats a fact.

I didn't say there wasn't but you used an extreme example that doesn't reflect the general drinking culture. For the most part people may drink to excess out or at home but not everyone falls asleep in the gutter or ends up in hospital.

Ultimately my point is that so long is it doesn't hurt anyone else nobody has the right to judge another persons habits regarding anything including how much alcohol they consume. And I really wish people would stop singling Ireland out. You should go for a drink in London, Cardiff or Edinburgh.

Crystalset

"Look at what alcohol does to people"
Tunguska was being critical of the effects of over indulgence. Seems to me to be fair comment.
If someone ends up on the pavement semicomatose I suspect they have had more than a few(3?) pints.

It was the pig fair last September
The day I well remember
I was walking up and down in drunken pride
When my knees began to flutter
And I sank down in the gutter
And a pig came up and lay down by my side
As I lay there in the gutter
Thinking thoughts I could not utter
I thought I heard a passing lady say
You can tell the man who boozes
By the company that he chooses
And the pig got up and slowly walked away

Satanta

MyKeyG wrote: »

No he was not calling a spade a spade. Let's get one thing straight right off the bat. Alcohol does not do that to people, people do it to themselves!

The booze was the main reason the guy was laying in the street. He wouldn't lay down there had he not been drunk. I think it is definitely a case of calling a spade a spade.

MyKeyG wrote: »

There's a difference.People are entitled to get touchy about anybody sticking their nose into their business whether it be what they drink, eat or think!

He wasnt sticking his nose in anybody's business. That would mean that he tried to get involved in yer man's drinking. He only made a comment. Expressed his opinion. Something he is completely entitled to do.

MyKeyG wrote: »

For the most part people may drink to excess out or at home but not everyone falls asleep in the gutter or ends up in hospital.

Agreed... some do though.

MyKeyG wrote: »

Ultimately my point is that so long is it doesn't hurt anyone else nobody has the right to judge another persons habits regarding anything including how much alcohol they consume. And I really wish people would stop singling Ireland out. You should go for a drink in London, Cardiff or Edinburgh.

Everybody has a right to have their own opinion. In my opinion the guy's over indulgence led him to sleep in the street. That's not judging him. Or is it sticking my nose in his business.


To answer the question in the OP. Yes... it looks like it is taboo.

Amtmann

MyKeyG wrote: »

Ultimately my point is that so long is it doesn't hurt anyone else nobody has the right to judge another persons habits regarding anything including how much alcohol they consume.

Of course people have the right to judge. It's nonsense to say otherwise. We make judgments about many things all the time. There's a difference, though, between making a judgment (something that all thinking people do) on the one hand, and scolding someone on the other.

The former is cognitively unavoidable; the latter may be considered rude, depending on the context.

CDfm

Satanta wrote: »

He wasnt sticking his nose in anybody's business. That would mean that he tried to get involved in yer man's drinking. He only made a comment. Expressed his opinion. Something he is completely entitled to do.

Maybe the girlfriend sees things differently in a way that he was a mess and that he was not in a position to comment on others.If that is the case , fair point in a you can't talk way.

If the guy on the street had passed out and had a substance abuse problem maybe he did not have a choice or might be mentally ill to boot.

To answer the question in the OP. Yes... it looks like it is taboo.

Say to anyone, I think you have had enough to drink and that is like saying you are pissed. Its like giving them a cup of cold sick.

The context is important too.

A friend of mine who owns a pub says many women look after their kids after 4 glasses of wine -a bottle .It would be illegal to drive after that.

Would you comment if someone had a pint and drove home - illegal but hey - I might not.

What about someone driving home the next morning ?

Commenting on anyone's drinking is making a value judgement or moral judgement or otherwise about them.

horsemeat

There is a major taboo attached to alcohol consumption.

It's legal so people lash into it, but on some conscious level they know it's bad for them, hence why they get so tetchy about it. It's ridiculous tbh. A ''great night'' for the majority of people in this country involves getting so drunk that you don't remember anything you said or did.

