Mass Rail Closing in the Next Decade?

highlydebased

OurLadyofKnock wrote: »

Not as stupid as the 5 implusive trainspotters who gave him a thumbs up mind. LOL!

I love boards.

I'm not a trainspotter. Your point?

foggy_lad

CIE wrote: »

...and yet, there's such a "need" to build motorways through your stereotypical "rural Ireland"? That's an average of 30 to 50 acres per mile that can't be used for farming anymore.

You keep thinking small, you'll remain small. The only reason that Ireland is not like Germany or the UK is due to that small thinking. The only reason. Hold onto that subservient thinking, and all you'll be is someone else's breadbasket.

Don't look at how much land is used but look at the cost of using the service when complete! Dublin to cork return for 4 adults by train is about €284 and you must add travel to and from Heuston and Kent stations by taxi, so about €300.

Now compare that to car travel which is much faster and more comfortable and quieter as well as being muh more flexible! and lunch can be bought en route for a fraction of railway food prices, also only a few trains now have kitchen and full dining facilities.

The car takes you from door to door which the train can never do. Diesel or petrol for the return to cork would cost only a fraction of the train fares, I dont know the approximate cost but I am sure someone can share if they have done the journey?

CIE

bk wrote: »

You might have been able to make this argument 10 years ago.* But it is pointless now. The motorway has been built and is mostly complete. It was built to a very high standard and is mostly underutilised.

We are now broke and intercity rail is not competitive.

So the correct question to ask now is, with money very tight and the motorway network already in place, should we continue to heavily subsidise intercity rail?

And if yes, then why?

* To be honest even 10 years ago the answer would still have been yes, invest in motorways. Name a single country in the world that has a high quality rail network but no motorways?

The reality is you will always need a high quality motorway network, to go all the places that rail doesn't, to take private cars and road freight so vital to a countries economy.

For intercity transport, rail will always be secondary. Usually when their are large distances between large cities and rail offers journeys that are faster then by car but cheaper then flying.

Actually, the question is why is intercity rail heavily subsidised. The answer is lack of speed; the faster it runs, the more competitive it becomes and the less it needs subsidy. This is not a paradox. The traditional intercity railway network can be upgraded for speeds between 200 and 230 km/h, for far cheaper than building motorways everywhere or expanding airports; Ireland is way behind on that. And rail freight doesn't need to travel that fast, even though that would be a big plus. The state won't do it for you, though; you have to demand this kind of thing back from the state.

The converse to your question would be "name a single country that has motorways but not a high quality railway network?" There isn't one. Motorways on arteries that do not have the traffic density for them are tremendous wastes of money and land. Without the revenue to support their existence, they will fall apart; and that's not without precedent either.

bk

CIE wrote: »

Actually, the question is why is intercity rail heavily subsidised. The answer is lack of speed; the faster it runs, the more competitive it becomes and the less it needs subsidy. This is not a paradox. The traditional intercity railway network can be upgraded for speeds between 200 and 230 km/h, for far cheaper than building motorways everywhere or expanding airports; Ireland is way behind on that. And rail freight doesn't need to travel that fast, even though that would be a big plus. The state won't do it for you, though; you have to demand this kind of thing back from the state.

Great idea, why didn't IR bother their asses to do it over the last 10 years when money was been thrown at them?

Upgrading the rail network is going to cost big money. Money we no longer have, so it isn't going to happen.

No more motorways or airports are going to be built or expanded either. In fact airports are being closed.

So given that there is no money to speed up the trains and the trains are slower then car and about the same as coach, then we should be thinking seriously if we should continue to be subsidising intercity rail.

OurLadyofKnock

highlydebased wrote: »

I'm not a trainspotter. Your point?

Your point is: you simply don't have one.

OurLadyofKnock

kieran4003 wrote: »

What type of rolling stock do you need for a recession railway? Clapped out, Life expired coaches? This statement baffles me. We have a large fleet of very modern rolling stock, although there is too much 20000s now I agree.

Flexible locos and coaches which can be adapted to suit costomised operational needs.

For instance, you can make a bicycle coach to capture that market. Maybe even space for pacels traffic and so on. Basically all the things that the perfectly good Mk3s could of performed if not strategecially wasted during IEs rush to spend money on kit - just for the sake of it. As it stands IE cannot modify the new railcars for this stuff as it would violate the service contract and insurance requirement. CAF and Rotem will not allow this as they could be liable from any accident which might result from modifactions.

BOTTOM LINE: The new rolling stock is a dud except for what it says on the tin.

The 22000s are crap apparently and were a rush order to get "shiny trains". I imagine most will be scrapped in a very short time.

kieran4003 wrote: »

There are plenty spare locos. There are 10 201 class stored in Inchicore.

They are too heavy to operate on mush of the network and their weight and engines have already wrecked vast amounts of track. Yet the new commuters lines to Midleton and Pace were built literally to TGV standards for a couple of railcars rattling back and forth. It beggars belief.


What we are left with is a commuter rail system and a pretty crappy one at that. That's it.

Captain Chaos

OurLadyofKnock wrote: »

They are too heavy to operate on mush of the network and their weight and engines have already wrecked vast amounts of track. Yet the new commuters lines to Midleton and Pace were built literally to TGV standards for a couple of railcars rattling back and forth. It beggars belief.

The 201 class have very few restrictions now compared to say 5 years ago. Sure they can now work all of the Sligo line. They can now work most of the network but they are hard on the tracks, well the cheap light stuff IE install.

