Advice for 17 yr old Son who wants to Bulk Up

Howjoe1

Our 17 yr old son wants to buy a bench press with money he got for his birthday.

He has a great appetite, constantly in the bread bin, but built like a whippet without an ounze of fat (Lucky him I think !). He would be a 28 inch waist and most trousers hang off him without a belt.

He is tall and healthy but got it into his head that he needs to muscle up.

I think personally a bench press would be a waste of money and I'm looking for advice to give him, e.g. protein drinks? join a Gym for 6 mths?

Any advice appreciated.

razor425

Hi Joe, firstly has your son got any reason he needs to bulk up (does he play rugby, gaa other sports)?
Secondly a bench press isnt always the best way to start bulking up if he's not fully sure what he is doing. Core exercises like push-ups, sit-ups and the plank along with maybe a set of dumbbells should allow him to bulk up somewhat with less expense and less possibility.
Joining a gym is probably a good idea, especially getting a program from a qualified trainer. Finally protien shakes are not necessary in this case in my opinion unless he plans training every day. The main function of a protien shake is to help recovery so if he has a good diet he should be fine.

Howjoe1

Razor,

Thanks for that. He doesn't play any sports , cycling to school would be his main excercise. So he just wants to bulk up a bit for personal image.


I feel the bench press is not neccesary. How do you decide what weight dumb bells etc? would the likes of lifestyle that sell them be any use in giving advice?

Hanley

1) eat real food - that means meat and veg, nuts and seeds, fruit, a small bit of starch and little or no sugar (that's the ideal). He isn't gaining weight because he's not eating enough for his current activity levels

2) get him into a gym and working with a qualified trainer who knows what he's doing periodically. It's really the fasted way to make progress. A raw beginner has no idea gow to program effectively for best gains and injury prevention, nor do they have any idea of good technique - it's much easier toene set on the right road from the start than have to fix things later down the line having made no progress.

razor425

I agree with what Hanley has said with regards lean meat, veg, fruit, nuts and seeds are all much better than having your head stuck in the bread bin all the time.
With regards the gym Hanley makes a good point in regard to getting a personal program from a qualified instructor. I feel this is all the more important considering he doesnt play sports regularly. Personally I play gaelic football and always had a pretty good knowledge of how to lift correctly from the help offered by other lads in the club. For this reason and the fact i dont really like gyms I chose to get some dumbbells and do some core work myself at home.
With regard to the dumbbells I'd say lifestyle would have a little knowledge of weight etc. However, this really depends on other factors.
Overall from what I have heard I would say get him to join a gym for a few months at least to get a program and knowledge of correct form etc. Also try to go with him yourself or get a friend to go with him as he may lose motivation fairly quickly if stuck in a gym by himself. Also try to get him to follow a healthy diet as mentioned below.

diegowhite

Hanley wrote: »

1) eat real food - that means meat and veg, nuts and seeds, fruit, a small bit of starch and little or no sugar (that's the ideal). He isn't gaining weight because he's not eating enough for his current activity levels

2) get him into a gym and working with a qualified trainer who knows what he's doing periodically. It's really the fasted way to make progress. A raw beginner has no idea gow to program effectively for best gains and injury prevention, nor do they have any idea of good technique - it's much easier toene set on the right road from the start than have to fix things later down the line having made no progress.

Agree on the second point but with limiting starchy carbs on what is clearly a person with a fast metabolism is limiting calories from a ready energy source. I'd get away from the bread but move to unrefined brown rice and oats

Hanley

diegowhite wrote: »

Agree on the second point but with limiting starchy carbs on what is clearly a person with a fast metabolism is limiting calories from a ready energy source. I'd get away from the bread but move to unrefined brown rice and oats

Hmmm yeah fair point I guess. I'd prefer to see the kcal made up from additional meat, nuts and seed sources, but I guess that's not always realistic!!

Doctor_Socks

Wholeheartedly agree with Hanley on this one. I'd advise to join a gym rather then buy a bench with weights as it gives him more access to varied equipment, such as squat rack, and also access to trainers within the gym.

Regards the not bulking up due to not playing sport, I don't agree with that statement. I don't play sport but the increased muscle mass still helps me throughout my day to day life in general and and is also healthier in the long run.

Make sure to invest in a personal trainer and have him write down everything he does! One thing i've noticed with young lads in gyms in particular and something I was guilty of myself when I was younger, was that I would just pile weight on to something and end up with terrible form whole doing the exercise, luckily I didn't progress enough with that habit to cause injury to myself. By getting him to write stuff down, a trainer can make sure that he's progressing in the right way and also has figures to get him to lift when the trainers there to watch his form.

