Dog attack question

Snake Pliisken

I was out with my dog playing fetch with a hurl and a tennis ball, usually we sneak onto a fenced off pitch but that was occupied today so we had to make due with the area beside it. An old chap who lives around the corner from me was walking his two Kerry Blues with his hard-man 30-ish year old son when one of the dogs bolted for mine and tried to attack it.

I've only had my dog now for about three quarters of a year, a mainly black lab mongrel who's probably the friendliest stupidest dog on the planet, but she does what she's told. There's a history with this guys dogs, a couple of years ago one of them savaged my old dog who then had to go to the vet for his fairly nasty wounds and it went for my mam who was rescued into a neighbours house. The dog that did it is gone now but the owner replaced it with another Kerry Blue. He has two, a male and a female- he keeps the male on the lead but lets the other one off because he says it's not aggressive.

Their loose dog attacked mine while we were playing fetch and to protect my dog, who I've never even heard growl, I ran over and gave the Kerry Blue a belt of the hurl on the back(it wasn't hurt, I didn't mean to hurt it either). The dog then backed down while the owner and his son came over shouting at me, the son threatening to take the hurl and leave me 'in a puddle of my own piss'. We all eventually calmed down when his son realised I wasn't going to fight with him. But they still said they were in the right, the owner standing by that his dog was okay to be off the lead because mine was as well and we left it at that. The dog's fine, she wasn't shaken or anything(too stupid to be).

Was I right to protect my dog? I've been told that Kerry Blues are supposed to be muzzled when out in public, any truth in that?

kildare.17hmr

Kerry blues dont have to be muzzeled, who ever told you that is talkin through their arse. They do however, like every dog, have to be kept under control.

Did the dog actually 'attack' your dog or just run over and start sniffing and squaring up?

Snake Pliisken

It had just started hanging onto her(my dog) neck area while standing beside her if you get what I mean.

kildare.17hmr

No i dont know what you mean sorry, with its mouth?

TooManyDogs

Snake Pliisken wrote: »

Was I right to protect my dog? I've been told that Kerry Blues are supposed to be muzzled when out in public, any truth in that?

Being honest I might have done the very same, I have swiped at a dog attacking mine before with a ball-thrower. It's maybe not 100% correct but I won't allow any aggressive dog attack mine and as far as I'm concerned it's my role as boss lady to protect my dogs, I ask them to trust me to make the rules and follow me so I have to protect them.

Kerry blues don't have to be muzzled but often aren't the best with other dogs.

The only real thing you can do is contact the dog warden and report the owner. The dog should only be off lead if it's 'under effective control' and running off to attack other dogs is no effective control

kildare.17hmr

If the OP says it was hanging on with its front legs I think they over reacted and the dog was curious and trying to play because from whats been said it does not sound aggressive

Snake Pliisken

I meant the Kerry Blue was hanging on with her teeth, in her mouth. Just to clarify.




Thanks TooMany, I felt the same way but needed to check with people who have an in-depth interest.

DamagedTrax

i'd have done the same. as long as you didnt mean to hurt the other dog then all you were doing is protecting your girl.

as TooManyDogs said, its your job to protect her and she looks to you for that protection. if she cant trust her pack leader it can, in some cases, eventually lead to anxiety and aggression... now obviously thats not going to happen over one small incident.

golden8

I would of done the same thing. In fact I would report the incident to the gards and dog warden as the Kerry Blue owner was not in control and is dog aggressive. Although Kerrys are not required by law to wear muzzle, they are not responsible owners insofar as they know there is history with their dogs so should muzzle their own dogs as they are aggressive.

callmekenneth

no proper dog owner ever wants to hit another dog but some people are not responsible dog owners, kerry blues are known to be aggressive and one should never be off the lead if it doesnt heel. you were right to do what you did and they were wrong for the simple fact that it bit your dog, end of story. even if it was friendly, yours might not have been so you shouldnt be put in the position of having to protect another dog from your own.

mine is a big ugly mongrel, a sweetheart normally but a divil gets in him when we're out walking, he gets very animated when he's on the lead so i keep a tight grip on him and dont allow other dogs near him (for their own protection) as he will try to dominate

the only time i have any trouble is when other dogs approach him. a jack russel went for him and i kept his teeth up out of reach but had to tell the owner that if i'd let him have done for that little dog so the onus is on each owner to look after their own dog

andreac

If i had to kick or hit a dog to try and protect my dog i would, no questions asked.