The UK have hundreds of class 66s, 201s cousins, running all over their network on heavy freights no problem. Sure they are only doing 65-70mph but still.

Jehuty42

kieran4003 wrote: »

It baffles me ..

Most sensible post I've ever read on this board.

bk

kieran4003 wrote: »

Driminagh Road, you do raise some valid points in this thread. Rail has lost its competitive edge in many cases. Howver you must look at the reasons why. This is the bones of the problem:
During the good times, the government spent several billion euro building new motorways. They did not give money to build new high speed rail alignments. They gave money to relay track, replace signallying & buy new rolling stock on the railway. The roads version of this would of been to resurface all the national roads & maybe have a few relief roads around towns. One must see this vital difference. The government spent billions on the roads, while hundreds of millions on the railway.

But Irish Rail never put forward any big plans for high speed rail or re-align tracked. Everything IR asked for they got. And it amounted to 2 billion, not just a few hundred billion. The new rolling stock cost 500 million alone.

These is exactly the problem, Irish Rail time and time again have shown that they have little innovation or foresight. They don't offer a good service to their customers. They are very much a semi state sort of company with public servant type of thinking where they only care about their own job and not giving the customer a good service or value for money.

kieran4003 wrote: »

In fact there were motorways built that were not needed at all. The southern section of the M9 is questionable. The N18 limerick Tunnel & M3 are not meeting their projected usage and the NRA has to pay compensation to the operators.

Agreed parts of the motorway network were over engineered and the building of the motorway network should have been staggered over a longer period and projects like MN and DU started earlier in parallel with them.

But that is water under the bridge. We have what we have now and with very little money left, the question is how should we best spend it.

Continue to subsidise IR's uncompetitive and failing service or can it and spend the money on IMO more important projects like DU, MN, schools, hospitals, etc.

kieran4003 wrote: »

Well if everyone followed your path we would have insurmountable traffic problems in our cities. Driving long distances frequently has problems with it anyway:
1-Driving at 120km/h a lot in a car wears the car down overtime. Fuel consumption is also not effiecent at this point. The optimal driving speed & effiency for a car is 100km/h.
2- It is tiring too for a person driving long distances like that. You would need rests on the way, this slows down your journey. On public transport you can have a rest.
3 - It is an ineffiecent use of your time. You cannot do any other task. You cant eat, work, use a computer, read or sleep while driving unless you pull over - but then you are losing more time.

Non of which are an issue if you take a direct non stop bus coach, with onboard toilets and free wifi, for about the same time as the train and a third of the cost.

kieran4003 wrote: »

With reagrds the Dublin - Cork line the following has been done:
- Dublin - Hazelhatch 4 tracked & relaid, speed increased to 160km/h.
.....

Yet the train to Cork is no faster today then it was 30 years ago. Just goes to show the incompetency of IR.

kieran4003 wrote: »

Next year more radical works will start ( subject to government funding)
- The line will be realigned through the Curragh with the bends removed. This will enable 160km/h running throughout here.
- The line will be fully relaid & the areas from Portlaosie - Ballybrophy will get a speed increase to 160km/h & various other sections will get the higher limit & have all speed restrictions removed.

The other major area that will get a big upgrade will be Portarlington - Athlone. By doing these sections you target the main axis of the intercity network.

This will give us a rail line that is mostly cleared for 160km/h and with no low restrictions for a low cost in difficult times. It is not ideal but at the same time will be able to give results like this.

Dublin - Cork: 2 hrs
Dublin - Limerick: ~1 hr 50 mins
Dublin - Galway: ~ 1 hr 55 mins
Dublin - Waterford: I am not sure of this timing. I will try to find out. Under 2 hours anyway.
Dublin - Tralee: 3 hours
Dublin - Westport: 3 hours

This is the first I've heard of this. Is this not part of the 160 million plan IR were looking from the government?

IR aren't getting this money, so where are they getting the money to do all of this?

If they can achieve it with little cost to the taxpayer, then great. But I'll believe it when I see it. I've been listening to IR's claims of Cork to Dublin in 2 hours for decades now.

kieran4003 wrote: »

If you book online that fare would cost you €80.

How is that? Please don't tell me you are on about the bull**** €20 fares IR advertise?

How many €20 fares are their actually available on each train? 5% maybe?

The reality is the majority of people getting the train are paying €74 return. That is how these demand lead booking systems work. The low fares are jsut advertising BS to rope people in.

kieran4003 wrote: »

This whole thing about the train becoming irrelevant baffles me. Go down to Heuston station at rush hour and see the crowds. Of course on the Dublin- Cork trains you do not see every train filled to the brim like before but there is now a n hourly service so the crowds are spread out. If the old 2 hour service was there now, there would be chaos. Look all over the railway, There is much more trains then before. Passenger numbers on Irish Rail recorded a 1.5% increase last year while the bus comapnies lost passengers. How on earth is the train becoming irrelevant?

As a regular traveller between Cork and Dublin, outside of peak times (even the 4pm) are very lightly used, I'd guess less then a quarter full on a 4pm!!

Even the peak services are rarely full nowadays.

How bad would it be if a direct non stop bus service used the motorway to Cork?

foggy_lad

kieran4003 wrote: »

There are plenty spare locos. There are 10 201 class stored in Inchicore. They are started up reguarly and moved about to keep them in running order. There is a frieght revival underway, There are arrangements being made for the introduction of extra freight services next year, Most likely extra container services to/from Dublin Port. Cork is likely to see a return of freight. Then these spare 201 class locomotives can be used for these services.

