Orijen dog food.

juniord

,i have a dog 18 months old who recently has shown to have allergies , i took him off dry food and i am currently feeding him with raw beef mince with boiled potatoes and various veg with a bit of fruit and raw bones he has improved no end . just wondering if this is a good enough diet for the long term

DogsFirst

juniord wrote: »

,i have a dog 18 months old who recently has shown to have allergies , i took him off dry food and i am currently feeding him with raw beef mince with boiled potatoes and various veg with a bit of fruit and raw bones he has improved no end . just wondering if this is a good enough diet for the long term

Sounds great! It is the ONLY diet for the longterm, for every dog out there, not just your poor little lad that's visibilly suffering. No surprise he's doing better. Good job.

Cheap mince is ok, bit fatty. Use more raw chicken (include the bones) and whole raw oily fish from frozen. 70%. Make sure you cook veg, 20%. Boil your spuds/rice in the left over veg water. 10% carbs.

juniord

i should have said he is showing allergic to chicken flaxseed oil triedeach one individually to confirm , i boil the veg and spuds together so two days food in half an hour , i am going to try and source green tripe, btw he is getting real good mince at the moment in the trial stage ,so its a bit pricey ,no vet bills so it balances out in the long run

DogsFirst

juniord wrote: »

i should have said he is showing allergic to chicken flaxseed oil triedeach one individually to confirm , i boil the veg and spuds together so two days food in half an hour , i am going to try and source green tripe, btw he is getting real good mince at the moment in the trial stage ,so its a bit pricey ,no vet bills so it balances out in the long run

Doubt its cooked chicken is the problem but possible. Use turkey instead. And whole oily fish, good omega 3s to bolster his shot immune system, skin and coat. Mince is fine but not too much. Cheap stuff is fine. Use lidl. Tripe is ok but not brilliant, do not reply solely upon it. Mix. Should be feeding him for 2.50/kg

juniord

thanks for the info i have decided to keep him on raw feed . as i get more clued up on sourcing cheaper food it will work out fine im sure. just delighted to get him sorted, i did try him with a bit of boiled chicken after a few weeks of being alright but the next day he was runny again so chicken is off the menu

david75

the raw chicken thing...is it ok to give to a 4 month old puppy? bones and all?

Wibbs

FWIW I did and continue to do so. I'd say it might depend on the breed though? IE smaller toy dogs with reduced muzzles might have issues?

david75

He's a boxer pup. Big but still with baby teeth. He's been gnawing a lamb shank bone all day but I'm just worried about chicken bone splinters.

DogsFirst

david75 wrote: »

He's a boxer pup. Big but still with baby teeth. He's been gnawing a lamb shank bone all day but I'm just worried about chicken bone splinters.

Flat faced dogs can eat chicken bones no problem but you need to take a few precautions. You can get yourself a big cleaver and chop them up so they go down. Smash them with a mallet first to help with bones. Boxers might have a problem with whole carcass due to lack of key tearing teeth.

Give your boxer rib bones for a the tooth brush chew. They can only gnaw the ends, getting little bits off, and wont swallow large lumps

Beth

david75 wrote: »

the raw chicken thing...is it ok to give to a 4 month old puppy? bones and all?

Yes, perfectly fine. Also helps with the need to chew while they are going through teething. Great to have a tired puppy afterwards because it does really tire them out.

A toy puppy (mine) eating a chicken drumstick. It was her first foray in to the world of raw foods but she managed and slept for most of the night afterwards.
http://youtu.be/8UDjWWrMNgc

Wibbs wrote: »

FWIW I did and continue to do so. I'd say it might depend on the breed though? IE smaller toy dogs with reduced muzzles might have issues?

Lots of people with toy dogs (regardless of the shape of the muzzle) worry about giving the dogs raw food like chicken wings, drumsticks, carcasses and so on. The dogs have teeth and can use them just as well as bigger dogs. It takes them a little longer but they manage perfectly fine.

DogsFirst

Great stuff.

Wibbs

Beth wrote: »

Lots of people with toy dogs (regardless of the shape of the muzzle) worry about giving the dogs raw food like chicken wings, drumsticks, carcasses and so on. The dogs have teeth and can use them just as well as bigger dogs. It takes them a little longer but they manage perfectly fine.

