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Office of An Coimisinéir Teanga to be Closed.
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Nobody is stopping anyone from speaking Irish. If you wish to speak it, you will not be stopped. Although what I expect you mean is that it's your civil right to have other people's money dumped into your hobby language because you think that's what should be done with it. That is just fascistic in my book.Standing up for citizens rights of this country is not silly.
Dumping thousands of taxpayer's cash into a nationalistic endeavour that will only serve to benefit a very small segment of the population is not only wrong, but a massive waste of resources.0 -
Sure you will be stopped and get told to speak english if you do not believe me ring up any state body and ask an bhfuil gaeilge agat? and see the responce you get 9/10 times you will get a negative response and get told to speak english. This is contrary to the language act of 2003.Nobody is stopping anyone from speaking Irish. If you wish to speak it, you will not be stopped. Although what I expect you mean is that it's your civil right to have other people's money dumped into your hobby language because you think that's what should be done with it. That is just fascistic in my book.
Dumping thousands of taxpayer's cash into a nationalistic endeavour that will only serve to benefit a very small segment of the population is not only wrong, but a massive waste of resources.
My hobby language ?????????
It is a national language of this country it has been spoken in this country for thousands of years . I mearly want the same rights as you have end of story.
There are lots of endeavours that i have no intrest in that tax payers money gets "dumped" in are these equal a waste. This is a living language on this Island . This is people who are native to these shores language There rights are just as important as the english speakers rights they have as much right to speak there language as you do . They have as much right to speak to and deal with the state in either of the national languages .
The fact that i have to defend the language while people call it a "dead language" , "a hobby language" . And the people who speak the language as "trying to take over irish culture " shows the reason we need this office. This is peoples culture and language we are talking about show both them and THEIR language some respect please.0 -
The logic is this .
Gaeilge speakers are apart of this state . Gaeilge is a offical language of this state.. Gaeilge speakers pay taxes in this state. Gaeilge speakers should be able to address the state as Gaeilge. Gaeilge speakers should not have the other language of this state forced down their throats and english speakers should not have Gaeilge forced down their throats.
just beacause english is the majority language does not mean that the minority people should have this thrust upon them and told they have to speak english when dealing with Their goverment. That is inequality making Gaeilge speakers who do speak a offical language of this state a second class citizen.
There are 2 official languages in this country why should people not be able to address the state in this second language.
No one is saying "People should not be able to address the state in Irish". You're arguing against the point you want to argue against rather than the one being put forward.
As a language, Irish is not on equal footing with English in Ireland. There is a divide, if we are generous to the Irish language, of 2 people in every 100 who say they speak Irish in every day situations. I also think it would be fair to say that most of these people are going to be confined to small pockets of the countries, predominatly Gaeltach areas.
Irish speakers do pay taxes, but only make up 2% of the population who do so. Why is it then that there's a desire amoung part of that 2% to force the other 98% of the population to study and speak their language. Do the 98% not pay taxes? You can argue that you're not trying to force Irish down anyone's throat, but when it's compulsory in school, when every document has to be in Irish to pander to the 2%, then yes, you are cramming it down people's throats.
No one is forcing you to speak English; if you want to speak Irish, no one is stopping you. It's simply unrealistic to expect to ring up any office at any time and expect to speak Irish instantly, since its not a language used by the vast majority of the state. Yes, it is a service which should be provided upon request but not one which is forced on people through obligitory translations of not just government documents (which I can see the point of), but road signs, public services, stationary, etc.
No one is saying that Irish speakers should have to speak English. What we're saying is that its unrealistic to think every office, every service, every facilaty should hire someone to deal with 1.7% of the Irish population. Thats not financially viable. By insisting they do, it is IRISH being forced down people's throats; 1.7% of the population is trying to force translations that are not nessecary to 98% of the country.
I also think you are confusing "People's right to speak a language" with a governments responisbility to provide services in the widest possible way, which is through English. No one is trying to cut out Irish from Ireland; they are trying to deal with people in the most effective manner and like it or not, thats through English...0 -
Teamshadowclan wrote: »No one is saying "People should not be able to address the state in Irish". You're arguing against the point you want to argue against rather than the one being put forward.
As a language, Irish is not on equal footing with English in Ireland. There is a divide, if we are generous to the Irish language, of 2 people in every 100 who say they speak Irish in every day situations. I also think it would be fair to say that most of these people are going to be confined to small pockets of the countries, predominatly Gaeltach areas.