It was this forum that put me in the right direction originally thanks to posters like Hanley and numerous others so you could get him to start looking at this aswell if he has any questions.

StevePH

If I could go back in time I'd tell the 17year old me to drop the feckin preacher curls and other 'vanity exercises' .

I learned too late, for my liking, the benefit of deadlifting and squatting*.


*Followed v closely by pullups.

razor425

It appears I was unclear earlier, I wasn't saying that he shouldn't bulk up just because he doesn't play sports. What I was trying to say was that if he was playing sports his team mates or club members may be able to help him with a program.

columok

Hanley wrote: »

1) eat real food - that means meat and veg, nuts and seeds, fruit, a small bit of starch and little or no sugar (that's the ideal). He isn't gaining weight because he's not eating enough for his current activity levels

It is incredibly difficult to gain weight doing this. Wolf and co are constantly talking about the difficulties of hitting crazy kalories on a moderate carb paleo-ish diet. You have to go down the coconut milk route which is expensive and hardgoing. Obviously meat has its own limits (ie protein ceiling). Nothing particularly healthy about huge amounts of nuts either tbh!

Hanley

columok wrote: »

It is incredibly difficult to gain weight doing this. Wolf and co are constantly talking about the difficulties of hitting crazy kalories on a moderate carb paleo-ish diet. You have to go down the coconut milk route which is expensive and hardgoing. Obviously meat has its own limits (ie protein ceiling). Nothing particularly healthy about huge amounts of nuts either tbh!

It's a better option to explore the avenues ala CF recommendations ahead of just grabbing a protein shake, no? Like a protein shake won't add in many kcals either.

The obvious solution is just to add in a ton of milk each day, assuming the guy is training to support it.

Doctor_Socks

For clean bulking i've found the dairy route to be the easiest and cheapest. 2 litres of milk extra a day or adding butter to home made sauces isn't going to break the bank yet it adds a lot of calories, especially when you've cut crap out of your diet and replaced it with good foods. Likewise with things like peanut butter or other nut butters, if you buy a large tub of it at once its not to expensive in the longrun and is still healthier then the crazy 'eat a full pizza with a few packets of wine gums' that you see on some websites like westside to name one.

MegaWattKungFu

Howjoe1 wrote: »

Our 17 yr old son wants to buy a bench press with money he got for his birthday.

He has a great appetite, constantly in the bread bin, but built like a whippet without an ounze of fat (Lucky him I think !). He would be a 28 inch waist and most trousers hang off him without a belt.

He is tall and healthy but got it into his head that he needs to muscle up.

I think personally a bench press would be a waste of money and I'm looking for advice to give him, e.g. protein drinks? join a Gym for 6 mths?

Any advice appreciated.

17 seems like a great age to start lifting if he wants to gain muscle. Sounds like he is an ectomorph. This just means he will have to eat lots. But it is the same for everyone, eat more calories than you consume to get bigger. Do it while lifting heavy weights and build muscle.



Typical traits of an ectomorph:

Small “delicate” frame and bone structure
Classic “hardgainer”
Flat chest
Small shoulders
Thin
Lean muscle mass
Finds it hard to gain weight
Fast metabolism
info from this link

I like this website. Lots of reading but it seems to be good.

Brian?

MegaWattKungFu wrote: »

17 seems like a great age to start lifting if he wants to gain muscle. Sounds like he is an ectomorph. This just means he will have to eat lots. But it is the same for everyone, eat more calories than you consume to get bigger. Do it while lifting heavy weights and build muscle.


Typical traits of an ectomorph:

Small “delicate” frame and bone structure
Classic “hardgainer”
Flat chest
Small shoulders
Thin
Lean muscle mass
Finds it hard to gain weight
Fast metabolism
info from this link

I like this website. Lots of reading but it seems to be good.

I hate those bodytype definitions. I have no idea how accurate they are but to me they just look:

Skinny: needs to eat more and lift heavy
Well built: is doing something right.
Fat: needs to eat better and excercise more.

Hanley

briankeating wrote: »

I hate those bodytype definitions. I have no idea how accurate they are but to me they just look:

Skinny: needs to eat more and lift heavy
Well built: is doing something right.
Fat: needs to eat better and excercise more.

+1, especially at a raw beginner level.

diegowhite

Doctor_Socks wrote: »

For clean bulking i've found the dairy route to be the easiest and cheapest. 2 litres of milk extra a day or adding butter to home made sauces isn't going to break the bank yet it adds a lot of calories, especially when you've cut crap out of your diet and replaced it with good foods. Likewise with things like peanut butter or other nut butters, if you buy a large tub of it at once its not to expensive in the longrun and is still healthier then the crazy 'eat a full pizza with a few packets of wine gums' that you see on some websites like westside to name one.