I have done this in the past when my family dog was being attacked. I was kicking the dog to get it off her and i got bitten in the process, not a big bite but a puncture wound and it was bloody sore:(

So yes, i would whatever i had to or could to protect my dog should it arise.

kildare.17hmr

i would do the same if that happened and the dog bit mine, from your first posts i assumed it was not as serious as the title of the thread.

My family have always had Kerrys and they would never be off the lead outside because they are very quick to fight even dogs much bigger than them

borderlinemeath

Nobody who is a decent person wants to have to hit a dog but you were in a position where if you didn't act the the situation may have got a lot worse.

I love the look of Kerry Blues, beautiful dogs, but when I was a teenager one attacked my little terrier, I'll never forget it, the dog literally tore a lump out of her jaw and the owner did nothing about it. They can be very intolerant and aggressive towards other dogs and owners should keep them on the lead if they demonstrate this trait.

i124Q

Kerryblues are ugalayyy! Just my opinion.

john t

Never should you kick or use a weapon on a dog, if you need too restrain a dog you have hands which can hold the dog till its owner puts it back on a lead..kicking or striking dog with a hurley/ ball launcher is wrong, if a bully used this on my dog i would return the favor by letting them taste their weapon of choice..

kildare.17hmr

john t wrote: »

Never should you kick or use a weapon on a dog, if you need too restrain a dog you have hands which can hold the dog till its owner puts it back on a lead..kicking or striking dog with a hurley/ ball launcher is wrong, if a bully used this on my dog i would return the favor by letting them taste their weapon of choice..

Yeah hang on there john till i stick my hands in to pull off your dog thats attacking and BITING my dog:rolleyes: a smack with the hurl will be alot better for your dog than getting taken off ya and put down when it bit me for pulling it off

borderlinemeath

john t wrote: »

Never should you kick or use a weapon on a dog, if you need too restrain a dog you have hands which can hold the dog till its owner puts it back on a lead..kicking or striking dog with a hurley/ ball launcher is wrong, if a bully used this on my dog i would return the favor by letting them taste their weapon of choice..

You shouldn't have to, but if a dog is in full attack mode only a fool would use their hands.

DamagedTrax

john t wrote: »

Never should you kick or use a weapon on a dog, if you need too restrain a dog you have hands which can hold the dog till its owner puts it back on a lead..kicking or striking dog with a hurley/ ball launcher is wrong, if a bully used this on my dog i would return the favor by letting them taste their weapon of choice..

so you'd restrain a terrier (or any other driven breed) in attack mode with your hands? thats not always gonna end well :eek:

OP clearly said he slapped the dog, im assuming using the flat side of the hurl?

IMO it was the best thing to do in the situation - kept himself out of the dogs reach, protected his own dog and got the attacking dog away from his dog without hurting it.