Irish speakers do pay taxes, but only make up 2% of the population who do so. Why is it then that there's a desire amoung part of that 2% to force the other 98% of the population to study and speak their language. Do the 98% not pay taxes? You can argue that you're not trying to force Irish down anyone's throat, but when it's compulsory in school, when every document has to be in Irish to pander to the 2%, then yes, you are cramming it down people's throats.
No one is forcing you to speak English; if you want to speak Irish, no one is stopping you. It's simply unrealistic to expect to ring up any office at any time and expect to speak Irish instantly, since its not a language used by the vast majority of the state. Yes, it is a service which should be provided upon request but not one which is forced on people through obligitory translations of not just government documents (which I can see the point of), but road signs, public services, stationary, etc.
No one is saying that Irish speakers should have to speak English. What we're saying is that its unrealistic to think every office, every service, every facilaty should hire someone to deal with 1.7% of the Irish population. Thats not financially viable. By insisting they do, it is IRISH being forced down people's throats; 1.7% of the population is trying to force translations that are not nessecary to 98% of the country.
I also think you are confusing "People's right to speak a language" with a governments responisbility to provide services in the widest possible way, which is through English. No one is trying to cut out Irish from Ireland; they are trying to deal with people in the most effective manner and like it or not, thats through English...
First off i want english speakers to have the same rights i support the removing of compulsary irish from english speaking school . tho i do want every single parent who wants to educate there child in a gaelscoil to be able to do that and not the current situation where a lot cannot get places in these schools and are forced to send the child to english school.
Most people who speak gaeilge honestly do not give a flying fig if the english speakers speak it or not they just want you to stop ramming english down our throats.
"No one is saying "People should not be able to address the state in Irish". "
That is precisley what you for one are saying .
Why is it unrealistic to be able to speak a official language and a native language of the state to the state ?
"No one is saying that Irish speakers should have to speak English"
that is precisley what you are saying in the next half of your post.0 -
Why is it unrealistic to be able to speak a official language and a native language of the state to the state ?
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Its not. Its unrealistic to expect to be able to ring up and speak instantly to the state in a language that only 2% speak on a daily basis. Its unrealistic to expect money be spent on wages, rent, translation costs all just in case someone refuses or cannot speak English. Its unrealistic to expect equality for a language that isn't on equal footing with the other.
I'm all for being able to speak Irish to the state, but do you really want to insist that every single office have someone on standby beside the phone incase one of the 2% ring? In a time when jobs are being cut left and right, that's one you insist they keep? That every single Doctor has someone on staff who can speak fluent Irish despite the fact 98% of people don't need it, and the 2% are kept to a small area of Ireland?
Its unrealistic to expect there to be such immediate translation facilities for 2% of the population. I'm all for having a system whereby if you need to speak to a government office or need to talk to someone in Irish and refuse to speak English, you can organise such a meeting. Independent translators who are not hired on a daily basis by the government but on a nesecity basis would be the way forward; people who aren't getting paid for a job which requires them to take a phone call every six months. But it is unrealistic to expect money to go into keeping people employed just incase someone from the 2% calls. Its not financially viable or responsible to 98% of the country.0 -
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Teamshadowclan wrote: »So what? They should pander to the (generous figure) 1.7% of people who speak Irish on a daily basis? Even presuming that figure represents people who only speak Irish, it's crazy to expect every government body and every public service to facilitate such a small, small minority.
You have taken the smallest possible figure for the number of Irish speakers, and called it a generous figure.
This is nonsense, quite frankly you are spreading misinformation.
The figure you are talking about is the number of people who use Irish every day outside the education system, this dose not include people who use Irish every day in and outside the education system, nor dose it include the tens of thousands of people who are not in a position to use Irish every day yet are still fluent in the language.
Quite simply your argument is facetious.The thing is I can see the point you're trying to make. I get why people would want some documents to be made available in Irish. But I simply cannot see the justification of having a seperate office whose job is to force 100% of documentation, road signs, government stationary, etc to be translated to facilitate the desires of 1.7% of the people, when 98.3% of the population can get by perfectly well without the Irish translations.
