Mass Rail Closing in the Next Decade?

corktina · 29-11-2011 12:20pm

yeah all we have is the Luas, M1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9 port tunnel, terminal 2, Mk4 coaches, class 22xxx units and others,M50 widening, Red Cow free flow, .....:)

Losty Dublin · 29-11-2011 2:21pm

OurLadyofKnock wrote: »

In ireland we spent our money on Partnership and Motorways.

They have a world class rail trainsport system - we have wasters making six figure salaries playing Farmville in Government offices up and down the country holding out for the largest pensions in the history of the human race.

And this is the real key problem in all of it; those people working in the Department offices in Dublin who oversee and mandate our semi state companies and state boards to do what they do. When it comes to overall policy, the likes of CIE or the RSA can't override their paymasters or cabinet policy.

OurLadyofKnock · 29-11-2011 2:29pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

And this is the real key problem in all of it; those people working in the Department offices in Dublin who oversee and mandate our semi state companies and state boards to do what they do. When it comes to overall policy, the likes of CIE or the RSA can't override their paymasters or cabinet policy.

In years to come Charlie McCreevey and Bertie Ahern and their thugs in the Public Sector Unions will be seen for what the monsters they truly are. The country is destroyed on so many levels while these people call themselves "patriots".

You couldn't make it up.

steamengine · 29-11-2011 2:46pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

Seriously though can you ever see Irish rail having enough passengers on the western rail corridor or any other intercity route to justify spending money on track upgrades to facilitate tilting trains? The train budget is zero/empty/spent for about 40 years! The country is broke and Irish rail are soon to lose a huge chunk of their government subsidy so if anything they will be closing down lines and cutting back on services.

You mention the tilting trains which run parallel to the regional trains, here in Ireland we don't have enough passengers for regional trains so extra services is nothing more than folly and shameful waste much like the western rail corridor, and is typical of what people who are not in touch with the realities of the railways in Ireland like British train spotters think.

I don't disagree with most of what you say here but the UK experience showed that 125mph running was necessary to compete with the challenge that motorways set over there. Whether they are tilting or not doesn't really matter. Nothing to do with train spotting fantasies - just reality !!!

foggy_lad · 29-11-2011 4:05pm

steamengine wrote: »

I don't disagree with most of what you say here but the UK experience showed that 125mph running was necessary to compete with the challenge that motorways set over there. Whether they are tilting or not doesn't really matter. Nothing to do with train spotting fantasies - just reality !!!

I agree but it is not feasable here in Ireland to have a super fast 100mph or 125mph network, all Ireland will ever have are a few short stretches of fast track in between old rickety branch lines.

At least we now have fairly comfortable trains and commuter units that hopefully will see out the company/depression.

OurLadyofKnock · 29-11-2011 4:51pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

At least we now have fairly comfortable trains and commuter units that hopefully will see out the company/depression.

Spot on, make the most of what can be made to work and flourish to some degree. Services changes and staffing changes will be key to this. We can't have unions dictating how the timetable is written anymore.

The first step to this is a TOTAL SACKING OF ALL IRISH RAIL MANAGEMENT.

This would make the unions more agreeable to change. If they don't get the message and are still screaming "Larkin, Larkin!" while the kill-off the network. SACK THEM TOO and bring in rail staff from Eastern Europe. Shut down the network for months if need be - so it can be reborn.

AngryLips · 29-11-2011 5:13pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

I agree but it is not feasable here in Ireland to have a super fast 100mph or 125mph network, all Ireland will ever have are a few short stretches of fast track in between old rickety branch lines.

At least we now have fairly comfortable trains and commuter units that hopefully will see out the company/depression.

What about closing all but the main intercity lines and diverting the subvention from operating expenditure to capital expenditure to increase speeds on what's left behind?

foggy_lad · 29-11-2011 5:19pm

AngryLips wrote: »

What about closing all but the main intercity lines and diverting the subvention from operating expenditure to capital expenditure to increase speeds on what's left behind?

The intercity lines are the main drain on the company, they have to try in vain to keep these lines running at reasonable speeds on old allignments which are too far off track to be any incentive for potential passengers when they should be concentrating on things like bringing a rail spur into naas and into Celbridge so that these massive commuter centres are actually physically served by the railway and customers dont have to get up and drive to the station to catch a train to work!