The truth about Railfreight in ireland is that Roadfreight is cheaper faster and more beneficial to the economy and consumers.

Our Intercity network was never of a high speed nature. It was built to serve as many towns as possible. It was not desgned for high speed services between cities. However our road network was so bad, It looked very good in comparison.

The speeds were a lot higher 25-35 years ago and very few towns are properly served by trains, most people require a taxi to get into the town centres where their bussiness/appointments are.

Well if everyone followed your path we would have insurmountable traffic problems in our cities. Driving long distances frequently has problems with it anyway:
1-Driving at 120km/h a lot in a car wears the car down overtime. Fuel consumption is also not effiecent at this point. The optimal driving speed & effiency for a car is 100km/h.
2- It is tiring too for a person driving long distances like that. You would need rests on the way, this slows down your journey. On public transport you can have a rest.
3 - It is an ineffiecent use of your time. You cannot do any other task. You cant eat, work, use a computer, read or sleep while driving unless you pull over - but then you are losing more time.

Modern cars operate at their best at 55-70mph, also they are not as unreliable as cars from the past which would regularly break down(much like the trains of today).
The person doing the driving can swop with someone so both can do some work and buying a nice lunch on the way would delay but not by much.

Well there was detailed plans drawn up in 2008 for a major upgrade of the entire Dublin - Cork line to 125 mph. Unfortunately the recession arrived & the chance was missed. Had the economy stayed good for another year even, this project would of started. Howver this is all water under the bridge and we are were we are. Irish Rail is implementing its own plan but without Government funding it is difficult & slow. It is next year however that the work will really spring into action.
With reagrds the Dublin - Cork line the following has been done:
- Dublin - Hazelhatch 4 tracked & relaid, speed increased to 160km/h.
- Layouts in Sallins, Portlaoise & Newbridge have been renewed.
- Portarlington has been rebuilt & speed increased from 30mph to 80mph.
- Ballybrophy has been excavated, pile drived & track renewed. Speed will be increased from 70mph to 90mph
- Limerick Junction has been rebuilt. Speed will be increased from 25mph to 60-90mph ( I am not exactly sure )
- Emly & Graigue level crossings have been automised - Speed increased to 100 & 90 mph respectively.
- Other minor works including bridge renewals, level crossins replacements etc.
- Rehabilitation works Hazelhatch - Portarlington

Lisduff has a speed limit of 50mph through it but it will be dug up soon and the track will be fully replaced. The restriction will then be abolished.

Next year more radical works will start ( subject to government funding)
- The line will be realigned through the Curragh with the bends removed. This will enable 160km/h running throughout here.
- The line will be fully relaid & the areas from Portlaosie - Ballybrophy will get a speed increase to 160km/h & various other sections will get the higher limit & have all speed restrictions removed.

The other major area that will get a big upgrade will be Portarlington - Athlone. By doing these sections you target the main axis of the intercity network.

This will give us a rail line that is mostly cleared for 160km/h and with no low restrictions for a low cost in difficult times. It is not ideal but at the same time will be able to give results like this.

Dublin - Cork: 2 hrs
Dublin - Limerick: ~1 hr 50 mins
Dublin - Galway: ~ 1 hr 55 mins
Dublin - Waterford: I am not sure of this timing. I will try to find out. Under 2 hours anyway.
Dublin - Tralee: 3 hours
Dublin - Westport: 3 hours

Long term a higher speed will be required and Irish Rail have had independent experts develop a strategy for the Intercity network for the next 30 years.

It is easy say all this now but why were the plans to improve the main line to Cork drawn up 15 years ago?

All the so-called improvements you list are more to do with maintenance than anything as when one stretch is brought back up to speed a different stretch of line has to be restricted! In fact works like those at Limerick Junction were more essential to keep trains actually running through the junction due to the awful condition of the points and sidings not just there but all over the network.

As for the Curragh that line should be 160kph as it stands if it was kept up to the right standard, a curve like that should have little impact on train speeds, but there is an underlying problem which has not been addressed for years which is the line is sinking in places and liable to flooding.

All these lines were a lot faster years ago when trains were slower but the rails were in much better condition obviously?

I agree that the Western Rail Corridor was a bad mistake. Irish Rail did not want it, the community did not even want it. The 100 million would of been better spent on doubling the Galway - Athenry line and opening a few stations on it. You would then get a valuable Commuter service.

Agree 110%

In fact there should be no more new railway lines. We need to focus our resouces on the existing network rather then opening pointless lines except Dart Underground. I believe the following should be done over the next decade anyway:
-4 Track the Dublin- Belfast line as far as Drogheda really if you want to get value. The whole thing will need to be rebuilt to a 140mph standard.
- Double Maynooth - Mullingar, Athenry - Galway & Portarlington - Athlone.
- Upgrade the Dublin - Cork line to 125mph.
- Construct Dart Underground.

Double track out to Mullingar but only 4track the Belfast line to drogheda if the enterprise is going to be non stop to Drogheda.

Get rid of First class and dining cars on all trains and scrap the Enterprise service, Make all intercity services Business class. the trains will be travelling so fast with all the improvements there will be no need for anyone to have to pay through the nose for a first class lunch or breakfast, these services are mostly paid for by people on state expenses anyway so it would be a huge saving!