fifilarue

I was very interested to see this thread as when I was out walking my Westie on Sunday, I had let him off the lead for a run. He's a smart little fella and very obedient and never strays too far from me. He spotted a man walking his collie (on a lead) and flew over, tail wagging like mad to say hello. In a split second, I saw the man hit my dog with a plastic stick-so much so that he (my dog) sort of fell over. I nearly dropped dead with shock. I ran over (I was about 10 metres from them) and the poor thing then thought I was going to hit him-he covered down to try and protect himself, with a look of terror in his eyes. I'm getting emotional just thinking about it again, it just broke my heart. He is a rescue dog and was pretty badly abused (physical scars still healing). He has come on fantastically well following a lot of love and training. He was a frightened, lost thing who hid behind the sofa and under tables and was very wary of human contact when he first arrived at our home. I shouted at the man (wrong I know but I had gotten a terrible fright), telling him to leave the dog alone and he shouted back that my dog was going to attack his (not true at all-tail wagging and ears back as far as I know are not signs of an attack) and that I should have 'a dog like that' on a lead. Have to add at this point that the dog in question is more Scrappy Doo than Hound of Baskerville. He then took to sort of swishing the stick (at this stage I had my fella back on the lead and he was cowering in against my legs, shivering). Luckily, another man came up (we were walking in the grounds of an old house, where a lot of people walk their dogs) and asked what was going on. I'm not sure what would have happened if he hadn't come along. I really feel that I let my poor dog down that day -it was me, in essence who had let him off the lead and attracted trouble. Apologies for the long post but I had to reply just to show the other side of the story.

User Friendly

john t wrote: »

Never should you kick or use a weapon on a dog, if you need too restrain a dog you have hands which can hold the dog till its owner puts it back on a lead..kicking or striking dog with a hurley/ ball launcher is wrong, if a bully used this on my dog i would return the favor by letting them taste their weapon of choice..

:rolleyes: course you would John,course you would.

getz

borderlinemeath wrote: »

You shouldn't have to, but if a dog is in full attack mode only a fool would use their hands.

i must be a fool,many a time over the last 40 years ,i have had to hold aggressive staffies and alsations apart, and only once has blood been drawn,and that was my stupidity in taking my eye off the ball.

TooManyDogs

john t wrote: »

Never should you kick or use a weapon on a dog, if you need too restrain a dog you have hands which can hold the dog till its owner puts it back on a lead

Putting your hands into a dog fight is the quickest and surest way to get bitten, it's an insane thing to do.

fifilarue wrote: »

He spotted a man walking his collie (on a lead) and flew over, tail wagging like mad to say hello.

If the man or his dog had previous history of his dog being attacked he could likely be very afraid and likely to over react. No-one knows what is any dog or dog walkers history and for that reason I never let any of my dogs approach any other dog unless I've had a word with the owner first, it's simply not worth the risk. My sister saw her dog get torn apart by 2 very large dogs and now shakes if she sees another dog come close to her dog, she's working on it but still rattles.

fifilarue wrote: »

my dog was going to attack his (not true at all-tail wagging and ears back as far as I know are not signs of an attack)

Not everyone is able to read body language so it's dodgy to make assumption that anyone will automatically know your dog isn't a threat. You also said that your dog 'flew' over to the man and the dog, approaching at speed is not good manners and can upset other dogs, just an FYI

tk123

If my dog was being attacked then I would defend him but not if a dog just ran over to say hello. That said last year I had to lift and idiot dog off my guy who basically had a broken leg held together with plates and pins THREE times while their owner stood there in cuckoo land until a friend of ours told them the story with my guy and to go and get him. That cost us €170 in rays and the longest week and a half of my life waiting to see if he was ok and if damage had been done. To that effect if somebody's dog is being an arse and the owner is oblivious I either tell them or move on to get away from them. One bad experience can have a huge impact on a dog - I've experienced this with my guy and have spent a lot of time working on it. Why should I let somebody who cant be bothered training their dog undo all my work?

borderlinemeath

getz wrote: »

i must be a fool,many a time over the last 40 years ,i have had to hold aggressive staffies and alsations apart, and only once has blood been drawn,and that was my stupidity in taking my eye off the ball.

I think you're mixing it up. I'm not talking about aggressive dogs being held apart. I'm talking about physically separating two dogs when fully attacking each other - and if that is what you were doing - then yes I think you're foolish to do so.