AngryLips · 29-11-2011 5:24pm

There are plenty of "intercity lines" that I would not describe as intercity by any definition:

Dublin-Ballina
Dublin-Castlebar
Dublin-Sligo
Dublin-Tralee
Dublin-Wexford

steamengine · 29-11-2011 5:26pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

I agree but it is not feasable here in Ireland to have a super fast 100mph or 125mph network, all Ireland will ever have are a few short stretches of fast track in between old rickety branch lines.

At least we now have fairly comfortable trains and commuter units that hopefully will see out the company/depression.

What about Dublin - Cork though ? The last time I read their network statement 42 miles approx were 100 mph running. Surely that could be extended !!!

foggy_lad · 29-11-2011 5:34pm

steamengine wrote: »

What about Dublin - Cork though ? The last time I read their network statement 42 miles approx were 100 mph running. Surely that could be extended !!!

it is 42 miles but each day they extend one section to 100mph they restrict some other delipidated stretch for safety reasons or so they can do essential maintenance required to actually keep the line open! they seem to be doing nothing more than keeping it going and dont have the ability to actually fix up lines for the long term.

shamwari · 29-11-2011 11:45pm

OurLadyofKnock wrote: »

The first step to this is a TOTAL SACKING OF ALL IRISH RAIL MANAGEMENT.

This would make the unions more agreeable to change. If they don't get the message and are still screaming "Larkin, Larkin!" while the kill-off the network. SACK THEM TOO and bring in rail staff from Eastern Europe. Shut down the network for months if need be - so it can be reborn.

Any chance we can have some suggestions that are grounded in realism?

schemingbohemia · 30-11-2011 11:31am

shamwari wrote: »

Any chance we can have some suggestions that are grounded in realism?

Doubtful given the OPs track record.

OurLadyofKnock · 30-11-2011 11:45am

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Doubtful given the OPs track record.

Really, so I was wrong all along about the Western Rail Corridor?

Funny, I was down looking at the track today. No sign of a Railway Children Special yet.

I am the Tarquinaror. Just ask IRN.

Victor · 30-11-2011 3:25pm

OurLadyofKnock wrote: »

I am the Tarquinaror. Just ask IRN.

We don't want or need to know this. So please don't mention it.

dermo88 · 01-12-2011 1:16am

The crunch will take place using outside consultants such as McKinsey to tell them (The Dept of Finance and Transport), what we already know. The conspiracy theorist in my mind always believed that the Western Rail Corridor was built to fail, and would be used to block any future investment in rail.

Its a case of use what we have already, more effectively, and thats possible with some imagination.

However, the funding framework depends on Iarnrod Eireann coming in 'on time', so they massage the statistics. In a way....who can blame them. They are to an extent stuck between a rock and a hard place.

There is definitely congestion now on the Heuston-Portlaoise stretch. Personally, I would be in favour of using the 22K's on a lot more 'split and join' services such as having direct Dublin-Tralee/Limerick/Cork combined in a triple set which splits at Limerick Jctn and Mallow 3 times daily. The same could be done on Dublin-Waterford, which would split at Bagenalstown and then one half goes to Kilkenny and reverses, stops at Thomastown and Waterford, the other half non stop to Waterford.

This is about sweating assets to provide the optimal level of service, and this is what DMU's do best.

Mass closures will lead to some protests. Two routes will die anyway, and these are Limerick Jctn-Waterford, and as for Roscrea/Nenagh, forget it.

The rest have been invested and upgraded to keep them in good condition for the next 20 years at least, and the rolling stock, if I know the Koreans, should be adequate IF maintained. As for bitching about the Mark III's, the mistake was made at the time of their purchase, and that was the need to have the entire bunch modified to work in Push/Pull format, with a DBGV (Driving Brake Generator Van). But this is neither here nor there. They would still need modifications mid life to keep them going until 2030 (ish), and that would cost EUR600,000 per coach according to the information given by LostyDublin.

Given that the era of locomotive hauled trains is dying out on Irish type distances, I think it was a wise decision to go and buy the 22K's.