If you book online that fare would cost you €80. The No.90 bus in Dublin & the No.5 in Cork give you low cost bus connections. I dont know why people love quoting the expensive booking office fare all the time. If you stop and have lunch while driving, It will then be quite slow? Well of course if there is a group of you travelling, your own transport is cheaper. This applies anywhere in the world really. But for 1 or two people how could the petrol/diesel, tolls, parking & a factor of the car running costs be cheaper then the train or bus?

How much is 4 first class tickets and 4 lunches? most people dont know thay are going to be making such journeys until the last minute or a day or two before by which time the online fare prices have increased, and I doubt the sort of business customers who would be doing that kind of journey would be happy with the 90 or the 145 or the Luas and the 5 in Cork can take more than 30 minutes to arrive. do members of the board of IE get the Luas into the theatre after travelling up from the country? do they travel with the ordinary folk? no they go first class with all the trimmings!

one person driving to cork or kerry and back is cheaper than the standard return with IE and add more to the car and the train becomes a luxury most cant afford!

This whole thing about the train becoming irrelevant baffles me. Go down to Heuston station at rush hour and see the crowds. Of course on the Dublin- Cork trains you do not see every train filled to the brim like before but there is now a n hourly service so the crowds are spread out. If the old 2 hour service was there now, there would be chaos. Look all over the railway, There is much more trains then before. Passenger numbers on Irish Rail recorded a 1.5% increase last year while the bus comapnies lost passengers. How on earth is the train becoming irrelevant?

Every day there are reports of breakdowns and serious delays on the rails but the honest injuns that are Irish Rail only record delays when the train arrives more than ten minutes late at the destination station. People still use some services because they are trying to save enough for their own car to save them the hassle that is the train!

penexpers

foggy_lad wrote: »

Every day there are reports of breakdowns and serious delays on the rails but the honest injuns that are Irish Rail only record delays when the train arrives more than ten minutes late at the destination station. People still use some services because they are trying to save enough for their own car to save them the hassle that is the train!

10 minutes is the international standard. As a regular user of the train services I have only been seriously delayed once in the last year that I can recall and that was due to a person being struck on the line.

And this may come as a shock but the train is both cheaper and faster for me than the car for a daily commute. No way would I ever switch to the car.

foggy_lad

penexpers wrote: »

10 minutes is the international standard. As a regular user of the train services I have only been seriously delayed once in the last year that I can recall and that was due to a person being struck on the line.

And this may come as a shock but the train is both cheaper and faster for me than the car for a daily commute. No way would I ever switch to the car.

That works for you but Trains are regularly very late at intermediate stops which is never recorded, the train could be 40minutes late in portarlington but on time in Cork but if you had a taxi waiting in Portarlington it is very inconvenient. it is also a major problem with the loco hauled services while the new trains seem to be able to keep to timetables much better.

I don't mind the ten minutes rule but it should be applied to each and every stop on the route and delays accumulated so if 15 minutes late at stop 1 and 20 late at stop 2 the total late time is 15 minutes even if the train arrives at the last stop on time or early! Run to the timetable or give it over to a company that can!

OurLadyofKnock

penexpers wrote: »

And this may come as a shock but the train is both cheaper and faster for me than the car for a daily commute. No way would I ever switch to the car.

But that is what this thread is saying. Rail commuting in Ireland will survive.

Nothing else will.

Drimnagh Road

kieran4003 wrote: »

Driminagh Road, you do raise some valid points in this thread. Rail has lost its competitive edge in many cases. Howver you must look at the reasons why. This is the bones of the problem:

During the good times, the government spent several billion euro building new motorways. They did not give money to build new high speed rail alignments. They gave money to relay track, replace signallying & buy new rolling stock on the railway. The roads version of this would of been to resurface all the national roads & maybe have a few relief roads around towns. One must see this vital difference. The government spent billions on the roads, while hundreds of millions on the railway.

Our Intercity network was never of a high speed nature. It was built to serve as many towns as possible. It was not desgned for high speed services between cities. However our road network was so bad, It looked very good in comparison.

Kieran, I agree we never had a "high speed" network, however I think you are missing the point somewhat.

Here's my side of the argument,

We're trying to figure out how it was twenty minutes faster to travel from Cork-Dublin back in the early 90s over life expired 20ft jointed track on wooden sleepers, on 75mph wooden stock, hauled by a 1970s diesel, controlled by manual signal boxes every couple of miles.

Despite the investment in the new track, signals, trains etc, services have slowed since the 80s and 90s, most trains taking a staggering 2 hours 50 minutes.

Now we have supposedly "revolutionary" 22000s capable of 100mph with superior accelaration, travelling on long welded rail resting on concrete sleepers, controlled by state of the art signalling many miles away.

IE never went for a total timetable relaunch when the 22000s were fully in service. They replaced loco hauled trains like for like on the same times, even today, trains wait up to 6 minutes at stations waiting for the timetable to catch up.

With the Belfast route, same thing. When the Enterprise project first came about in the mid 90s, "passengers can look forward to a reduction in journey time from the present 2 hours 10 minutes to 1 hour 45 mins".

Journey times today are not 1:45, but 2:10.

So, to conclude, IE didn't spend their money on improving journey times correct, they spent it on lots of modern stuff resulting in the slowing down of journey times.

bk

penexpers wrote: »

10 minutes is the international standard. As a regular user of the train services I have only been seriously delayed once in the last year that I can recall and that was due to a person being struck on the line.

