Dog attack question

kylith

getz wrote: »

you are the packleeder get between your dog and the other one ,be calm and assertive show not fear [its because you are showing your fear that the dogs dont respect you]

Would you like to come see the scar on my leg from when I tried that?

kildare.17hmr

kylith wrote: »

Would you like to come see the scar on my leg from when I tried that?

I would

boodlesdoodles

Something similar happened to me nearly 2 years ago, my Westie was attacked by a Kerry blue, wrapped its jaws around his neck. My little fella had 2 large puncture wounds and needed the vet etc. I reported the dog's owner to the warden, who visited the other owner and warned them that their dog had to be kept in control and confirmed they had to pay my vet bills. Found out after that the other dog had attacked another dog on the road and the warden had visited them on that occasion as well. The warden was extremely helpful. It took me a long time to get over it and I'm still extremely nervous walking him alone but it's better. Hope you and your dog will be ok OP.

Laisurg

You were in the right, I'd go somewhere with your dog if I were you, Scumbags like that are too stupid to understand reason.

Ronnie Beck

The owner of the dog committing an attack, or even overly aggressive behavior, is responsible for stopping the action not you. As the alpha in his pack he should control his dog and discipline it to discourage him from doing it again. If a dog is allowed to continue in this way it may eventually become more viscous in its attack and start to puncture skin.
I would never risk sticking a hand or leg into a scrap between dogs. Most of the time what looks like biting is usually harmless nipping and an awful lot of noise. Its basically a display for hierarchy or territory. If it gets out of hand and you want to do something I would walk very quickly towards the dog, shoulders back, chest out and all that, and shout 'get OUT' as loudly as you can. This will move all but the toughest dogs away so you can stand between the two dogs. If he tries to come back at your dog do the same again. The only time I would intervene physically would be if I thought my dog was at risk of serious injury from a group of strays or something. Never had to do it but I would grab a stick or something and do as I said above.
Your voice is better than any weapon. Plus the dodgy looking owner doesn't get his excuse to start a row.

callmekenneth

fifilarue wrote: »

I was very interested to see this thread as when I was out walking my Westie on Sunday, I had let him off the lead for a run. He's a smart little fella and very obedient and never strays too far from me. He spotted a man walking his collie (on a lead) and flew over, tail wagging like mad to say hello. In a split second, I saw the man hit my dog with a plastic stick-so much so that he (my dog) sort of fell over. I nearly dropped dead with shock. I ran over (I was about 10 metres from them) and the poor thing then thought I was going to hit him-he covered down to try and protect himself, with a look of terror in his eyes. I'm getting emotional just thinking about it again, it just broke my heart. He is a rescue dog and was pretty badly abused (physical scars still healing). He has come on fantastically well following a lot of love and training. He was a frightened, lost thing who hid behind the sofa and under tables and was very wary of human contact when he first arrived at our home. I shouted at the man (wrong I know but I had gotten a terrible fright), telling him to leave the dog alone and he shouted back that my dog was going to attack his (not true at all-tail wagging and ears back as far as I know are not signs of an attack) and that I should have 'a dog like that' on a lead. Have to add at this point that the dog in question is more Scrappy Doo than Hound of Baskerville. He then took to sort of swishing the stick (at this stage I had my fella back on the lead and he was cowering in against my legs, shivering). Luckily, another man came up (we were walking in the grounds of an old house, where a lot of people walk their dogs) and asked what was going on. I'm not sure what would have happened if he hadn't come along. I really feel that I let my poor dog down that day -it was me, in essence who had let him off the lead and attracted trouble. Apologies for the long post but I had to reply just to show the other side of the story.

sounds horrible. in his defence, westies dont know how small they are, everytime i see one it's straining to get at my fella, they have a rep for wanting to go at other dogs and also i slap of a stick may be preferable than having to drag them apart if they did fight, you also dont know the temperament of his dog, it might have taken a chunk out of your wee fella whatever your dogs intentions.

getz

kylith wrote: »

Would you like to come see the scar on my leg from when I tried that?

i think i a missing a point,ireland has very few dogs per population compared to the UK,so why are there so many dog attacks ? is it that keeping a pet dog is a new thing in ireland and many do not know how to keep them ?i notice the dogs homes in ireland are full of unwanted pets,where i live[near blackpool]every man and his dog,has a dog[hic] and i cannot remember many people telling me about a dog attack.

callmekenneth

getz wrote: »

i think i a missing a point,ireland has very few dogs per population compared to the UK,so why are there so many dog attacks ? is it that keeping a pet dog is a new thing in ireland and many do not know how to keep them ?i notice the dogs homes in ireland are full of unwanted pets,where i live[near blackpool]every man and his dog,has a dog[hic] and i cannot remember many people telling me about a dog attack.