You know what's funny, in other countries achievements in ones life are measured in terms of life success - eg 'I ran a marathon/got promoted/learnt a new language/lost 14 lbs etc etc etc''. In Ireland, people measure achievements in terms of how much they drink - ''I drank a litre of vodka last night'', ''Oh did you fair play Tommy you're some man, you were great craic, you could barely stand or talk and were slurring your words all night, it was gas when you lay on the ground picking bits of kebab meat out from the gutter, what a hero you are - sure will we go for another litre each again tonight, you've done it once now you need to maintain this high standard of performace!''
That's meant to be some sort of achievement?No thanks. Give me a coca cola and a clear head on a Sunday morning every single time.

MyKeyG you need to look at your own relationship with alcohol. It's clear you've got some issues that are unresolved.

It's not clear that he has an issue. Don't state that he has. Warned for trolling on the theme of the thread. - Mod

MyKeyG

Tremelo wrote: »

Of course people have the right to judge. It's nonsense to say otherwise. We make judgments about many things all the time. There's a difference, though, between making a judgment (something that all thinking people do) on the one hand, and scolding someone on the other.

The former is cognitively unavoidable; the latter may be considered rude, depending on the context.

Ah my point is nonsense. How very mature of you. In any case judging and feeling one has the right to judge are two different things. I would imagine an individual posting an event they witnessed involving an inebriated man in the gutter in the context of alcohol being an issue is very much a scold.

How would you feel for example if somebody made mention of the way you were raising your child or going about a job a certain way? Yes judgement is a reflex action but to give body to that judgement by means of expression is where the line is crossed in my nonsense opinion.

Amtmann

MyKeyG wrote: »

Ah my point is nonsense. How very mature of you.

Again: Making judgments is a cognitive norm. You make judgments every day. In fact you just did about my maturity

In any case judging and feeling one has the right to judge are two different things.

Judging isn't a right. Rather, it is simply unavoidable. You cannot have a functioning brain and fail to make involuntary judgments. People who say otherwise are kidding themselves.

I would imagine an individual posting an event they witnessed involving an inebriated man in the gutter in the context of alcohol being an issue is very much a scold.

Um, no. Scolding would have been if you went up to the drunk man and castigated him on the spot. Posting about an event you witnessed is sharing an experience.

How would you feel for example if somebody made mention of the way you were raising your child or going about a job a certain way? Yes judgement is a reflex action but to give body to that judgement by means of expression is where the line is crossed in my nonsense opinion.

I probably wouldn't be best pleased. That still doesn't mean that others can't voice their views. I agree that it can often be rude to *voice* your judgment to the judgee; but that usually doesn't happen. Commenting negatively to third parties about someone who was drunk enough to be paralytic on the street is making a judgment that said person drank too much. I agree with that judgment.
I see no problem with the conclusion that I've reached. If you do, well, that's your prerogative, but I personally would say that in that case, you're showing poor judgment.

MyKeyG

MyKeyG you need to look at your own relationship with alcohol. It's clear you've got some issues that are unresolved.

THANK YOU, thank you so much for proving my point. That's all people like you really care about isn't it? Trying to find an alcoholic in every nook and cranny because god knows we don't want to lose our status as a country of hard drinkers do we?

Personally I resent not being allowed to have an opinion on alcohol without being accused of having a problem, it's a desperate attack in the absence of worthwhile commentary. If you had read my previous post you would see that I quit drinking for weight loss purposes.

My issue is with the extremes people go to in order to tar all drinkers with the same brush. It's like they need problems in order to have something to judge. Yes there's a problem with drinking but did it ever occur to you people that the reason individuals sometimes get tetchy is because they feel they're being roped in with alcoholics and wino's ad infinitum? There's a problem in this country and it's one of overkill in analysing what exactly constitutes a 'problem' all because of a few rotten apples.

horsemeat

MyKeyG wrote: »

THANK YOU, thank you so much for proving my point. That's all people like you really care about isn't it? Trying to find an alcoholic in every nook and cranny because god knows we don't want to lose our status as a country of hard drinkers do we?

Personally I resent not being allowed to have an opinion on alcohol without being accused of having a problem, it's a desperate attack in the absence of worthwhile commentary. If you had read my previous post you would see that I quit drinking for weight loss purposes.

My issue is with the extremes people go to in order to tar all drinkers with the same brush. It's like they need problems in order to have something to judge. Yes there's a problem with drinking but did it ever occur to you people that the reason individuals sometimes get tetchy is because they feel they're being roped in with alcoholics and wino's ad infinitum? There's a problem in this country and it's one of overkill in analysing what exactly constitutes a 'problem' all because of a few rotten apples.