10 minutes is fine, but what is not fine is 10 minutes on top of a schedule that has very large amounts of time padding on it and which is slower then 30 years ago!!

penexpers wrote: »

And this may come as a shock but the train is both cheaper and faster for me than the car for a daily commute. No way would I ever switch to the car.

No one is arguing that Metro and commuter rail works. It clearly works very well. What we are talking about is intercity rail. In fact I think the subsidies and capital that is currently pumped into intercity rail should be redirected to DART and commuter rail where it would be more beneficial.

OurLadyofKnock

bk wrote: »

In fact I think the subsidies and capital that is currently pumped into intercity rail should be redirected to DART and commuter rail where it would be more beneficial.

That's really what has to happen now. All the current rolling stock is essentially commuter trains.


Intensify the Dublin commuter region by converting the present Inter-City services to long-haul commuter services pared back to the nearest commuter town. On the Sligo line that would be Longford - the Westport and Ballina Line pared back to Athlone. The Cork line to Tullamore. Same with the other lines.

Try and create meaingful commuter services around Cork and Maybe Limerick.

Galway, I dunno. Maybe something to Athenry and back. But even that would be pointless in a lot of ways. Hard to say. Maybe give it a 5 year service and if the commuters use it then fair enough. If not - then close it.

Everything else retain for possible freight (it is a long shot granted, but who knows) and rolling stock movements.

These ideas are off the top of my head - just thowing them out there.

Bottom line is that commuter trains are the only trains in Ireland with a future as things stand now and many years into the future - we have to look after the critical mass and move away from these social justice notions of a rail system.

kieran4003

Drimnagh Road wrote: »

Kieran, I agree we never had a "high speed" network, however I think you are missing the point somewhat.

Here's my side of the argument,

We're trying to figure out how it was twenty minutes faster to travel from Cork-Dublin back in the early 90s over life expired 20ft jointed track on wooden sleepers, on 75mph wooden stock, hauled by a 1970s diesel, controlled by manual signal boxes every couple of miles.

Despite the investment in the new track, signals, trains etc, services have slowed since the 80s and 90s, most trains taking a staggering 2 hours 50 minutes.

Now we have supposedly "revolutionary" 22000s capable of 100mph with superior accelaration, travelling on long welded rail resting on concrete sleepers, controlled by state of the art signalling many miles away.

IE never went for a total timetable relaunch when the 22000s were fully in service. They replaced loco hauled trains like for like on the same times, even today, trains wait up to 6 minutes at stations waiting for the timetable to catch up.

With the Belfast route, same thing. When the Enterprise project first came about in the mid 90s, "passengers can look forward to a reduction in journey time from the present 2 hours 10 minutes to 1 hour 45 mins".

Journey times today are not 1:45, but 2:10.

So, to conclude, IE didn't spend their money on improving journey times correct, they spent it on lots of modern stuff resulting in the slowing down of journey times.

Fair point there Drimnagh Road. I am aware alright how the train timetables are generally slower now then in the 1980/1990s. This is because:
- The railway lines are much more congested now then before. The Hazelhatch - Portlaoise section is pretty chaotic. In the 80s there were no commuter services to these areas and there was much less Intercity services. It was much easier to get a 'clear road' On single track lines, Where there has been a massive increase in frequency, The line is very congested and many crossings have to made. If one train is late, then many more are affected. It is difficult to time trains to be at the crossing point at the same time so one will have to wait a few minutes. This has to be allowed for in the timetable. Examples of this would be the Dublin - Sligo & Dublin - Waterford line.
- The safety regime was much less onerous. There was no such thing as very low speed restrictions in place for a long period. Perhaps it was too lax but that is for debate another time.
- Before aswell there was no need to worry about performance targets or so on. Trains were thus timed very tightly ( However they still ran to time). The subvention paid to Iarnrod Eireann is dependent on them meeting these targets and as a result place getting this funding more important over tighter journey times. I suppose if they did not have this funding, there would be a serious problem.
- There is fierce pressure on Irish Rail to run certain services at certain times and even though it might not suit train operating practices. An example of this would be all the extra stops that have been requested on different services, thus slowing them down.
- Cutbacks in services have also impacted. Many of the direct Dublin - Limerick services have been cancelled and the Dublin - Cork services have had to take up the stops. There are now a huge amount of stops on many Dublin - Cork services.
- Finally there is some odd timetabling practices too. I suppose it is laziness in a way by timetabling people. There are a few examples of sloppy timetabling around the place.

Overall, there needs to be a radical new timetable brought out. It would need to take into account the excellent acceleration of the ICR units, Improvements to track & signalling. If you actually compare a MK4 and a ICR on a journey, the ICR will beat the MK4 no problem.

Of course there has been many reductions in journey times in the past timetables of the last two years. I was comparing the services now to a 2006 timetable & in many cases, trains are much faster. Especially Dublin - Westport services & Dublin - Waterford services. Even if you look at the the fastest journey times now , things have improved a lot:
Dublin - Cork 2hrs 30mins
Dublin - Limerick 2hrs 5mins
Dublin - Waterford 2hrs
Dublin - Galway 2hrs 15mins
Dublin - Westport 3hrs 15mins

With 0 new investment & a radical timetable introduced you could do the following:
Dublin - Cork 2hrs 30mins ( 3 stops), 2hrs 15 mins (1 stop)
Dublin - Limerick 2hrs (2 stops)
Dublin - Waterford 2hrs (3 stops), 1 hr 50 ( Non stop )
Dublin - Galway 2hrs 15mins (As is now)
Dublin - Westport 3hrs 15mins ( As is now)

However given the major upgrade planned there would not be much point doing this and then coming along with mass disruption.