i dont think dog attacks are common at all in ireland. ireland wouldnt have as many muscle breeds i think. i've certainly never seen anything serious

DamagedTrax

getz wrote: »

i think i a missing a point,ireland has very few dogs per population compared to the UK,so why are there so many dog attacks ? is it that keeping a pet dog is a new thing in ireland and many do not know how to keep them ?i notice the dogs homes in ireland are full of unwanted pets,where i live[near blackpool]every man and his dog,has a dog[hic] and i cannot remember many people telling me about a dog attack.

statistically a lot less than UK. maybe in a small country stories just get around quicker.

borderlinemeath

callmekenneth wrote: »

i dont think dog attacks are common at all in ireland. ireland wouldnt have as many muscle breeds i think. i've certainly never seen anything serious

Breed doesn't matter. Any dog is capable of attack if badly socialised/untrained and/or in the wrong hands.

Pataman

Similar happened to me years ago. A doberman attacked my jack russell. 1 firm kick in the gut of the doberman and it ran away. I dont give a monkeys who is upset you have every right to defend your dog.

callmekenneth

borderlinemeath wrote: »

Breed doesn't matter. Any dog is capable of attack if badly socialised/untrained and/or in the wrong hands.

breed does matter to be fair. american pit bulls are bred to be aggressive, doesnt make them all aggressive and a lot to be said for nature vs nurture but if you have a nervous dog it's pups'll be nervous too. an aggressive westie (and most of them seem to be) isnt a problem because they're only wee, you get an aggressive rottie and you'll know all about it

andreac

callmekenneth wrote: »

breed does matter to be fair. american pit bulls are bred to be aggressive, doesnt make them all aggressive and a lot to be said for nature vs nurture but if you have a nervous dog it's pups'll be nervous too. an aggressive westie (and most of them seem to be) isnt a problem because they're only wee, you get an aggressive rottie and you'll know all about it

Pit Bulls are not bred to be aggressive. They might be trained to be aggressive but they certainly arent bred to be aggressive.

Btw a Westie can still do a lot of damage if it was to attack someone.

Shanao

callmekenneth wrote: »

breed does matter to be fair. american pit bulls are bred to be aggressive, doesnt make them all aggressive and a lot to be said for nature vs nurture but if you have a nervous dog it's pups'll be nervous too. an aggressive westie (and most of them seem to be) isnt a problem because they're only wee, you get an aggressive rottie and you'll know all about it

Breed doesn't matter. Why do people think an aggressive pit will do more damage than an aggressive Great dane, or an aggressive St Bernard, which has a much larger and stronger jaw? And so what if westie's are 'wee', an aggressive dog regardless of size or breed is a problem and I'd rather not have another dog attack mine again. Only last week I had to pull a collie off my bully bitch's face and she had no idea what was going on. Where was the owner? About thirty feet away and not even looking our way. I've had JRTs, Golden retrievers, labradors, collies, a st bernard and countless yorkies and westies attack my dogs. Yet I've never had a problem with a rottie, shepherd, pit, staffie or any restricted breed for that matter. Regardless of what the breed is, all dogs can bite, all dogs can do damage and you would be surprised what a westie could do if it got the bloody opportunity. Its the owners who are the problems, its always the owners and I wish people would just realise this and stop blaming the dogs

Ronnie Beck

funny because its true! The man knows his ****
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheFatAussieBarstard?blend=15&ob=5#p/u/0/avNG2AGtltk

Discodog

callmekenneth wrote: »

kerry blues are known to be aggressive and one should never be off the lead if it doesnt heel.

No dog is "known to be aggressive"

SingItOut wrote: »

Any aggressive dog, whether it be restricted breed or not should be muzzled when around other dogs and out in public. That's just responsible ownership.

Responsible ownership is making sure that your dog is properly socialised.

getz wrote: »

you are the packleeder

You are not & never will be the pack leader because they don't exist. It's an old & now totally disproved idea.

Ronnie Beck wrote: »

As the alpha in his pack he should control his dog and discipline it to discourage him from doing it again.

Again no such thing. You are equating dogs with Wolves.

callmekenneth wrote: »

breed does matter to be fair. american pit bulls are bred to be aggressive,

No they arn't & breed is irrelevant.

callmekenneth wrote: »

i dont think dog attacks are common at all in ireland. ireland wouldnt have as many muscle breeds i think. i've certainly never seen anything serious

Having spent many years in the UK I would estimate that dog attacks are more common here on a pro rata basis simply because there are so many more loose dogs.

There is always the possibility of meeting a badly socialised dog & as good dog owners it is up to us to learn the signs. Reading your dog's language & that of the other dog puts you in a far better position. It also helps if your dog is trained not to react to fake threat.