Not that I agree with it - but shouldn't you have had those RBs muzzled?:rolleyes:

SingItOut

You had every right to protect your dog, dogs are members of our family and we should protect them any way we can. I would have done the same if another dog had attacked either of my two

Any aggressive dog, whether it be restricted breed or not should be muzzled when around other dogs and out in public. That's just responsible ownership.

getz

borderlinemeath wrote: »

I think you're mixing it up. I'm not talking about aggressive dogs being held apart. I'm talking about physically separating two dogs when fully attacking each other - and if that is what you were doing - then yes I think you're foolish to do so.

Not that I agree with it - but shouldn't you have had those RBs muzzled?:rolleyes:

you are the packleeder get between your dog and the other one ,be calm and assertive show not fear [its because you are showing your fear that the dogs dont respect you] i used to be involved with staffies showing and going to staffy clubs, years ago a dog would come into the club showing dominance,it did not take much to set off a fight so you would quickly learn how to handle those situations ,what could have turned into something nasty,ends up with just a growl.staffies in the UK do not need to be muzzled,unlike ireland who i must say did not think out their muzzleing laws properly

borderlinemeath

getz wrote: »

you are the packleeder get between your dog and the other one ,be calm and assertive show not fear [its because you are showing your fear that the dogs dont respect you] i used to be involved with staffies showing and going to staffy clubs, years ago a dog would come into the club showing dominance,it did not take much to set off a fight so you would quickly learn how to handle those situations ,what could have turned into something nasty,ends up with just a growl.staffies in the UK do not need to be muzzled,unlike ireland who i must say did not think out their muzzleing laws properly

So in different situation, at a dog show, where dogs are usually leashed, where I would the imagine owners and handlers to have knowledge of their dogs temperament and behaviour. Not the same as two dogs going hell for leather at each other.

And it's nothing to do with being a packleader, if a dog is being attacked by another it will defend itself regardless of what you want. Especially to "get between your dog and the other one".

getz

borderlinemeath wrote: »

So in different situation, at a dog show, where dogs are usually leashed, where I would the imagine owners and handlers to have knowledge of their dogs temperament and behaviour. Not the same as two dogs going hell for leather at each other.

And it's nothing to do with being a packleader, if a dog is being attacked by another it will defend itself regardless of what you want. Especially to "get between your dog and the other one".

as i said i have had dogs for over 40 years all staffies and bullies ,if you are a pack leader the others dog will not enter your space practice it,it really works

i124Q

LOCK YOUR BITHCES UP!!

star-pants

i124Q - rude, unhelpful and aggressive .... solution? - Ban

jamesd

john t wrote: »

Never should you kick or use a weapon on a dog, if you need too restrain a dog you have hands which can hold the dog till its owner puts it back on a lead..kicking or striking dog with a hurley/ ball launcher is wrong, if a bully used this on my dog i would return the favor by letting them taste their weapon of choice..

So if a unknown dog is biting your dog you are saying that you would bend down and catch him with your hands? Jesus thats just daft and stupid and your asking to be bit by pulling an unknown dog that is in the middle of an attack.

I would do as the above poster did and either hit or kick the other dog till be stopped attacking mine.

kylith

getz wrote: »

you are the packleeder get between your dog and the other one ,be calm and assertive show not fear [its because you are showing your fear that the dogs dont respect you]

Would you like to come see the scar on my leg from when I tried that?

kildare.17hmr

kylith wrote: »

Would you like to come see the scar on my leg from when I tried that?

I would

boodlesdoodles

Something similar happened to me nearly 2 years ago, my Westie was attacked by a Kerry blue, wrapped its jaws around his neck. My little fella had 2 large puncture wounds and needed the vet etc. I reported the dog's owner to the warden, who visited the other owner and warned them that their dog had to be kept in control and confirmed they had to pay my vet bills. Found out after that the other dog had attacked another dog on the road and the warden had visited them on that occasion as well. The warden was extremely helpful. It took me a long time to get over it and I'm still extremely nervous walking him alone but it's better. Hope you and your dog will be ok OP.