With regards the Belfast line, I agree that line is a bit of a mess. However the main problem is with NIR and their portion of the route. There is no point spending money fixing here and there on this line, it will need a radical rebuild in the future. The best time that could be done on it now with tighter timetabling would be a 2hour journey with 3 stops. If they had this and ran it hourly, It would improve the quality a lot. The Enterprise is a high quality service, there is nothing else like it in the country, but it just is slow.

Things do need to improve much much more. But they will when the investment is made. I just cant understand this talk of disbanding our Intercity network. It makes no sense on any ground. I am a realist, I study economics, I view things from an economic point of view. I am not a person that just likes trains and wants a train to every part of the country with old engines and carraiges.The rail network is not meant to be a network with little lines tacked on all over the place to link all sorts of towns and villages. Projects like the Western Rail Corridor are an example of this. The WRC has given a bad impression for further investment in the network. It is an old, bendy twisty alignment and is very slow. Does nothing to promote what rail services are actually about.

DWCommuter

Great thread and even more brilliant is the fact that opinion is changing at the expense of Irish Rail. I am confident that this has come about by the realisation that they couldn't run a bath.

bk

kieran4003 wrote: »

Dublin - Cork 2hrs 30mins

I was with you until this point. This train is pure fantasy. There is only one a day and I take it regularly. The fastest I've ever seen it do is 2h 37 mins. It normally does it in 2h 45 mins.

The average time for all services is 2hrs 50mins.

kieran4003 wrote: »

Things do need to improve much much more. But they will when the investment is made. I just cant understand this talk of disbanding our Intercity network. It makes no sense on any ground. I am a realist, I study economics, I view things from an economic point of view.

Really? So from the point of view of an economist, what makes more sense:

- License direct non stop coaches private coaches between Cork and Dublin in 3 hours for €20 return at zero cost to the tax payer.

or

- continue to subsidise Irish Rail intercity journeys to the tune of almost 100 million a year [1].

And then spend another 170 million to knock just 30 minutes off the 2h 50m average journey time. Making it only 40 minutes faster then by coach (which costs the tax payer nothing) and no faster then the car!!!

How is that economically sound?

[1] It is hard to get the real cost from the annual reports, but it looks like mainline rail makes up 60% of IR's revenue, so it would seem reasonable that it accounts for 60% of the subsidy too.

How can that be economically justified when an almost as good coach bus service can be offered at no cost to the economy?

bk

Coming back to the original post and the following comment:

OurLadyofKnock wrote:

Instead it was mortally wounded. Rolling stock is now all wrong for a recession railway and no locos for a freight revival which might of saved it going forward. Ironically if no investment had of been made during the Celtic Tiger years - the network now would be in a much better position to meet the challenges of the future. Right now it is basically waiting to die.

Thinking about it more, I think OurLadyofKnock might be right.

Stop and think about it. It is clear that Irish Rails strategy over the last ten years has not been to reduce journey times, but instead has been to increase passenger capacity.

They did this by introducing clock face schedules with double the number of trains over 20 years ago and bought shiny new trains to support this strategy.

In order to achieve this they didn't want to have the hassle of a mix of older, but still completely good for another 20 years trains and new trains. They instead went out and spent 500 million replacing both the old trains and doubling the number of trains they have.

They then had the increased operating costs in terms of staff and fuel of operating this much larger fleet of trains.

But now the expected massive increase in passengers hasn't materialised. In 2009 they carried just 38.8 million, down 15% off their 2007 peak of 45.5 million.

This is due to the recession hitting and the opening of the new motorways and the worst has yet to come as most of the direct non stop private coach operators have yet to be licensed.

So they are now left running lots of trains up and down the country that are half empty. This means higher costs (it costs the same to run a train if it is empty or full, but obviously better to run it full).

Now imagine if they had a different strategy over the last ten years. Imagine IR saw the up coming danger posed by the new motorways and instead focused on bringing down journey times rather then increasing passenger capacity.

Imagine they kept the existing trains with just some refurbishments and didn't double the fleet size. Yes that would mean less scheduled services and busier trains. But these busy trains would represent lower costs and better utilisation, thus reducing the subsidy required or perhaps passing on the savings as cheaper tickets to make them more competitive with the motorway.

Imagine if they had instead spent the 500 million saved on improving the track for higher speeds. They claim they could knock 30 minutes off with a 170 million investment, could they have knocked 50 minutes off for a 500 million investment?

It would seem with this strategy they would be much better placed to survive the competition with the motorways.

kieran4003

bk wrote: »

I was with you until this point. This train is pure fantasy. There is only one a day and I take it regularly. The fastest I've ever seen it do is 2h 37 mins. It normally does it in 2h 45 mins.

The average time for all services is 2hrs 50mins.

That is not true. Sure my father drives that train and he says whenever he is on it, he nearly always does it in 2hrs 30. He said if there was no slower trains in front of you, with only 2 stops 2:25 would be easily done, and the time is dropping all the time as the speed restrictions are removed. If it reguarly was taking 2hrs 45, It would have a shocking puncuality rate and Irish Rail would have to lenghten its schedule in the timetable. They had to do this 2 years ago when they reduced the old 06:30 to 2hrs30, It only had 1 stop but was a disaster for puncuality. It was brought in when there were speed restrictions in place all over the line, The whole service was a disaster for several months at the end of 2009. The 06:30 was changed to 2hrs 45 4 weeks after being introduced! The current service is in place over a year beacuse it is punctual.