Iarnrod Eireann are not perfect, but they are not the devil incarnate either. I would like to ask the detractors at this point,...:

When in the history of the network was there a consistent brand for Intercity network wide, with standardised rolling stock? Because before you could get:

Cravens
Mark 2ds
Mark 2bs....second hand
Cu na Mara
Mark 3's...

So it was quite a varied product in terms of price and quality. It was horribly inconsistent. You had Mk 2d's stinking of urine and damp compared to a spick and span Mk 3. Even the Cravens were more 'stylish' inside than a Mk 2d, particularly when they were defaced with the skanger scum graffiti such as 'anto loves carla' scratched into the wood.....DISGUSTING.

And now....its standardised throughout and the improvement in quality in the past 10 years is a quantum leap. That cannot be denied, despite the all too obvious faults.

So is the glass half empty or half full? In my opinion....its two thirds full.....and filling the glass does not take much more work to be frank.

DWCommuter · 03-12-2011 11:24pm

shamwari wrote: »

Any chance we can have some suggestions that are grounded in realism?

I'll happily give a few and in order of preference. (I'm speaking in Railway terms only)

1. Abandon the CIE brand. It's associated with failure.
2. Abandon the work practices.
3. Recast the way the railway is run and return the unions to a position of simply protecting workers rights as opposed to creating a cartel of comfort and privilege that is counter productive to running an actual business and serving customers. (this is actually a throwback to a time when railway workers were abused. Times have changed and it will inevitably create a period of disruption, but will ultimately be worth it.)
4. Separate infrastructure from services by placing one in full state ownership and the other in either semi state and/or private sector.
5 Approach the above in a no nonsense fashion and take no prisoners.
6. Allow existing IE management to run things in accordance with changes above for a period of 2 years.

I have no problem with a subsidy being paid to provide and run infrastructure, but I have a huge problem with it all being lumped in together with services. Lets find out if the current management of IE are capable of running a business when the playing field has been cleared of debris.

My own opinion...I don't think they would be capable. Ultimately competition ups performance. We only have to look at how Aer Lingus upped its game when Ryanair came along and bucked its semi state protection. While the railway is a smaller market, a similar business model can be applied that may save it, from itself, Government and road competition.

DWCommuter · 03-12-2011 11:57pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

And this is the real key problem in all of it; those people working in the Department offices in Dublin who oversee and mandate our semi state companies and state boards to do what they do. When it comes to overall policy, the likes of CIE or the RSA can't override their paymasters or cabinet policy.

One of the biggest problems, I agree, but it does not and never has excused CIE of the decisions they have made. CIE and its staff may have become socially/economically dependent on how they are perceived and treated within political circles, but that just smacks of being obedient and outdated. In fact its now an accepted combination of Union and Government policy. Therein lies the problem. I have often suggested a complete and absolute change, but if it was forthcoming from a Government, would you or the staff accept the necessary changes that would inevitably have to come? Its one thing claiming that the paymaster calls the shots, but would CIE be willing to accept changes in union influence, work practices and the ultimate end service to customers? Politics can change. Policy can change. Can CIE change? CIE hasn't been challenged because Politicians are still afraid of their creation. The late Seamus Brennan tried it and the reaction from CIE staff was (IMO) ****ing pathetic.

CIE is a dinosaur and despite being a loss making and heavily subsidised Semi-State, it still strikes the fear of god in any Government. When that is finally addressed, it will be better for all. However no Government has the balls to do it and so it will potter along as inefficiently and socially protected from reality as it always has.

dermo88 · 04-12-2011 3:29am

DWCommuter

CIE is a dinosaur and despite being a loss making and heavily subsidised Semi-State, it still strikes the fear of god in any Government. When that is finally addressed, it will be better for all. However no Government has the balls to do it and so it will potter along as inefficiently and socially protected from reality as it always has.

Which is why a recession is the ideal time to do an Irish version of what Maggie Thatcher did to the miners. CIE is the ideal avenue to do emergency surgery with no anaesthetic on the semi state sector.

And a few ideas from the Jeremy Clarkson school of justice would not go astray,

mickydoomsux · 04-12-2011 4:16am

dermo88 wrote: »

DWCommuter
And a few ideas from the Jeremy Clarkson school of justice would not go astray,

Advocating violence against IE employees?