Actually thinking about it more, as you said a smaller dog will take longer to chew something like a drumstick, where a bigger pup/dog might bolt it down without chewing enough. I found that with my guy and chicken wings, he really bolts them down. Couple of seconds type timeframe. He's actually vomited a couple up and they were pretty much complete. The small "finger bones" of the wing were intact. That concerned me, so now he only gets the bigger bone chicken parts and more lamb that force him to take his time. Just in case.

DogsFirst

Spot on there. The only impaction case that I can first hand say was due to a raw bone meal was from a lab that was fed well over a kilo of necks. While they're perfect from smaller dogs they might be a problem for wolfers. My girl (she X collie) has no problem but she takes it handy because she's a lady!

It's a fine balance with the wolfers really and each to their own. I think whole fresh carcass are great. These necessitate a good chew. As do rib bones. I would be careful of the larger weight bearing bones though. They're much harder and will break teeth if they are the only things supplied. Also, have you seen the size of a turkey neck??!!! Major difference here. Best bone: lamb necks. Dirt cheap - free and perfect for a bone meal, nice and meaty. Also find a meat factory outlet and pick up some oxtails. These are brilliant. Huge mind, expensive sometimes, but meaty, gristley and boney. Get 'em chopped. Great stuff.

Myles45

Hi Dogsfirst,

Very interesting thread this. I've actually just posted the following question as a new thread & wonder if you could perhaps help as I would also be very interested in weening them both onto a fresh diet but am not sure what I would need to use to suit each dog as obviously their needs would be different:

Myles45 wrote: »

Hi,
Does anyone have any suggestions for a dry diabetic dog food.

Our 11 yr old Cairn Terrier has recently been diagnosed with diabetes & we're looking for an alternative food for him. He's always been on Bakers (which I now discover after doing a bit of research seems to be a bit C**p, although until now he has always been extremely fit & healthy with a fantastic coat etc.) We're currently mixing in Whites Senior which smells quite fishy & to be honest I don't think he's over keen.

I've done a good bit of searching regarding dry dog foods & the more I look the more confused I get.

At the same time we have a new 12 week puppy (Hungarian Wire-haired Vizsla) who we are also weening off skinners & trying with Whites Puppy, he likes it all right but is having very soft stools at the moment so not sure whether to just stick to the Skinners or not?

Any advice much appreciated on both counts

Regards

DogsFirst

Myles45 wrote: »

Hi Dogsfirst,

Does anyone have any suggestions for a dry diabetic dog food.

Our 11 yr old Cairn Terrier has recently been diagnosed with diabetes & we're looking for an alternative food for him. He's always been on Bakers (which I now discover after doing a bit of research seems to be a bit C**p, although until now he has always been extremely fit & healthy with a fantastic coat etc.) We're currently mixing in Whites Senior which smells quite fishy & to be honest I don't think he's over keen.

I've done a good bit of searching regarding dry dog foods & the more I look the more confused I get.

At the same time we have a new 12 week puppy (Hungarian Wire-haired Vizsla) who we are also weening off skinners & trying with Whites Puppy, he likes it all right but is having very soft stools at the moment so not sure whether to just stick to the Skinners or not?

Any advice much appreciated on both counts

Diabetes
Dogs don't need carbohydrates, they're not used to eating them. While they can digest them and use them, the current levels of 50-60% carbohydrate (from zero historically) are hugely excessive.

As carnivores dogs have no amylase in their saliva (an enzyme that humans as omnivores have which starts the starch/carb breakdown in the mouth), the carnivorous pancreas is left to produce all the amylase to breakdown this carbohydrate laden meal. Once the carbohydrate is broken down and converted into sugar (glucose is the end product of all dietary carbohydrate) the pancreas then has the awesome workload of producing enough insulin to balance the blood sugar levels. With these two recent and obviously massive stresses we are seeing diabetes multiplying by 3.4 in the last 20 years and pancreatitis 25 times more likely in dogs than humans (the latter disease causes the dog to digest itself, probably the most painful end to your dog next to torsion). See previous posts for independent references on this point.

However there is no studies linking this carbohydrate load to these chronic issue today because the problem is exactly that, chronic. Manufacturers are required to test for only 6mths, little insufficiencies or excesses will appear in such a time scale. You can last 6mths with zero vitamin C in your diet, but imagine if it's you're just a little below RDA.......