Of course there is the 07:30 which is allocated 2:35, It usually gets a clear run to Islandbridge and is there before 10, but has to wait for the 10:00 to Cork to leave platform 5. So its arrival is usually about 10:02/03 There needs to be a platform freed up so that there are 2 available for Cork trains.

bk wrote: »

Really? So from the point of view of an economist, what makes more sense:

- License direct non stop coaches private coaches between Cork and Dublin in 3 hours for €20 return at zero cost to the tax payer.

or

- continue to subsidise Irish Rail intercity journeys to the tune of almost 100 million a year [1].

And then spend another 170 million to knock just 30 minutes off the 2h 50m average journey time. Making it only 40 minutes faster then by coach (which costs the tax payer nothing) and no faster then the car!!!

How is that economically sound?

[1] It is hard to get the real cost from the annual reports, but it looks like mainline rail makes up 60% of IR's revenue, so it would seem reasonable that it accounts for 60% of the subsidy too.

How can that be economically justified when an almost as good coach bus service can be offered at no cost to the economy?

Oh by all means, let there be an express bus service. Competition is good for everyone. But I would not see people switching from train to bus, when a non stop bus is slower then an all stop train? Nor would it be cheaper. In my opinion it would be difficult to make it commercially viable, There does not appear to be any interest in operating such a service by any private company, the M8 is done over a year and a half now. Bus Eireann appears to have no interest in introducing an X8 service either.

bk

kieran4003 wrote: »

Oh by all means, let there be an express bus service. Competition is good for everyone. But I would not see people switching from train to bus, when a non stop bus is slower then an all stop train? Nor would it be cheaper. In my opinion it would be difficult to make it commercially viable, There does not appear to be any interest in operating such a service by any private company, the M8 is done over a year and a half now. Bus Eireann appears to have no interest in introducing an X8 service either.

Really the two private train coach operators between Galway and Dublin have devastated passengers numbers on Irish Rail to Galway.

Of course it would be cheaper, it is cheaper:
- Galway to Dublin return €44 by Irish Rail, €20 by GoBus or City link.
- Cork to Dublin return €74 by Irish Rail, €22 by Aircoach (yes not a direct service but indicative of the cost of a ticket would be).

The coach can also be faster:
- Galway to Dublin by rail 2hrs 35min to 2hrs 45mins
- GoBus/Citylink 2hrs 30mins and they drop you at O'Connell Bridge, which is much more convenient then being dropped at Heuston and then having to get the LUAS into town.

Difficult to make it commercially viable? Seems it was commercially viable enough for two private operators to setup hourly services to Galway, with Irish Rail and Bus Eireann already there and they are doing very well.

Do you honestly think a 3 hour bus service to Cork for €20 wouldn't steal a massive number of customers off Irish Rail? and wouldn't be successful? Honestly I think your view is heavily tinted by your father. As a regular user of the Cork to Dublin train, I can assure you if such a service exist, I'd never again grace the inside of an Irish Rail train. Why would I, €25 is a hell of a lot less then €74. That €50 difference would go a long way and just for the sake of an extra 5 minutes.

I'm pretty certain a lot of people would think the same way. Hell there are already 2 non direct (4 to 5 hours) bus services (Bus Eireann and Aircoach) between Cork to Dublin and they do plenty of business. Do you really think a direct service wouldn't also steal a lot of customers from them?

For a person who claims to think from the point of view of an economist, you are not making much business or economical sense.

As for no one introducing such a service yet, well everyone knows that there is a massive backlog of new bus license applications with the NTA and that they are working their way through this backlog.

I can guarantee you at least one if not two companies have applied for direct, non stop licenses on each of the major roots.

And you never answered my question, how does it make sense to continue to subsidise intercity rail to the tune of 100 million per year, when bus coaches would cost the tax payer zero?

foggy_lad

Ourladyofknock's points about the services from IE being more commuter geared are appropriate as many of the Intercity routes are losing the few trains they had with meals and full dining cars and kitchens. there are now no real first class trains on the Waterford route and no train works the route with a dining car.

http://www.irishrail.ie/your_journey/printed_timetable_pdfs/2011/Dublin%20Waterford%2011.pdf

The timetable does list 2 trains a day(3 on Sundays) which are !st class but any passenger can argue this as the trains have no proper 1st class cars and no dining car and meals served!

Other lines are falling into the same Commuter mould with 1st class cars being the same as the rest apoart from maybe being a bit quieter.

http://www.irishrail.ie/your_journey/printed_timetable_pdfs/2011/Dublin%20Cork%2011.pdf

The Cork train has a dining car and kitchen on only 6 of 15 trains to Cork and 5/15 trains from Cork-Dublin and there is only a snack trolly at weekends.

Also worth noting that two trains a day on the Cork service are 22000 DMU's but IE does not class these as having 1st class so how can these same trains have 1st class on the waterford and other routes?

http://www.irishrail.ie/your_journey/printed_timetable_pdfs/2011/Dublin%20Galway%2011.pdf

Galway only has 1 train a day each way with dining facilities and only 3 trains each way per day are classed as having a 1st class car which is the exact same as the rest of the cars!

http://www.irishrail.ie/your_journey/printed_timetable_pdfs/2011/Dublin%20Rosslare%20Europort%2011.pdf

The services to Rosslare are awful with no 1st class and only two of the 6 trains a day even having a snack trolly!

http://www.irishrail.ie/your_journey/printed_timetable_pdfs/sep2011/Dublin%20Sligo%2011.pdf

Sligo has no 1st class and no dining cars at all but at least they are well served with a snack trolly for each service.