Again more misinformation, it has already been pointed out in this thread that 100% of documents are not translated.I get why people want Irish to be encouraged or the options to be available. I do not get how these people don't realise how selfish it is to force these desires on 98.3% (minimum) of the population. You want equal rights for a minority group who only represent the tinest section of Irish society.
Do you not get how breathtakingly selfish and arrogant it is to force a minority to speak a language they do not want to?0 -
Thank you again - it is too late for autumn classes, but I will enquure there for the Spring. The last time I had enquired about Irish classes, UCC were charging € 300 for evening classes !
This may allow me to help my kid with irish for the leaving cert next year !
I would suggest that one of the best ways of learning Irish is in a ciorcal comhrá, they are almost always on, you can start at any time, they are nice and informal and best of all free.0 -
deise go deo wrote: »Do you not get how breathtakingly selfish and arrogant it is to force a minority to speak a language they do not want to?
Do you know get how breathtakingly selfish it is for a tiny minority to force a majority to speak a language they do not want to?
I will say it again: Irish language lobbyists are a threat to Irish culture. They will use emotional blackmail, they will cajole, and they will guilt-trip in order to achieve their aim of disrupting and overthrowing Irish culture. They are the most anti-Irish group in the country.0 -
Do you know get how breathtakingly selfish it is for a tiny minority to force a majority to speak a language they do not want to?
I will say it again: Irish language lobbyists are a threat to Irish culture. They will use emotional blackmail, they will cajole, and they will guilt-trip in order to achieve their aim of disrupting and overthrowing Irish culture. They are the most anti-Irish group in the country.
What minority? Do you think only people who are fluent in Irish believe Irish should remain compulsory? I know plenty of Irish speakers who disagree with Irish being compulsory, and I know many more people who barely have a few words of Irish who believe it should remain compulsory.
For every survey that shows a majority in favour if it being optional for LC, there is one that shows a majority in favour of it remaining compulsory, it is impossible to say which side is really in the majority on the issue, but it is obvious to anyone with a brain that neither side is a tiny minority.0 -
This is misleading.deise go deo wrote: »Again more misinformation, it has already been pointed out in this thread that 100% of documents are not translated
It is the Main Aim of the OLA that not only will 100% of documents will be translated in future but also, at unlimited expense, all services will be available in Irish.
It is this crazy Fianna Folly-inspired project that the present government is now, quite sensibly, scrutinising.0 -
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So Deise, you ask for facts and figures. They are provided, while at the same time being achknowledged not as perfect but a rought estimate. You reject these and then you yourself resort to conjecture and generalisiations along the lines of "People want to speak Irish" and "Irish speakers are not a minority".
Presumably you're willing to provide facts and figures yourself, rather than attack people who provide them and then provide none of your own?0 -
To the Irish language lobbyists: Putting your anti-Irish agenda aside, and instead of treating the Irish language as an end in itself, could one of you please:
1. Lay out what Irish adds to one's linguistic repertoire.
Precisely, I want to know what I can do in Irish that cannot be done in English and what benefits that will bring to my communicative and conceptual capabilities?
2. Also, please give me an approximate number of new people that I would be able to communicate with if I started speaking Irish. Language is for communicating with others believe it or not.
Otherwise it is all style over substance.0 -
There is a sneaky little provision in the legislation that denies English-only speakers the ability to read signs:
-SI No. 391/2008 — Official Languages Act 2003 (Section 9) Regulations 2008, reg 6(3)Subject to these Regulations, where a public body proposes to erect not less than 20 identical signs—
(a) the text on each sign shall be in the Irish language,
(b) each sign shall provide the same information in both the Irish language and the English language, or
(c) 2 signs providing the same information shall be erected, of which the one first appearing shall bear text in the Irish language only and the other shall bear text in the English language only.
I was in Cork City recently looking for something to do while we waited for a gig and looked at the brown tourists signs to find they were only in Irish! Not sure if this was an anomaly or if it's all over Cork but really stupid idea.0 -
Teamshadowclan wrote: »Its not. Its unrealistic to expect to be able to ring up and speak instantly to the state in a language that only 2% speak on a daily basis. Its unrealistic to expect money be spent on wages, rent, translation costs all just in case someone refuses or cannot speak English. Its unrealistic to expect equality for a language that isn't on equal footing with the other.