Switching your dog from one dry food to the next, without getting rid of the high dose carbohydrate, is going to kill your dog from spiking blood sugar. If the pancreas is completely shot you will need to monitor his blood for with your vet while you switch to a suitable diet (see below). Any recommendation from a medical practitioner to feed such stuff as dry food, certainly to a diabetic, they will need to explain their reasoning to you.

With the correct diet (high protein, as little carb as possible, dogs make their own from protein in a process called glycogenesis, a special trait of carnivores) you settle his condition and it is entirely manageable, sometimes reversible (proven in cats so far, can't remember refs, google it, not much on dogs as most have been convinced carbs are OK for dogs, which they thought about cats too until 3 or 4 years ago).

So your dogs (both of them) need a varied diet of raw meat, cooked veg and raw meaty bones (70, 10, 20%, respectively). Depending on size, activity level, reproductive stage etc will vary the quantity, that's all (asides a few key things like pregnant bitches needing a bit more calcium etc).

Feed smaller meals (4 say) more regularly (same time every day).

If you feel the dog requires some carbohydrates (or worse still dry food) it is vital these are of lof Glycemic Load (different to Glycemic Index), which means they won't spike the blood sugar quickly, but there's absolutely no need.

Best of luck with it.

Léan

Just an update on this. He's been on Orijen a few weeks now and seems to like it, in the last few days his appetite has increased a good bit too which is great. I was a little bit worried he was under-eating before.

We have cut out milk completely at this stage, he has a bit of natural yogurt now and then (e.g. yesterday after he was car sick, poor fella ). Cheese is still in the equation as a treat though, he's mad for the stuff.

He loves eggs, so on cold mornings like this morning i make him scrambled agg minus the milk and he mops it back. He has also taken quite the liking to sardines, so he has 2 tins of those a week also.

I had forgotten i've an uncle who is a butcher so we stocked up on bones, our freezer is full with them. He gave us loads! We give him 1-2 big bones a week. He loves them, but also likes to burry them. Messy :rolleyes:

I bought a box of chicken legs this evening, so i'm going to try him on a raw one in a bit and see how that goes down. Updates will ensue!


Thanks to everyone again for all the advice.

DogsFirst

That's some effort Lean, fair play!! The lucky dog!

Léan

The chicken leg went down well. At first he was very suspicious, he didn't know what to do with it. He had a few licks and then he was sold, the thing was gone in about 5 minutes! He loved it!





Of course no other spot would do him then under the Christmas tree :rolleyes:.

So in general it went down really well and i've given him more since which he has loved

The only issue is that I live at home and my mother is not so happy about raw food being around. I'm trying to get around her

DogsFirst

Léan wrote: »

The chicken leg went down well. At first he was very suspicious, he didn't know what to do with it. He had a few licks and then he was sold, the thing was gone in about 5 minutes! He loved it!





Of course no other spot would do him then under the Christmas tree :rolleyes:.

So in general it went down really well and i've given him more since which he has loved

The only issue is that I live at home and my mother is not so happy about raw food being around. I'm trying to get around her

Whoa whoa whoa Lean STOP!

I'm a big advocate for raw but if you don't put in some infection control someone's going to get sick. One in ten UK and Irish chickens have bacteria on them that'll lay you out. These can live for a period on your carpet. You have to be more careful.

Feed your dog separately using a bowl that you can wash afterwards. Preferably feed in a designated area. Wash all surfaces afterwards with anti bac.

Léan

Oh don't worry, it was all thoroughly washed down and hoovered afterwards! Was a total one off as I wanted to watch him eat it to see how'd he would get on. Don't worry! I'm not nuts Usually he is fed outside

tk123

Rather than start yet another food thread I hope it's ok to post this here(!) since the food I'm wondering about is similar to Orijen I've noticed that Taste of the Wild which is similar to but cheaper than Orijen is pretty the much the same price as the cereal free JWB I'm feeding my guy at the moment. I'm tempted to try it in the new year not that there's a problem with the JWB it's just the TOTW seems a better quality.
The JWB is 21% protein and TOTW is 32%.. am I right in saying that these are not really comparable because they're from different quality and sources of protein? Also the fact that the amount I feed is different - TOTW is looking to be about 100g less a day? RAW isn't an option at the moment for various reasons so it's dry for the time being with RAW treats as we have them - eg the wings off the chicken, liver, oily fish etc.