If you have no adverse effects from drinking so much milk and can bulk cleanly on it go for it but many people have issues with the stuff, such as respiratory or skin issues. I'd rather oats with another protein source and healthy fats.
I went on a bulk a few years ago using mainly huge amounts of cream, milk and steak to get there, but health wise I don't think I felt the best.
I'm now bulking again going down the oats, meats and egg whites route, I feel pretty good, gaining no more fat than when I bulked the other way.

Say if an 80kg guy who needs 3200+kcals to bulk, CF zone diet macros are set at 40/30/30, proteins would be 240g (960kcals), fats would be 105g (960kcals) and carbs 320g (1280kcals). It would be a mammoth task getting that much carbs from milk and/or veg!

Or are you suggesting you get most kcals from fats and proteins and if so what is the maximum amount of fat (unsaturated) and protein the body can take in per day before it starts becoming unhealthy?

Degsy

Eat a serving of potatoes with meat or fish six times a day and wash it down with milk,train hard and he will grow.

Ever seen a skinny farmer?

diegowhite

briankeating wrote: »

I hate those bodytype definitions. I have no idea how accurate they are but to me they just look:

Skinny: needs to eat more and lift heavy
Well built: is doing something right.
Fat: needs to eat better and excercise more.

Oversimplified: You can have 3 people who have exactly the same activity levels and diet and fit into each of those 3 categories. Their body type can come down to genetics, carb tolerance, other.

You know those (mesomorph) guys who naturally look built and never hit the gym and have horrific diets

Brian?

diegowhite wrote: »

Oversimplified: You can have 3 people who have exactly the same activity levels and diet and fit into each of those 3 categories. Their body type can come down to genetics, carb tolerance, other.

You know those (mesomorph) guys who naturally look built and never hit the gym and have horrific diets

I don't think it's oversimplified, I think I've simplified it nicely.

It doesn't matter what genetics you have, if you look a one way but want to look different you have 2 variables to consider:

1. Eating
2. Excercising

Adjust these variables as required to achieve the desired results. Simples.

So what if it's easier or harder for certain people, just get on with it.

Hanley

briankeating wrote: »

I don't think it's oversimplified, I think I've simplified it nicely.

It doesn't matter what genetics you have, if you look a one way but want to look different you have 2 variables to consider:

1. Eating
2. Excercising

Adjust these variables as required to achieve the desired results. Simples.

So what if it's easier or harder for certain people, just get on with it.

Yup. +1, again.

I'd add that naturally skinny people tend to show higher non exercise activity levels, which may account for their inability to gain weight. And their bodies may just tend to shut down appetite.

But regardless of whatever regulatory processes are going on, the solution is just that they need to eat more total kcals.

Brian?

Hanley wrote: »

Yup. +1, again.

I'd add that naturally skinny people tend to show higher non exercise activity levels, which may account for their inability to gain weight. And their bodies may just tend to shut down appetite.

But regardless of whatever regulatory processes are going on, the solution is just that they need to eat more total kcals.

Yup.I've never met a skinny guy I couldn't out eat. This "skinny guy who eats loads" I keep hearing about is a myth as far as I can figure out. Mind you the only person who as ever out eaten me is my 23 stone father in law, so maybe I shouldn't crow about it.

diegowhite

I agree any body type can be changed to your desired other type.

Simple to do, maybe if you call eating and training right every day while modifying as appropriate for the average jo while juggling jobs, kids etc ...simple

Tigger

columok wrote: »

It is incredibly difficult to gain weight doing this. Wolf and co are constantly talking about the difficulties of hitting crazy kalories on a moderate carb paleo-ish diet. You have to go down the coconut milk route which is expensive and hardgoing. Obviously meat has its own limits (ie protein ceiling). Nothing particularly healthy about huge amounts of nuts either tbh!

i was on 5+thousand kcal a day on meat and veg and nuts with a pint of milk and 2 scops of whey.

Brian?

diegowhite wrote: »

I agree any body type can be changed to your desired other type.

Excellent, we're agreed. I love consensus

Simple to do, maybe if you call eating and training right every day while modifying as appropriate for the average jo while juggling jobs, kids etc ...simple

Not to sound like a smart arse. But it is incredibly simple. Simple, but not easy. I never said it was easy, because it's not for most people. Especially when they have commitments like kids, work, etc. .

My point is that your body type at the beginning makes it more difficult but the formula for change is simple.

Zamboni

Tigger wrote: »

i was on 5+thousand kcal a day on meat and veg and nuts with a pint of milk and 2 scops of whey.