I'm all for being able to speak Irish to the state, but do you really want to insist that every single office have someone on standby beside the phone incase one of the 2% ring? In a time when jobs are being cut left and right, that's one you insist they keep? That every single Doctor has someone on staff who can speak fluent Irish despite the fact 98% of people don't need it, and the 2% are kept to a small area of Ireland?
Its unrealistic to expect there to be such immediate translation facilities for 2% of the population. I'm all for having a system whereby if you need to speak to a government office or need to talk to someone in Irish and refuse to speak English, you can organise such a meeting. Independent translators who are not hired on a daily basis by the government but on a nesecity basis would be the way forward; people who aren't getting paid for a job which requires them to take a phone call every six months. But it is unrealistic to expect money to go into keeping people employed just incase someone from the 2% calls. Its not financially viable or responsible to 98% of the country.
"someone on standby on a phone" have a billingual person do both . Belive it or not there is vibrant gaeilge communitys across this country and not just in the gaeltachts. Im dubin born and bred there is a vibrant gaeilge community here . you keep going on about people refuse to speak english we don't refuse we shouldnt have to when dealing with the state.
again your point about someone waiting for a phone call is rubbish a billingual person could do both make it easier to get a answer as gaeilge and the service will be used.
By the way where are you getting this 2 percent figure from ??
Do you know we spent 1.8 million to translate these documents in 2009
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/government-wastes-83641m-on-translations-into-irish-1990149.html
we spent 18mil on promoting Gaeilge this year .
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/1010/1224305517722.html
just to put that into prospective we spend 57 million a year on stationary .
http://fullfact.org/factchecks/youth_unemployment_jobs_fund_ed_balls-2750
some how i think the 2% are covering themselves.0 -
usernamegoes wrote: »There is a sneaky little provision in the legislation that denies English-only speakers the ability to read signs:
-SI No. 391/2008 — Official Languages Act 2003 (Section 9) Regulations 2008, reg 6(3)
I was in Cork City recently looking for something to do while we waited for a gig and looked at the brown tourists signs to find they were only in Irish! Not sure if this was an anomaly or if it's all over Cork but really stupid idea.
Sorry missing the sneaky little provision.
The signs should be in both languages if not report it they probably got stolen or there should be a english sign nearby.0 -
Plus the cost of TG4... the cost of all the Irish teachers... the cost of administering exams in Irish for said teachers and civil servants... the cost of grants to gaeltacht communities... The Irish language lobby are a net drain on the Irish nation, to say nothing of their anti-Irish agenda nor the cost to Irish people's ability to communicate with more people overseas through this wasted effort.
We can already communicate with each other perfectly well through English. It's like demanding that the government deal with a certain subset of the community through operatic arias.
They are not covering themselves by any means.
Sustain your own language and stop undermining the Irish nation and its culture!0 -
Sorry missing the sneaky little provision.
The signs should be in both languages if not report it they probably got stolen or there should be a english sign nearby.
Read para (a), that is
the text on each sign shall be in the Irish language.
These paras are to be read disjunctively, such that the public body may have Irish-only signs.0 -
Cytex you've got to be kidding if you believe that only 1.8 mill a year is spent on transaction.
You have to factor in all the money spent on websites
All county Councils documents
Government Departments Documents
& Semi States, Europe...0 -
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cyclopath2001 wrote: »Do you want to force public servants to learn Irish, or just fire them and hire your Irish speaking chums instead?
It's all about money.
Its not all about money things like civil rights should not have a price tag in my opinion. Yes the money they do spend could be spent a lot better for a lot better results.
I do not want to force civil servants to learn irish but do think they should higher enough civil people who are bilingual to provide a service.0 -
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the figure is from a link i have no idea what they spend could you provide a link for the true figure then as that is the best i could find .Cytex you've got to be kidding if you believe that only 1.8 mill a year is spent on transaction.
You have to factor in all the money spent on websites
All county Councils documents
Government Departments Documents
& Semi States, Europe...0 -
usernamegoes wrote: »Read para (a), that is
the text on each sign shall be in the Irish language.
These paras are to be read disjunctively, such that the public body may have Irish-only signs.
Then i would agree was reading it so equal signage for both languages,0 -
Plus the cost of TG4... the cost of all the Irish teachers... the cost of administering exams in Irish for said teachers and civil servants... the cost of grants to gaeltacht communities... The Irish language lobby are a net drain on the Irish nation, to say nothing of their anti-Irish agenda nor the cost to Irish people's ability to communicate with more people overseas through this wasted effort.