Stay classy, dermo.

dermo88 · 04-12-2011 5:45am

No....

Not violence. Merely extrajudicial methods of physical persuasion. If I advocated violence I would mention General Pinochet, General Sani Abacha, General Suharto. Upstanding people who knew exactly how to deal with communists.

-Chris- · 04-12-2011 11:55am

Enough of that line of conversation, thanks

AngryLips · 04-12-2011 9:32pm

DWCommuter wrote: »

4. Separate infrastructure from services by placing one in full state ownership and the other in either semi state and/or private sector.

Didn't this result in a number of rail crashes and an above-inflation increase in average rail fares when implemented in the UK?

DWCommuter · 04-12-2011 11:19pm

AngryLips wrote: »

Didn't this result in a number of rail crashes and an above-inflation increase in average rail fares when implemented in the UK?

The safety issue in the UK was created by placing the infrastructure in private ownership. (It has since been returned to state ownership.)The pursuit of profit lead to corner cutting on essential safety practices. I'm proposing, like many others have, that the rail infrastructure in Ireland, be retained in state ownership. Furthermore I'm also proposing that the services be operated by the private sector and or a semi state.(new practices if it is a semi state.)

The UK model is often touted in a negative fashion, when in fact it can provide Ireland with invaluable lessons. The UK didn't get it quite right, but that does not mean that its model should be ignored. Realistically we can't keep pumping hundreds of millions per annum into IE and we cannot accept line closures or service cut backs as an anecdote to a Government cut in subsidy. The railway must be recast so it can perform like a proper business and not as some sort of state dependent.

Once again I need to stress why it is all wrong. Luas was taken out of CIE hands because the state knew it would not have the same impact under the CIE banner and would be tied into every established cultural timebomb that manifested itself within the company. But there is a continued reluctance to finally face down the CIE cartel. It does not justify its high salaries. It does not justify its actual existence. Its a mess. A holding company and a few subs. A history of negativity behind it. A bad brand. Not even Fergal Quinn could save it! I'm a business person. I have succeeded, failed, succeeded again and could fail again tomorrow. That's how it can work, but if you don't learn any lessons as this happens, then you are always destined to fail. The CIE brand and everything associated with it is worthless. Nearly 70 years of developing into a representation of all that can go wrong once you allow politicians, civil servants and unions to create a battlefield and peace zone within one entity. Its then never about the customer. Its about themselves.

Returning, specifically, to railways, I can't look at IE from a sentimental perspective. I could never view it from an enthusiasts perspective. And obviously I cannot look at it from an employees perspective. Since I started running a business nearly 20 years ago, I could only ever look at IE from a business perspective. Running IE as things stand is easy. In fact its always been easy. Your shareholder will always bail you out. The subsidy may drop. Investment may not appear. But you will still get your salary every week despite your business being in the doldrums. Great gig if you can get it. The same for the staff. Job for life. It doesn't work like that in the real world. So lets put Irish railways in the real world. Give it a chance to act like a real business. Discard complacent non visionary staff that have always intended drifting towards the State or Semi-State since they first read about Bran the dog in primary school. Discard the victims of nepotism unless they treat the job as an honour rather than a birth right. If you are going to recruit top management from abroad then lets be really visionary instead of recruiting an Ex British Rail man that couldn't succeed in the newly privatized world of UK railways. I exchanged correspondence with Dick Fearn a few times. Bored the arse off me. Met him once and heard the trainspotters masturbatory line, "I'm a railway man". No Dick, you're an ex BR man that came to Ireland for easy money and a comfy pension.

I fully understand that my comments are going to prove controversial and derisory to some people, but I cannot and will not apologise. Until the CIE brand is dismantled, Unions are brought back to reality, management are retained based on performance, politicians stay out of it, staff treat it as an actual job and the entire railway operation is overhauled (inclusive of the above and plus more) then it will fail and ultimately close line by line.

corktina · 05-12-2011 11:52am

i suppose the line up of thankers on DWs post is predictable, but keep banging that drum, theres a lot of people need to hear it.