Fair play.
I have a hard time doing 3,500 paleo.
I might reluctantly try the milk option.

Antisocialiser

Tigger wrote: »

i was on 5+thousand kcal a day on meat and veg and nuts with a pint of milk and 2 scops of whey.

WOWSERS! Could you post up a typical days diet for the lawls?

columok

Tigger wrote: »

i was on 5+thousand kcal a day on meat and veg and nuts with a pint of milk and 2 scops of whey.

I'm gonna presume you weren't 17 and were able to fund your own eating! Paleo mass-gain is expensive and you really have to ramp up the fat content to beyond what most parents would be comfortable with.

Tigger

Antisocialiser wrote: »

WOWSERS! Could you post up a typical days diet for the lawls?

i cook a lot so this is just ingrediants

4 duck eggs
8-12 table spoons of oil (in cooking not in a glass) olive on cold stuff groundnut on hot
3 lb of beef
bag of red onions
bag of leeks
whey and milk
a chicken or big ffish
block of cheese
4 liters of water
300g of nuts (brazil almonds walnuts mixed up)
broccali or something very dark green
pack of parma halm
a lemon


i'm hungry now cos i'm on a sine wave of 2,400 to 1,900 kcal a day at the moment

Tigger

Tigger wrote: »

i cook a lot so this is just ingrediants

4 duck eggs
8-12 table spoons of oil (in cooking not in a glass) olive on cold stuff groundnut on hot
3 lb of beef
bag of red onions
bag of leeks
whey and milk
a chicken or big ffish
block of cheese
4 liters of water
300g of nuts (brazil almonds walnuts mixed up)
broccali or something very dark green
pack of parma halm
2 bananas
a lemon


i'm hungry now cos i'm on a sine wave of 2,400 to 1,900 kcal a day at the moment

btw this took me from 6'2" at 70 kg to 6'2" at 110kg in 3 years (some part of it is even muscle)
i'm 104 now interested to see what i look like at 90 kg which is what i'm aiming for

Tigger

columok wrote: »

I'm gonna presume you weren't 17 and were able to fund your own eating! Paleo mass-gain is expensive and you really have to ramp up the fat content to beyond what most parents would be comfortable with.

no i was spending about €250 a week on food

Barry.Oglesby

Tigger wrote: »

no i was spending about €250 a week on food

That's just preposterous. The first thing my Nan would say to you would be "have you nothing better to do with your money". The same results can be achieved with 1/4 of the money and with less hassle. Adherence to Paleo on a bulk is just following dogma.

Tigger

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

That's just preposterous. The first thing my Nan would say to you would be "have you nothing better to do with your money". The same results can be achieved with 1/4 of the money and with less hassle. Adherence to Paleo on a bulk is just following dogma.

i was cooking the nicest food i could, to paraphrase jamie oliver : i ate like a king.

it was hardly paleo weth cheese cheese by-products and milk in it ?

i have been lifting and lifting well since 92 but untill i gopt my diet on a spreadsheet it never worked i rember when i first started my mother said id bve drinking eggs and eating chicken breasts and i laughed at her. i'd be huge now if id'd gone down that road.

Tigger

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

That's just preposterous. The first thing my Nan would say to you would be "have you nothing better to do with your money". The same results can be achieved with 1/4 of the money and with less hassle. Adherence to Paleo on a bulk is just following dogma.

also i was earning over 2 grand a week so better good (my perception) food than coke or whatever.

JayRoc

Tigger wrote: »

no i was spending about €250 a week on food

My first thought was that this is a man who has clearly never heard of hookers and drugs.

nice_guy80

bring him to a qualified trainer

get shown how to do the exercises properly

get a decent program put togethr

either buy equipment for a gym at home or pay membership

feed him good food

Tigger

JayRoc wrote: »

My first thought was that this is a man who has clearly never heard of hookers and drugs.

never felt the need for the former and i've had my fill of the latter

kumate_champ07

he has a body image problem. I'd work on that first. I hated my skinny body at the same age. got obessed with bulking up and even tho I got huge I would still see a skinny person in the mirror, its not untill you see photos of yourself standing beside friends that you realise it.

the gym can be healthty, gain strength, set goals and achieve them, then apply it to other things in life.

I dont care so much about my body image anymore but I defintely cant binge eat like I used to and stay slim, that hit me at 23ish.

Hanley

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

he has a body image problem. I'd work on that first. I hated my skinny body at the same age. got obessed with bulking up and even tho I got huge I would still see a skinny person in the mirror, its not untill you see photos of yourself standing beside friends that you realise it.

the gym can be healthty, gain strength, set goals and achieve them, then apply it to other things in life.