We can already communicate with each other perfectly well through English. It's like demanding that the government deal with a certain subset of the community through operatic arias.
They are not covering themselves by any means.
Sustain your own language and stop undermining the Irish nation and its culture!
You are a walking advertisment to why we need the coimisinéir teanga.0 -
Because you feel threatened by reality?
Take your anti-Irish cultural agenda elsewhere.0 -
Because you feel threatened by reality?
Take your anti-Irish cultural agenda elsewhere.
For the last time i do not have a anti irish culture stance now please stop it .
I do not feel threatened by English speakers I do not want to convert English speakers please state where i said that. my culture is every bit irish as your culture .so hence not anti irish. unless you are saying that either im not irish or that Gaeilge is not irish which are both silly arguments. it is attitudes like this why the closure of coimisnéir tenga is wrong.0 -
If you do not wish to convert English speakers through Irish language promotion then I apologise for my comment, which, if what you say is in fact the case, might have been a bit on the polemical side.
It's the cost of sustaining the Irish language (education system costs, translation, TG4) that really bugs me, especially when no one can show me the utility of doing same when we Irish already have a common tongue.. and no one will explain what learning Irish will bring to my linguistic capabilities (that English does not already do).
The "anti-Irish agenda" strand in my posts is aimed at the lobbyists --those who 'promote' Irish as though that were an end in itself. It's insulting. The vast, vast majority of Irish people have a linguistic culture and an identity already. It happens to be English speaking (for better worse) and if that is to change my desire would be for us to look outward not inward, to the future and not to the past.0 -
Its not all about money things like civil rights should not have a price tag in my opinion. Yes the money they do spend could be spent a lot better for a lot better results.
I do not want to force civil servants to learn irish but do think they should higher enough civil people who are bilingual to provide a service.
Eh, how do you propose to pay for your service that lacks a spending limit?
Everything has a cost limit and TBH, speaking to the government in Irish isn't really a civil rights issue IMO (if it is, it is probably at the bottom of the list).
Personally I'd rather see the money cut from this service than Health or Social Welfare.0 -
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If you do not wish to convert English speakers through Irish language promotion then I apologise for my comment, which, if what you say is in fact the case, might have been a bit on the polemical side.
It's the cost of sustaining the Irish language (education system costs, translation, TG4) that really bugs me, especially when no one can show me the utility of doing same when we Irish already have a common tongue.. and no one will explain what learning Irish will bring to my linguistic capabilities (that English does not already do).
The "anti-Irish agenda" strand in my posts is aimed at the lobbyists --those who 'promote' Irish as though that were an end in itself. It's insulting. The vast, vast majority of Irish people have a linguistic culture and an identity already. It happens to be English speaking (for better worse) and if that is to change my desire would be for us to look outward not inward, to the future and not to the past.
apology accepted . But you do reliease that you are doing that exact same thing as those lobbyist i agree with neither stance.
ok ill attempt to tell you what irish brings . But do not take this as a attempt to convert you or anything it is not it is just answering your question. :P
What Gaeilge brings:
Billingualism
http://www.buzzle.com/articles/benefits-of-being-bilingual.html
http://www.derryjournal.com/news/local/gaelscoil_pupils_performing_better_in_english_and_maths_1_2137485
The Gaelic culture
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/1105/1224307103256.html
It brings a sense of belonging and community with other speakers even if it is the first time you met . It is a identity and a culture and it makes me smile being able to communicate in my language.0 -
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Eh, how do you propose to pay for your service that lacks a spending limit?
Everything has a cost limit and TBH, speaking to the government in Irish isn't really a civil rights issue IMO (if it is, it is probably at the bottom of the list).
Personally I'd rather see the money cut from this service than Health or Social Welfare.
Again we should not be forced to speak english . I can speak to europe as gaeilge why not my own goverment. I never said to not put a spending limit on it I said that not everything is about money. Civil rights is one thing you should not put a price tag on . Well of course you dont think it is important as it is not your language, culture or identity. Can you show me a link to the savings that you are getting from the closure of this office as this article (it is slighlity biased ) says that bord snip reckons that there is going to be none. And i cant find a less biased article
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/1117/breaking40.html0
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