Laisurg

You were in the right, I'd go somewhere with your dog if I were you, Scumbags like that are too stupid to understand reason.

Ronnie Beck

The owner of the dog committing an attack, or even overly aggressive behavior, is responsible for stopping the action not you. As the alpha in his pack he should control his dog and discipline it to discourage him from doing it again. If a dog is allowed to continue in this way it may eventually become more viscous in its attack and start to puncture skin.
I would never risk sticking a hand or leg into a scrap between dogs. Most of the time what looks like biting is usually harmless nipping and an awful lot of noise. Its basically a display for hierarchy or territory. If it gets out of hand and you want to do something I would walk very quickly towards the dog, shoulders back, chest out and all that, and shout 'get OUT' as loudly as you can. This will move all but the toughest dogs away so you can stand between the two dogs. If he tries to come back at your dog do the same again. The only time I would intervene physically would be if I thought my dog was at risk of serious injury from a group of strays or something. Never had to do it but I would grab a stick or something and do as I said above.
Your voice is better than any weapon. Plus the dodgy looking owner doesn't get his excuse to start a row.

callmekenneth

fifilarue wrote: »

I was very interested to see this thread as when I was out walking my Westie on Sunday, I had let him off the lead for a run. He's a smart little fella and very obedient and never strays too far from me. He spotted a man walking his collie (on a lead) and flew over, tail wagging like mad to say hello. In a split second, I saw the man hit my dog with a plastic stick-so much so that he (my dog) sort of fell over. I nearly dropped dead with shock. I ran over (I was about 10 metres from them) and the poor thing then thought I was going to hit him-he covered down to try and protect himself, with a look of terror in his eyes. I'm getting emotional just thinking about it again, it just broke my heart. He is a rescue dog and was pretty badly abused (physical scars still healing). He has come on fantastically well following a lot of love and training. He was a frightened, lost thing who hid behind the sofa and under tables and was very wary of human contact when he first arrived at our home. I shouted at the man (wrong I know but I had gotten a terrible fright), telling him to leave the dog alone and he shouted back that my dog was going to attack his (not true at all-tail wagging and ears back as far as I know are not signs of an attack) and that I should have 'a dog like that' on a lead. Have to add at this point that the dog in question is more Scrappy Doo than Hound of Baskerville. He then took to sort of swishing the stick (at this stage I had my fella back on the lead and he was cowering in against my legs, shivering). Luckily, another man came up (we were walking in the grounds of an old house, where a lot of people walk their dogs) and asked what was going on. I'm not sure what would have happened if he hadn't come along. I really feel that I let my poor dog down that day -it was me, in essence who had let him off the lead and attracted trouble. Apologies for the long post but I had to reply just to show the other side of the story.

sounds horrible. in his defence, westies dont know how small they are, everytime i see one it's straining to get at my fella, they have a rep for wanting to go at other dogs and also i slap of a stick may be preferable than having to drag them apart if they did fight, you also dont know the temperament of his dog, it might have taken a chunk out of your wee fella whatever your dogs intentions.

getz

kylith wrote: »

Would you like to come see the scar on my leg from when I tried that?

i think i a missing a point,ireland has very few dogs per population compared to the UK,so why are there so many dog attacks ? is it that keeping a pet dog is a new thing in ireland and many do not know how to keep them ?i notice the dogs homes in ireland are full of unwanted pets,where i live[near blackpool]every man and his dog,has a dog[hic] and i cannot remember many people telling me about a dog attack.

callmekenneth

getz wrote: »

i think i a missing a point,ireland has very few dogs per population compared to the UK,so why are there so many dog attacks ? is it that keeping a pet dog is a new thing in ireland and many do not know how to keep them ?i notice the dogs homes in ireland are full of unwanted pets,where i live[near blackpool]every man and his dog,has a dog[hic] and i cannot remember many people telling me about a dog attack.