It also seems that over the years when there were fewer speed restrictions IE may have been unknowingly operating a dangerous service and with the purchase of new track testing equipment were able to fully realise the state of the rails and immediately slap on PSR's?

I think that where Kieran4003 says the run into Dublin has become much more congested is just wrong because I can remember the Sligo train 20-30 years ago taking forever to get from Broombridge area into Connolly so no real change there, also the Waterford train takes much longer now through Kildare, Newbridge, The Curragh and Cherryville and does not appear to be making any time on the new 4 track section.

and when the cork train gets a clear run into inchicore/Islandbridge in the mornings it is usually at the expense of several other trains which are held at Cherryville kildare newbridge etc

I say scrap 1st class now and run good quality commuter services with well stocked reasonably priced snack trollys and possibly retrofit all the new commuter trains with a small fridge unit for storing cold drinks and sandwiches for the trollys.

foggy_lad

@BK usually when Bus Eireann have a lot of passengers for the Cork bus they put on a non-stop bus as well as the stopping service, if they could regularise this auxilliarry service it would be a big improvement for travellers to/from Cork.

bk

foggy_lad wrote: »

@BK usually when Bus Eireann have a lot of passengers for the Cork bus they put on a non-stop bus as well as the stopping service, if they could regularise this auxilliarry service it would be a big improvement for travellers to/from Cork.

Agreed, but at the moment they are not licensed to do this. They are allowed to use different routes for auxiliary services, but they have to apply for a license to normalise this service.

I have absolutely no doubt that they and Aircoach have applied for such licenses. You would be a fool not too.

The fact that Bus Eireann has to lay on extra buses at Cork for a bus that normally takes 4hours 30mins shows that the demand is definitely there for a 3hour direct service.

I don't know why the rail fans keep trying to deny that the demand exists there and such a service would likely be very successful?

OurLadyofKnock

Now imagine if they had of reopned Mullingar-Athlone how Galway would be on the commuter rail system with a high-frequency service to Dublin. We would not be talking about Galway being removed from the rail network.

Now imagine if IE had of stood their ground and open Orammore instead of Dick Fearn having tea with West on Track and Trainspotters and opening Ardrahan and the other boghole as well.

Now imagine if all the Mk3s were converted to push-pull sets and refurbished and some new small freight/passenger locomotives without train heating were ordered to supplement a modest investment in new railcars. The guff about "non-standard IEs orders for locos being too small" is a total red herring. Loads of private European rail companies had locos built during the same period in numbers less than I can count on one hand and the minimun order was no problem for them. Some of these purchased 900mm gauge electric locos with central rack drives which is about as "non-standard" as you can get. Yet Irish Rail claimed nobody would sell them 20 or so locos - when there was no end to manufacturers all over the world who would of been glad to fill the order.

Now imagine if they had of electrified the Maynooth and Kildare lines with a connecting electrified line via the Phoenix Park Tunnel with Kildare trains terminating at a mix of Docklands and Grand Canal (with proper turn-back options).

No imagine IE actively trying to please and retain their railfreight customers instead of telling them to get lost. They would still have that business to fall back on now.

Now imagine that someone inside of Irish Rail is capable of imagination.

There's the rub.

OurLadyofKnock

The more I think about it - I wonder it IE management is driven by some kind of English throwback stereotype view of this country - and who never envisioned Ireland with motorways and they assumed they was coming to a Thomas the Tank Engine island to just modernise Thomas and Percy?

They never considered there might be an Eddie the Express Bus and Mick the Motorway.


or Darragh the Depression for that matter.

SandyfordGuy

Whatever the issues about licensing, even the stopping services are not really adequate, for example the first bus from Cork doesn't get into Dublin until 10.50 and Dublin Airport until 11.15 with the last bus leaving Dublin at 7pm and Dublin Airport at 6.15pm.

Even if there is not demand for a non stop service, which I'd think there perhaps is, there should at least be a later bus to Cork after the times we have at present. Just a look at how packed the 6pm Bus Eireann and 7pm Aircoach services to Cork show this.

What is really needed is a bus which allows people to get to Dublin earlier, a later bus to Cork, ideally also serving Dublin Airport to facilitate both early flights from Dublin and later arrivals wishing to travel to Cork.

bk

SandyfordGuy wrote: »

What is really needed is a bus which allows people to get to Dublin earlier, a later bus to Cork, ideally also serving Dublin Airport to facilitate both early flights from Dublin and later arrivals wishing to travel to Cork.

Yup GoBus and Citylink's services to Galway are what they need to copy to Cork.

Clockface hourly services that run most of the day, starting earlier and finishing very late.

New modern buses with free wifi and onboard toilets.

This and a big ad campaign would start changing peoples views of bus coaches being slow, unreliable and uncomfortable.

SandyfordGuy

Bit risky though with a recession, I doubt Bus Eireann would be allowed to use government funds to provide this expansion as it would quite rightly be objected by Aircoach as it would be in essence state aid to help it, in it's fight against the competitor as Expressway is commercially operated. Also Aircoach I would say are not in the ideal trading environment either with the reduction in passengers using the airport.