I read that you gave up for weight loss purposes. Which means that you never actually thought alcohol was bad for you. You're mindset is essentially no different than people who do go out and drink twelve pints friday and saturday, only reason you don't drink is cause you value your slim waist more than your alcoholic drinks.

most people on this forum gave up because we realised how poisonous and toxic alcohol is for one.

MyKeyG

Tremelo wrote: »

Again: Making judgments is a cognitive norm. You make judgments every day. In fact you just did about my maturity

I don't intend fencing with you. I made a rebuke concerning a comment you passed on my opinion. You called it nonsense. It is not mature behaviour. Make of that what you will.

Judging isn't a right. Rather, it is simply unavoidable. You cannot have a functioning brain and fail to make involuntary judgments. People who say otherwise are kidding themselves.

Had you read my post correctly you would see that I agree. It's giving expression to the judgement that I claimed is the issue. You're walking down the street you see some one stumbling due to alcohol. 'The state of him' is a perfectly natural response. Dissecting his character and assuming what he is to others is crossing the line.

Um, no. Scolding would have been if you went up to the drunk man and castigated him on the spot. Posting about an event you witnessed is sharing an experience.

Granted but the context in which the OP posted the original comment was judgemental of the mans character. His friend said 'that's what alcohol does to peoples lives'. For all the OP and his friend knows that man could be sober all week while doing charity work for Ukrainian orphans!

I probably wouldn't be best pleased. That still doesn't mean that others can't voice their views. I agree that it can often be rude to *voice* your judgment to the judgee; but that usually doesn't happen. Commenting negatively to third parties about someone who was drunk enough to be paralytic on the street is making a judgment that said person drank too much. I agree with that judgment.
I see no problem with the conclusion that I've reached. If you do, well, that's your prerogative, but I personally would say that in that case, you're showing poor judgment.

Another judgement?:) I have no issue with the conclusion you have reached and just because I refuted your post it by no means infers I have a problem with judgement. I came onto this thread to defend against peoples character being generalised. To have a judgement spring to mind at any given time is one thing. To generalise a persons character or personal life based on an event as has happened to me on this very thread is another.

DublinWriter

I think it used to be a taboo subject, the phrase "he's fond of the sup" could be used to describe the most insane and craven of alcoholics up until about twenty years ago.

MyKeyG

horsemeat wrote: »

I read that you gave up for weight loss purposes. Which means that you never actually thought alcohol was bad for you. You're mindset is essentially no different than people who do go out and drink twelve pints friday and saturday, only reason you don't drink is cause you value your slim waist more than your alcoholic drinks.

most people on this forum gave up because we realised how poisonous and toxic alcohol is for one.

How are you even able to fit inside your own skin? Drawing such profound conclusions on a persons character based on a forum post is presumption of the highest order. Of course I know alcohol is bad for you. It's bad for your liver, heart and brain! As is smoking, eating fast food every day and a host of other things. I'm not simple but I cherish the fact that I'm decidedly more open minded than you and accept that people will indulge in life's vices to excess from time to time. Not only that but if that's how someone wants to unwind then that's their prerogative.

Not everyone who enjoys their Saturday night foray into overindulgence is an alcoholic.

CDfm

MyKeyG wrote: »

Personally I resent not being allowed to have an opinion on alcohol without being accused of having a problem, it's a desperate attack in the absence of worthwhile commentary. If you had read my previous post you would see that I quit drinking for weight loss purposes.
.

And its a fecker on the cholesterol, not wishing to stigmatize people with high cholesterol

ArphaRima

My friend passed a comment to his girlfriend

"Look at what alcohol does to people"

That is a phrase laced with condescension. I would take offence at that being said to any friend of mine regardless of their state.

I don't post in this forum as I am a heavy saturday night drinker. I love socialising etc. and I see it as integral to Irish culture even though I no longer live in Ireland.
Everyone knows the arguments for and against drinking/smoking, but make their own choices.
Looking down on people is not a good trait. Verbalising it is even worse. It's just rude. I dont see the subject as taboo, but rather I do think that saying it to people on the street is.

CDfm

DublinWriter wrote: »

I think it used to be a taboo subject, the phrase "he's fond of the sup" could be used to describe the most insane and craven of alcoholics up until about twenty years ago.

There must be a lot of phrases to describe women and men in various states of inebriation. .