i dont think dog attacks are common at all in ireland. ireland wouldnt have as many muscle breeds i think. i've certainly never seen anything serious

DamagedTrax

getz wrote: »

i think i a missing a point,ireland has very few dogs per population compared to the UK,so why are there so many dog attacks ? is it that keeping a pet dog is a new thing in ireland and many do not know how to keep them ?i notice the dogs homes in ireland are full of unwanted pets,where i live[near blackpool]every man and his dog,has a dog[hic] and i cannot remember many people telling me about a dog attack.

statistically a lot less than UK. maybe in a small country stories just get around quicker.

borderlinemeath

callmekenneth wrote: »

i dont think dog attacks are common at all in ireland. ireland wouldnt have as many muscle breeds i think. i've certainly never seen anything serious

Breed doesn't matter. Any dog is capable of attack if badly socialised/untrained and/or in the wrong hands.

Pataman

Similar happened to me years ago. A doberman attacked my jack russell. 1 firm kick in the gut of the doberman and it ran away. I dont give a monkeys who is upset you have every right to defend your dog.

callmekenneth

borderlinemeath wrote: »

Breed doesn't matter. Any dog is capable of attack if badly socialised/untrained and/or in the wrong hands.

breed does matter to be fair. american pit bulls are bred to be aggressive, doesnt make them all aggressive and a lot to be said for nature vs nurture but if you have a nervous dog it's pups'll be nervous too. an aggressive westie (and most of them seem to be) isnt a problem because they're only wee, you get an aggressive rottie and you'll know all about it

andreac

callmekenneth wrote: »

breed does matter to be fair. american pit bulls are bred to be aggressive, doesnt make them all aggressive and a lot to be said for nature vs nurture but if you have a nervous dog it's pups'll be nervous too. an aggressive westie (and most of them seem to be) isnt a problem because they're only wee, you get an aggressive rottie and you'll know all about it

Pit Bulls are not bred to be aggressive. They might be trained to be aggressive but they certainly arent bred to be aggressive.

Btw a Westie can still do a lot of damage if it was to attack someone.

Shanao

callmekenneth wrote: »

breed does matter to be fair. american pit bulls are bred to be aggressive, doesnt make them all aggressive and a lot to be said for nature vs nurture but if you have a nervous dog it's pups'll be nervous too. an aggressive westie (and most of them seem to be) isnt a problem because they're only wee, you get an aggressive rottie and you'll know all about it

Breed doesn't matter. Why do people think an aggressive pit will do more damage than an aggressive Great dane, or an aggressive St Bernard, which has a much larger and stronger jaw? And so what if westie's are 'wee', an aggressive dog regardless of size or breed is a problem and I'd rather not have another dog attack mine again. Only last week I had to pull a collie off my bully bitch's face and she had no idea what was going on. Where was the owner? About thirty feet away and not even looking our way. I've had JRTs, Golden retrievers, labradors, collies, a st bernard and countless yorkies and westies attack my dogs. Yet I've never had a problem with a rottie, shepherd, pit, staffie or any restricted breed for that matter. Regardless of what the breed is, all dogs can bite, all dogs can do damage and you would be surprised what a westie could do if it got the bloody opportunity. Its the owners who are the problems, its always the owners and I wish people would just realise this and stop blaming the dogs

Ronnie Beck

funny because its true! The man knows his ****
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheFatAussieBarstard?blend=15&ob=5#p/u/0/avNG2AGtltk

Discodog

callmekenneth wrote: »

kerry blues are known to be aggressive and one should never be off the lead if it doesnt heel.

No dog is "known to be aggressive"

SingItOut wrote: »

Any aggressive dog, whether it be restricted breed or not should be muzzled when around other dogs and out in public. That's just responsible ownership.