I dont care so much about my body image anymore but I defintely cant binge eat like I used to and stay slim, that hit me at 23ish.

That's a stunningly big call to make, Doctor. You've NO basis forbthat other than your own issues. It'd be best not to project them onto others and scaremonger their patents.

Hanley

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

he has a body image problem. I'd work on that first. I hated my skinny body at the same age. got obessed with bulking up and even tho I got huge I would still see a skinny person in the mirror, its not untill you see photos of yourself standing beside friends that you realise it.

the gym can be healthty, gain strength, set goals and achieve them, then apply it to other things in life.

I dont care so much about my body image anymore but I defintely cant binge eat like I used to and stay slim, that hit me at 23ish.

That's a stunningly big call to make, Doctor. You've NO basis forbthat other than your own issues. It'd be best not to project them onto others and scaremonger their parents.

kumate_champ07

Hanley wrote: »

That's a stunningly big call to make, Doctor. You've NO basis forbthat other than your own issues. It'd be best not to project them onto others and scaremonger their patents.

not really, try again

Brian?

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

Hanley wrote: »

That's a stunningly big call to make, Doctor. You've NO basis forbthat other than your own issues. It'd be best not to project them onto others and scaremonger their patents.

not really, try again

I have to agree with Hanley here, just because you had a body image problem it doesn't mean this lad does. What skinny 17 year old doesn't want to put on some muscle?

A bit irresponsible to worry his Da like that.

Barry.Oglesby

2 weeks ago I got a call from a lad's Da about a course I run in his school. Actual quote: "Will it put meat on his bones? Cos he looks like a Trocaire box model".

Body image issues are one thing, and I think our society causes a lot of that, but healthy strength training to make a young man more muscular and athletic? I don't think that falls under the same category.

kumate_champ07

briankeating wrote: »

I have to agree with Hanley here, just because you had a body image problem it doesn't mean this lad does. What skinny 17 year old doesn't want to put on some muscle?

A bit irresponsible to worry his Da like that.

whats wrong with being skinny? not every teen wants to get big

Hanley

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

whats wrong with being skinny? not every teen wants to get big

What's wrong with the ones who want to be tho?

...apart from their OBVIOUS mental issues :rolleyes:

kumate_champ07

ffs

"He is tall and healthy but got it into his head that he needs to muscle up."



you dont need to bulk up to be athletic. sorry If I'm going against the accepted norm in this forum and upseting regs but gyms are full of people that have body image problems, not saying its everyone. if you dont see this you are blind, theres more to life than having to please your reflection in the mirror or live up to a false idea of masculinity .

Brian?

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

briankeating wrote: »

I have to agree with Hanley here, just because you had a body image problem it doesn't mean this lad does. What skinny 17 year old doesn't want to put on some muscle?

A bit irresponsible to worry his Da like that.

whats wrong with being skinny? not every teen wants to get big

You missed my point completely, these were my points:

This teen wants to get big, doesn't mean he has body image problems. It just means he doesn't want to skinny anymore, which is normal enough.

Your Internet psychology is unhelpful, it might even be worrying his Da, the OP here.

kumate_champ07

also Ive no 'issues' Hanley, Im 6ft 3 and 117kg but Id be just as happy at 90kg, I just happen to gain muscle easily. Im calling it like I see it so no need for the aggressive attitude towards my comment

kumate_champ07

briankeating wrote: »

You missed my point completely, these were my points:

This teen wants to get big, doesn't mean he has body image problems. It just means he doesn't want to skinny anymore, which is normal enough.

Your Internet psychology is unhelpful, it might even be worrying his Da, the OP here.

nice condescending attitude there

Brian?

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

ffs

"He is tall and healthy but got it into his head that he needs to muscle up."



you dont need to bulk up to be athletic. sorry If I'm going against the accepted norm in this forum and upseting regs but gyms are full of people that have body image problems, not saying its everyone. if you dont see this you are blind, theres more to life than having to please your reflection in the mirror or live up to a false idea of masculinity .

So you're taking a stand for a sedentary life here?

People want to look different, big surprise. We all know that, if they want to achieve this in a healthy manner then this is a great place to come for advice.

If you've come to tell everyone who wants to change how they look they have "body image issues" then you're better off not contributing at all.

Brian?

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

briankeating wrote: »

You missed my point completely, these were my points:

This teen wants to get big, doesn't mean he has body image problems. It just means he doesn't want to skinny anymore, which is normal enough.

Your Internet psychology is unhelpful, it might even be worrying his Da, the OP here.

nice condescending attitude there

That was condescending, I was clarifying.