DogsFirst

tk123 wrote: »

Rather than start yet another food thread I hope it's ok to post this here(!) since the food I'm wondering about is similar to Orijen I've noticed that Taste of the Wild which is similar to but cheaper than Orijen is pretty the much the same price as the cereal free JWB I'm feeding my guy at the moment. I'm tempted to try it in the new year not that there's a problem with the JWB it's just the TOTW seems a better quality.
The JWB is 21% protein and TOTW is 32%.. am I right in saying that these are not really comparable because they're from different quality and sources of protein? Also the fact that the amount I feed is different - TOTW is looking to be about 100g less a day? RAW isn't an option at the moment for various reasons so it's dry for the time being with RAW treats as we have them - eg the wings off the chicken, liver, oily fish etc.

If totw contains 10% more protein (and hopefully some of it animal) and its the same price (AND gluten free) you're on to a winner!

Re protein "quality" doesn't matter which one you choose, left over bits and pieces, some animal some plant, the only difference is the bag. But more protein is certainly better.

Myles45

DogsFirst wrote: »

Diabetes
Dogs don't need carbohydrates, they're not used to eating them. While they can digest them and use them, the current levels of 50-60% carbohydrate (from zero historically) are hugely excessive.

As carnivores dogs have no amylase in their saliva (an enzyme that humans as omnivores have which starts the starch/carb breakdown in the mouth), the carnivorous pancreas is left to produce all the amylase to breakdown this carbohydrate laden meal. Once the carbohydrate is broken down and converted into sugar (glucose is the end product of all dietary carbohydrate) the pancreas then has the awesome workload of producing enough insulin to balance the blood sugar levels. With these two recent and obviously massive stresses we are seeing diabetes multiplying by 3.4 in the last 20 years and pancreatitis 25 times more likely in dogs than humans (the latter disease causes the dog to digest itself, probably the most painful end to your dog next to torsion). See previous posts for independent references on this point.

However there is no studies linking this carbohydrate load to these chronic issue today because the problem is exactly that, chronic. Manufacturers are required to test for only 6mths, little insufficiencies or excesses will appear in such a time scale. You can last 6mths with zero vitamin C in your diet, but imagine if it's you're just a little below RDA.......

Switching your dog from one dry food to the next, without getting rid of the high dose carbohydrate, is going to kill your dog from spiking blood sugar. If the pancreas is completely shot you will need to monitor his blood for with your vet while you switch to a suitable diet (see below). Any recommendation from a medical practitioner to feed such stuff as dry food, certainly to a diabetic, they will need to explain their reasoning to you.

With the correct diet (high protein, as little carb as possible, dogs make their own from protein in a process called glycogenesis, a special trait of carnivores) you settle his condition and it is entirely manageable, sometimes reversible (proven in cats so far, can't remember refs, google it, not much on dogs as most have been convinced carbs are OK for dogs, which they thought about cats too until 3 or 4 years ago).

So your dogs (both of them) need a varied diet of raw meat, cooked veg and raw meaty bones (70, 10, 20%, respectively). Depending on size, activity level, reproductive stage etc will vary the quantity, that's all (asides a few key things like pregnant bitches needing a bit more calcium etc).

Feed smaller meals (4 say) more regularly (same time every day).

If you feel the dog requires some carbohydrates (or worse still dry food) it is vital these are of lof Glycemic Load (different to Glycemic Index), which means they won't spike the blood sugar quickly, but there's absolutely no need.

Best of luck with it.

Thanks for that Dogs First.

I now have a few more questions & can give you a little more info on our current state of affairs with both of our dogs.