Responsible ownership is making sure that your dog is properly socialised.

getz wrote: »

you are the packleeder

You are not & never will be the pack leader because they don't exist. It's an old & now totally disproved idea.

Ronnie Beck wrote: »

As the alpha in his pack he should control his dog and discipline it to discourage him from doing it again.

Again no such thing. You are equating dogs with Wolves.

callmekenneth wrote: »

breed does matter to be fair. american pit bulls are bred to be aggressive,

No they arn't & breed is irrelevant.

callmekenneth wrote: »

i dont think dog attacks are common at all in ireland. ireland wouldnt have as many muscle breeds i think. i've certainly never seen anything serious

Having spent many years in the UK I would estimate that dog attacks are more common here on a pro rata basis simply because there are so many more loose dogs.

There is always the possibility of meeting a badly socialised dog & as good dog owners it is up to us to learn the signs. Reading your dog's language & that of the other dog puts you in a far better position. It also helps if your dog is trained not to react to fake threat.

Most dogs will back out of a serious fight. They become like the two drunks who push, shove & threaten. Twice a day I meet a neighbour's Collie who will charge out of their drive barking. The secret has been to teach my guy not to react. It is the other owner's fault but it is also my responsibility to equip my guy for the big bad world.

But please, as animal lovers in the 21st Century, lets stop all this pack leader, aggressive breeds, dominance etc nonsense.

Ronnie Beck

Again no such thing. You are equating dogs with Wolves.

Yes I was because they are the same species.

Do you have evidence of this no pack leader/alpha male theory. I would like to read it.

Discodog

Ronnie Beck wrote: »

Yes I was because they are the same species.

Do you have evidence of this no pack leader/alpha male theory. I would like to read it.

But they have evolved totally differently & in any event Wolf behaviour has been totally misunderstood.

There is a wealth of evidence on the net. A good place to start would be the book In Defence of Dogs by John Bradshaw.

A Wolf pack works by cooperation & mutual respect, not pack leaders & dominance. Take a look at the amazing work done by Shaun Ellis. The only time that a Wolf pack exhibits real aggression is when the pack itself is threatened. Aggression within a pack is stifled because an injured pack member damages the security of the pack as a whole.

Domestic dogs do not "pack" in anything like the same way.

TooManyDogs

Discodog wrote: »

Domestic dogs do not "pack" in anything like the same way.

But they do pack, and do need a leader. Yes the idea of your dog trying to take over your life because it goes through the door first etc are gone but it doesn't mean that there isn't a pack hierarchy in dogs, there is.

I can see it very clearly with my dogs, I can tell you who is the alpha and who is beta, who is omega, and who is going to be my next alpha when the current one retires/dies. And I'm the leader over the whole lot, I make the rules, feed them, lead them and expect them to follow. Nowhere there is dominance.

Temple Grandin theorised that domestic dogs do pack but obviously not in the way wolves do unless they are a familial pack, and an entirely familial pack is rare in domestic dogs. She suggested that because multi dog houses are made up of non-related members that they rank themselves similiar to employees in a company, that it's fairly strict positions, you'll have some individuals happy to plod along in the same position and some will be corporate climbers. The rank is more stictly followed and enforced because there isn't the automatic thing of 'That's my daddy so I'll do what I'm told'.

I see the corporate pack v's family pack every day in my house because although I have 6 unrelated dogs one of them we've had since he was 3 days old so the older 4 think he's family. That dog has a totally different set of rules to everyone else, I didn't make them up, my dogs did, it drives me nuts but that's the way they've done things. So it drives me bonkers when I'm repeatidly told that pack theory is gone - it's not, I see it alive every day in my house. Relating wolf pack theory to dogs is gone, that's all.

Discodog

There is no hierarchy or pack behaviour with my current three & I haven't noticed it in the past. They are clearly all equal & have the same rules. They are all different ages & arrived at different times. I am just another member of the group & all four of us are in a mutually beneficial partnership.