OurLadyofKnock · 05-12-2011 12:40pm

DWCommuter wrote: »

The safety issue in the UK was created by placing the infrastructure in private ownership. (It has since been returned to state ownership.)The pursuit of profit lead to corner cutting on essential safety practices. I'm proposing, like many others have, that the rail infrastructure in Ireland, be retained in state ownership. Furthermore I'm also proposing that the services be operated by the private sector and or a semi state.(new practices if it is a semi state.)

The UK model is often touted in a negative fashion, when in fact it can provide Ireland with invaluable lessons. The UK didn't get it quite right, but that does not mean that its model should be ignored. Realistically we can't keep pumping hundreds of millions per annum into IE and we cannot accept line closures or service cut backs as an anecdote to a Government cut in subsidy. The railway must be recast so it can perform like a proper business and not as some sort of state dependent.

Once again I need to stress why it is all wrong. Luas was taken out of CIE hands because the state knew it would not have the same impact under the CIE banner and would be tied into every established cultural timebomb that manifested itself within the company. But there is a continued reluctance to finally face down the CIE cartel. It does not justify its high salaries. It does not justify its actual existence. Its a mess. A holding company and a few subs. A history of negativity behind it. A bad brand. Not even Fergal Quinn could save it! I'm a business person. I have succeeded, failed, succeeded again and could fail again tomorrow. That's how it can work, but if you don't learn any lessons as this happens, then you are always destined to fail. The CIE brand and everything associated with it is worthless. Nearly 70 years of developing into a representation of all that can go wrong once you allow politicians, civil servants and unions to create a battlefield and peace zone within one entity. Its then never about the customer. Its about themselves.

Returning, specifically, to railways, I can't look at IE from a sentimental perspective. I could never view it from an enthusiasts perspective. And obviously I cannot look at it from an employees perspective. Since I started running a business nearly 20 years ago, I could only ever look at IE from a business perspective. Running IE as things stand is easy. In fact its always been easy. Your shareholder will always bail you out. The subsidy may drop. Investment may not appear. But you will still get your salary every week despite your business being in the doldrums. Great gig if you can get it. The same for the staff. Job for life. It doesn't work like that in the real world. So lets put Irish railways in the real world. Give it a chance to act like a real business. Discard complacent non visionary staff that have always intended drifting towards the State or Semi-State since they first read about Bran the dog in primary school. Discard the victims of nepotism unless they treat the job as an honour rather than a birth right. If you are going to recruit top management from abroad then lets be really visionary instead of recruiting an Ex British Rail man that couldn't succeed in the newly privatized world of UK railways. I exchanged correspondence with Dick Fearn a few times. Bored the arse off me. Met him once and heard the trainspotters masturbatory line, "I'm a railway man". No Dick, you're an ex BR man that came to Ireland for easy money and a comfy pension.

I fully understand that my comments are going to prove controversial and derisory to some people, but I cannot and will not apologise. Until the CIE brand is dismantled, Unions are brought back to reality, management are retained based on performance, politicians stay out of it, staff treat it as an actual job and the entire railway operation is overhauled (inclusive of the above and plus more) then it will fail and ultimately close line by line.

This really needs to be read by as many people as possible. The problem and the solution all in one go.

Judgement Day · 05-12-2011 12:40pm

corktina wrote: »

i suppose the line up of thankers on DWs post is predictable, but keep banging that drum, theres a lot of people need to hear it.

The usually notable absentees as well.

OurLadyofKnock · 05-12-2011 6:29pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

The usually notable absentees as well.

They can do without the embrassment next to the IRRS tea trolley.

corktina · 05-12-2011 7:52pm

you are all a load of thankers...:D

DWCommuter · 05-12-2011 8:04pm

OurLadyofKnock wrote: »

They can do without the embrassment next to the IRRS tea trolley.

You know, forget them. Lets not afford them the opportunity of having this thread closed by reporting posts because they are unwilling to accept another view. Back OT.

8% cut in CIE subsidy. Minister has requested they absorb some of the cut, but fare hikes are already in the offing. Its obvious to all that the subsidy will continue to drop for at least another 3 years and if IE keep raising fares to make ends meet, then its do or die time. Their product is already over priced for what you get IMO. And lets never forget the Motorways.

Mass Rail Closing in the Next Decade?

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