Most dogs will back out of a serious fight. They become like the two drunks who push, shove & threaten. Twice a day I meet a neighbour's Collie who will charge out of their drive barking. The secret has been to teach my guy not to react. It is the other owner's fault but it is also my responsibility to equip my guy for the big bad world.

But please, as animal lovers in the 21st Century, lets stop all this pack leader, aggressive breeds, dominance etc nonsense.

Ronnie Beck

Again no such thing. You are equating dogs with Wolves.

Yes I was because they are the same species.

Do you have evidence of this no pack leader/alpha male theory. I would like to read it.

Discodog

Ronnie Beck wrote: »

Yes I was because they are the same species.

Do you have evidence of this no pack leader/alpha male theory. I would like to read it.

But they have evolved totally differently & in any event Wolf behaviour has been totally misunderstood.

There is a wealth of evidence on the net. A good place to start would be the book In Defence of Dogs by John Bradshaw.

A Wolf pack works by cooperation & mutual respect, not pack leaders & dominance. Take a look at the amazing work done by Shaun Ellis. The only time that a Wolf pack exhibits real aggression is when the pack itself is threatened. Aggression within a pack is stifled because an injured pack member damages the security of the pack as a whole.

Domestic dogs do not "pack" in anything like the same way.

TooManyDogs

Discodog wrote: »

Domestic dogs do not "pack" in anything like the same way.

But they do pack, and do need a leader. Yes the idea of your dog trying to take over your life because it goes through the door first etc are gone but it doesn't mean that there isn't a pack hierarchy in dogs, there is.

I can see it very clearly with my dogs, I can tell you who is the alpha and who is beta, who is omega, and who is going to be my next alpha when the current one retires/dies. And I'm the leader over the whole lot, I make the rules, feed them, lead them and expect them to follow. Nowhere there is dominance.

Temple Grandin theorised that domestic dogs do pack but obviously not in the way wolves do unless they are a familial pack, and an entirely familial pack is rare in domestic dogs. She suggested that because multi dog houses are made up of non-related members that they rank themselves similiar to employees in a company, that it's fairly strict positions, you'll have some individuals happy to plod along in the same position and some will be corporate climbers. The rank is more stictly followed and enforced because there isn't the automatic thing of 'That's my daddy so I'll do what I'm told'.

I see the corporate pack v's family pack every day in my house because although I have 6 unrelated dogs one of them we've had since he was 3 days old so the older 4 think he's family. That dog has a totally different set of rules to everyone else, I didn't make them up, my dogs did, it drives me nuts but that's the way they've done things. So it drives me bonkers when I'm repeatidly told that pack theory is gone - it's not, I see it alive every day in my house. Relating wolf pack theory to dogs is gone, that's all.

Discodog

There is no hierarchy or pack behaviour with my current three & I haven't noticed it in the past. They are clearly all equal & have the same rules. They are all different ages & arrived at different times. I am just another member of the group & all four of us are in a mutually beneficial partnership.

TooManyDogs

It could be that 3 dogs is simply not enough to form a pack.

I find it interesting that any of the dog trainers/behaviourists who completely debunk pack theory mostly have never had more than 2 or 3 dogs at a time, while the trainers/behaviourists who believe some sort of pack theory exists have more than 4 dogs.

I have a number of friends who have between 5 and 9 dogs, they all can see a ranking within their dogs. It is there, it could be there needs to be a critical number of dogs to see it and in a normal house people only have 1 or 3 dogs, it is quite unusual to have large numbers of dogs.

westies4ever

callmekenneth wrote: »

an aggressive westie (and most of them seem to be) isnt a problem because they're only wee,

generalising much?? my two are both sweethearts as is every other one i've met bar one.

i wouldnt tar any breed like that.

boodlesdoodles

I have a Westie, he's not aggressive but I put that down to him being trained. Yes, he barks at other dogs but he's an awful wuss! I wish people wouldn't generalise with breeds of dog. There's no such thing as a bad dog, just bad owners.

westies4ever

yeah mine are noisy if anyone approaches the house but out on a walk they are very well behaved and friendly.

my female was attacked a few years back by a dog bordeux - i got bitten myself in the attack - it was horrible and made us very nervous for a while. i carry a blackthorn when we're out but havent had to use it.

Discodog

TooManyDogs wrote: »

It could be that 3 dogs is simply not enough to form a pack.

I find it interesting that any of the dog trainers/behaviourists who completely debunk pack theory mostly have never had more than 2 or 3 dogs at a time, while the trainers/behaviourists who believe some sort of pack theory exists have more than 4 dogs.

I have a number of friends who have between 5 and 9 dogs, they all can see a ranking within their dogs. It is there, it could be there needs to be a critical number of dogs to see it and in a normal house people only have 1 or 3 dogs, it is quite unusual to have large numbers of dogs.