I mean if the Inuit have words for different types of snow and the Jamaicans lots of words for banana's surely the Irish have lots of phrases to describe alcohol related behavior and people ?

Crystalset

Looking down on people is not a good trait. Verbalising it is even worse and I see it as integral to Irish culture even though I no longer live in Ireland.

MyKeyG

CDfm wrote: »

And its a fecker on the cholesterol, not wishing to stigmatize people with high cholesterol

True that. God I miss my jumbo breakfast roll and pint every morning:D

Sunnyisland

Crystalset wrote: »

Looking down on people is not a good trait. Verbalising it is even worse and I see it as integral to Irish culture even though I no longer live in Ireland.

In all fairness the OPs friend was talking to his girlfriend and If you cant say it to your other half who can you say it to I am sure were all guilty of passing some sort of remarks or opinions about things that dont concern us.

Amtmann

When the OP's friend saw a person paralytic on the street and said "look at what alcohol does to people", it's very possible that he was saying "look: alcohol has made that person so paralytic that he's on the street, in a degraded, pitiable state."
There's absolutely no reason to think that the OP's friend was making a judgement about the drunk person's entire life, rather than the drunk person's state at that moment.

It is actually anti-social to be drunk in public, and in that way the drunk person, while possibly oblivious to everything going on around himself, was making the public space unpleasant. Of course some people are going to disapprove of people sprawled on a footpath. It's not exactly an admirable way to be, is it? It would be very odd indeed if everyone just ignored it and said nothing.

As to whether it's taboo to discuss how much people drink in the country in general, as a non-drinker I will talk about it freely among friends if it comes up in conversation, but not among people I don't know. Throughout history, many humans have sought an outlet through intoxicating substances, so in that sense the phenomenon is not unprecedented.
I just don't "get it" myself, but I think it is a public order issue. People walking on public streets should not be in a stupor, or drunkenly violent or intimidating. It makes the public space seedy and sinister, and I think that that aspect needs to be stamped out. Packs of drunken people stomping loudly on the street should not be seen as acceptable or "normal".

MyKeyG

Tremelo wrote: »

People walking on public streets should not be in a stupor, or drunkenly violent or intimidating. It makes the public space seedy and sinister, and I think that that aspect needs to be stamped out. Packs of drunken people stomping loudly on the street should not be seen as acceptable or "normal".

Yes but I think the argument is peoples view on over indulgence in alcohol in general and not that there necessarily need be a crime or public order offence attached.

Amtmann

MyKeyG wrote: »

Yes but I think the argument is peoples view on over indulgence in alcohol in general and not that there necessarily need by a crime or public order offence attached.

Fair point. I suppose I see the two as linked. For me, I only ever see the over indulgence when it does spill out onto the street, which it does every Saturday night.

ArphaRima

Looking down on people is not a good trait. Verbalising it is even worse and I see it as integral to Irish culture even though I no longer live in Ireland.

Ah right. I'm a self hating Irishman abroad.

Self-righteous, condescending w@nkers are what get to me actually. Not exclusive to Ireland.

CDfm

Tremelo wrote: »

Fair point. I suppose I see the two as linked. For me, I only ever see the over indulgence when it does spill out onto the street, which it does every Saturday night.

That can happen can't it.

There is a pub near me where a lot of nutters drink and if there ever was a case for an exemption to the no-smoking rules that's it.

They spill out onto the street.

Now you do get nutters at football matches , protest marches and general random nutters too with no booze involved.

fluffer wrote: »

Ah right. I'm a self hating Irishman abroad.

Self-righteous, condescending w@nkers are what get to me actually. Not exclusive to Ireland.

OK, but the OP is about a guy who had a big lifestyle change and could be forgiven for his comments on being confronted with someone with a serious problem.

Maybe his response was inappropriate but not if he is processing the thoughts the he himself had over indulged.

Anyone can see that the person who had passed out on the street has a serious problem and wasn't able to cope on the night.

The Taboo part of it is that we get confronted by that and the problem behavior.

People get sensitive about that.

tunguska

MyKeyG wrote: »

but you used an extreme example that doesn't reflect the general drinking culture. For the most part people may drink to excess out or at home but not everyone falls asleep in the gutter or ends up in hospital.