Oh I would definitely expect the behaviour to be different with more than the average two or three & I could easily imagine some pack behaviour in larger groups. Logic dictates that each dog is going to get less "owner" time in a large group so competition, jealousy etc. may become a factor.

My concern with all of these dog studies is that are so many variables. Every home is different, every owner is different & every dog is different. So if there were a "pack behaviour" threshold it would be very variable.

Discodog

callmekenneth wrote: »

kerry blues are known to be aggressive

callmekenneth wrote: »

breed does matter to be fair. american pit bulls are bred to be aggressive, doesnt make them all aggressive and a lot to be said for nature vs nurture but if you have a nervous dog it's pups'll be nervous too. an aggressive westie (and most of them seem to be) isnt a problem because they're only wee, you get an aggressive rottie and you'll know all about it

Is there any breed that you don't think is aggressive ?

Cherry Blossom

westies4ever wrote: »

generalising much?? my two are both sweethearts as is every other one i've met bar one.

i wouldnt tar any breed like that.

Funny this, I keep being told by all sorts of people that mine is the only good natured, well socialised Westie they have met and I often wonder if they have actually ever met any at all given that I often make a point of approaching and entering into conversations with other Westie owners and I've never met one that appeared any different in personality or behaviour to mine either! Either us Westie owners must be all delusional or there are a lot of people spouting stereotypical hyperbole on more than just bull breeds. I'm inclined to think it's the latter myself. How either came into being the focus point of a thread about (specific) kerry blues that have a history of aggression is beyond me though - as is all the 'statistical' nonsense about 'muscle' dogs - I fail to see what this has to do with anything.

Back on the topic of the thread, I would be one of the first people to ensure no harm came to my own dog in such a situation although I'd be inclined to use no more force than was absolutely necessary. In the case of the OP it seems to me that the action he took was perfectly warranted and in the case of the second person I would consider the action taken against this dog to be extremely excessive given the individual circumstances. This is my own judgement though and appreciate that other people may not be as confidant in a situation like that and what would seem excessive to me might be seen as necessary by the next person.

andreac wrote: »

Btw a Westie can still do a lot of damage if it was to attack someone.

After a year and a half's worth of constant chewing on an old shoe mine still hasn't managed to make as much as a dent in the shoe so I doubt very much that a 6 kilo dog with less jaw pressure than a flat bottle of coke would be capable of much damage at all.

Ronnie Beck

But they have evolved totally differently & in any event Wolf behaviour has been totally misunderstood.

As far as i'm aware all dogs have been been artificially selected from the gray wolf. Many traits of the wolves have been retained because they are usefull such as the hunting instinct in herding and gun dogs and the aggressive defence of a territory in guard dogs.

A Wolf pack works by cooperation & mutual respect, not pack leaders & dominance. Take a look at the amazing work done by Shaun Ellis. The only time that a Wolf pack exhibits real aggression is when the pack itself is threatened. Aggression within a pack is stifled because an injured pack member damages the security of the pack as a whole.

Thanks for the links.

Domestic dogs do not "pack" in anything like the same way.

I never said anything about a pack. I only have two dogs. I didn't mean alpha as an old school sergeant major type just that your dog follows your lead and behaves as you do in social situations. You are showing your dog how to deal with your neighbours dog by example I presume?

westies4ever

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Funny this, I keep being told by all sorts of people that mine is the only good natured, well socialised Westie they have met and I often wonder if they have actually ever met any at all given that I often make a point of approaching and entering into conversations with other Westie owners and I've never met one that appeared any different in personality or behaviour to mine either! Either us Westie owners must be all delusional or there are a lot of people spouting stereotypical hyperbole on more than just bull breeds. I'm inclined to think it's the latter myself.

my last post on this as i appreciate we're drifting off thread - but totally agreed! i hear it so often when people meet me 'ooh a westie - they're very crabby wee dogs arent they - but yours seem nice'. my vet also says that mine are the only friendly westies he has on his client list - mine are teddy bears and if met with a aggression from a person or other dog they run a mile!

on another note - i know plenty of fabulous staffies/owners and a particularly sweet pitbull/owner who meet most days on my walks.

as for OP - if i'd had a hurley the day mine was attacked - i'd have used it in a heartbeat.

Discodog

Ronnie Beck wrote: »

As far as i'm aware all dogs have been been artificially selected from the gray wolf.

I never said anything about a pack. I only have two dogs. I didn't mean alpha as an old school sergeant major type just that your dog follows your lead and behaves as you do in social situations. You are showing your dog how to deal with your neighbours dog by example I presume?

I believe that the Wolf selected us & not the other way round. I wouldn't say that my dogs behave as I do socially - they are better behaved than me