Have you been to the A&E department on a saturday night lately? I dont have the stats on me right now but theres a lot of people in there for alcohol related issues. I've seen it with my own eyes. People drunk coming in and abusing the medical staff. The example I used wasn't extreme, I wish it was. I see that everytime Im in town on a saturday night.

MyKeyG wrote: »

Had you read my post correctly you would see that I agree. It's giving expression to the judgement that I claimed is the issue. You're walking down the street you see some one stumbling due to alcohol. 'The state of him' is a perfectly natural response. Dissecting his character and assuming what he is to others is crossing the line.

Another judgement? I have no issue with the conclusion you have reached and just because I refuted your post it by no means infers I have a problem with judgement. I came onto this thread to defend against peoples character being generalised. To have a judgement spring to mind at any given time is one thing. To generalise a persons character or personal life based on an event as has happened to me on this very thread is another.

You are jumping to massive conclusions there. You've taken that ball and ran with it in a direction all of your own making.
Let me be clear. My friend passed a comment on a guy lying on the pavement, so drunk he couldnt stand up, he was unconscious. My friend saw the guy in this state and said, look at what alcohol does to people. As in, this guy was in a state, look at what alcohol has done to him. He didnt say, this guy is a disgrace, his life is pityful, he's a subhuman, he's a bad person, he's inadequate etc. My friend was passing no judgement on the quality of person this guy was or the quality of people who do drink to excess, he was lamenting the damage that damage that excessive alcohol consumption does to people. End of story.
Your reaction has made my point. You got very defensive when the subject of peoples drinking was brought up. And it is all our business because the effects of alcohol abuse touch everybody. From physical violence, property damage, abuse - physical and sexual, massive medical bills that are footed by the tax payer.

fluffer wrote: »

I don't post in this forum as I am a heavy saturday night drinker. I love socialising etc. and I see it as integral to Irish culture even though I no longer live in Ireland.

I dont understand what you're point is here? Are you saying that socialising = alcohol consumption? You do know that you can socialise without drink being involved right?

fluffer wrote: »

Looking down on people is not a good trait. Verbalising it is even worse. It's just rude. I dont see the subject as taboo, but rather I do think that saying it to people on the street is.

Did you even read the post? My friend made the comment to his girlfriend, not to the guy lying on the pavement. He was so wasted he wouldnt have heard anyway!!!! You've made my point with your comments. It does seem like this cant be discussed without people getting defensive and claiming they're being judged. Just for the sake of argument just assume you, as a person, isnt being judged.

CDfm wrote: »

Anyone can see that the person who had passed out on the street has a serious problem and wasn't able to cope on the night.

The Taboo part of it is that we get confronted by that and the problem behavior.

People get sensitive about that.

This is the whole point. People get so defensive when their drinking habits are brought up for discusion that a civilised debate isnt possible. It is a taboo and nothing will ever change until people realise that they themselves arent being judged, its the drinking behavior thats being questioned. And it should be questioned when theres so many detrimental effects on society. Its not a case of somebody queitly drinking themselves into oblivion at home and this not touching anybody else. Everybody is affected by alcohol abuse.

Sunnyisland

tunguska wrote: »

This is the whole point. People get so defensive when their drinking habits are brought up for discusion that a civilised debate isnt possible. It is a taboo and nothing will ever change until people realise that they themselves arent being judged, its the drinking behavior thats being questioned. And it should be questioned when theres so many detrimental effects on society. Its not a case of somebody queitly drinking themselves into oblivion at home and this not touching anybody else. Everybody is affected by alcohol abuse.

Agree with this.

ArphaRima

Is how much we drink a taboo subject in this country?

Define "we". Are you talking about as a nation or an individual?

they themselves arent being judged, its the drinking behavior thats being questioned

I'm sorry. That makes little sense. You are not judging people - you are questioning behavour. How else does one judge another but from their behaviour?

I think you are taking "your friend's"(!) newfound prejudice against alcohol in general into this. Your example does not show that drinking is a taboo subject. It may be, but your story does not show it.

What I do read is that "your friend" passed a flippant comment on the street.
Discuss it in private (in the pub over a pint..) and it is an open debate.

You do know that you can socialise without drink being involved right?

Guess what. Its part of our culture. Irish people prefer to do their socialising with alcohol. I know it's tough to opt out, but you do have to deal with that fact.

You say "your friend" is off the sauce. What is your situation with alcohol?