Firstly & most urgently, our Vizsla, Chester (15 weeks) Started life with the breeder in UK on a dry vet mix & was weaned onto Skinners Puppy which he was on when we collected him at 12 weeks, his stools have always been on the soft side. Initially we put this down to stress from travel, change of home, water etc. after a week we were running low on skinners & we thought we'd try Whites Puppy (Skinners not readily available here) as the ingredients seemed to be fairly good (for a dry food). After 2nd week stools still soft, by which time we started giving him Diagel to try to firm up & with slight improvement initially, by the end of the week they were softening again & there were very faint traces of blood in them. Off we went to the vets who gave him one shot of antibiotic & a shot of Kaolin + a days worth for us to administer. Over next 2-3 days, great improvement, great consistency stools, We had also started giving him 2 eggs scrambled with a little milk for breakfast on advise of breeder & also giving a teaspoon of Kaolin in each meal. but then slowly stools reverted to soft again (despite Kaolin). Finally we tried further change to Red Mills Winner Puppy food, cut out milk in scrambled eggs & started adding pro biotic goats milk yoghurt. Still no improvement & spots of blood again now in stools. Xmas eve was first time he had poo'd in his crate over night. So having considered changing to fresh food we thought now must be the time. I have to say that during this whole time he has been as lively & full of beans as is possible & shows no other signs of illness, lethargy or anything else other than wanting to drink a fair bit come evening times. Since Xmas Eve he's been on raw chicken breast & rice with yoghurt & Kaolin for first day. With almost instant improvement over the day to firm stools, so stopped Kaolin next day & stools slowly again reverted to soft so tried cooking chicken to see if that would help, but no success so far.

We are at a loss as to what to do next & to find out what the problem is. I can only think that maybe we are not sticking with anything long enough & maybe the constant changes are what has upset his system? Should we go back to raw chick & rice & slowly mix in a first batch of fresh as per your recipe or what would you suggest?


With regards to the Recipe: Is Turkey OK instead of chicken? Are canned Sardines/Salmon/Tuna in oil OK instead of fresh? Do you include Kelp powder & brewers yeast (Can only find these in tablet form, is that OK?) or just one (same for essential oils, & are they the same essential oils you get from Health shops? Seems an awful large amount of concentrated oil? Anywhere to buy them cheaper?
Finally, being that he's obviously still in house & obedience training etc, what is best substitute for kibble treats when training? He seems to like small bits of raw carrot which we also give to the Diabetic Cairn but he doesn't seem to be digesting them very well & wonder if there's anything better?


OK, so now onto Reggie the Cairn. You mentioned about the vet monitoring his blood sugar if we were to change him to fresh diet, well we actually do that ourselves currently with a Glucometer. He's currently back on the Bakers having expressed a dislike to the Whites senior.. His routine is the same every day, i.e. up in morning- 1 mile walk - blood test - food - insulin - lounge about - evening, same again. He's on 10 iu Caninsulin twice a day & his blood sugar levels are a bit erratic but generally around 12 - 20 mmol pre food & insulin in the morning & then between 5 - 10 pre food in evening. I've had to give him Glucose on two occasions when he's been at around 2.4 not sure what reason was though.

We've this week started to introduce Bakers senior as it has slightly less fat content. temporarily till we convert to fresh. He is slightly over weight at the moment (9.8Kg) but eats very little approx 170g per day + few very small bits of carrot as treats.

So question here is how do we convert safely? I presume just add little more fresh each day over about a week until no bakers & all fresh? Or would this send blood sugar haywire, should it be done more slowly?

Apologies for huge post:o, plus similar one I emailed to you on Xmas eve:eek:, but may as well cover all me questions in one go

Regards Myles

Happy New Year to all

DogsFirst

Sorry for all the bold, doesn't look great, too lazy to change



Vizsla, Chester (15 weeks) his stools have always been on the soft side.... we started giving him Diagel to try to firm up & with slight improvement initially, by the end of the week they were softening again & there were very faint traces of blood in them. Off we went to the vets who gave him one shot of antibiotic & a shot of Kaolin + a days worth for us to administer. Over next 2-3 days, great improvement, great consistency stools.....

Dietary intolerance, stools should be relatively firm (and small). Likely due to gluten intolerance but could also be cooked protein (hence dogs allergic to beef or chicken), plant protein (doesn't digest completely) or one of the many chemical food additives known to induce sensitivity if fed every day. The blood is the lining of the intestines breaking down (blood vessels very close to surface of gut for absorbtion). Often accompanied, or at least preceded by mucous around the stool. Your vet has recommended the usual antibiotics and firming / drying agents but has not tackled the problem which is the antigens in his food. It will be steroids next to shut down the failing immune system, a catastrophic cycle. These antigens need to be removed.


I have to say that during this whole time he has been as lively & full of beans as is possible & shows no other signs of illness, lethargy or anything else other than wanting to drink a fair bit come evening times.

Normal to keep up spirits while this is going on, little tigers! Put half a tsp of sugar and a pinch of salt in his water when this diarrhoea occurs, balances electrolytes, saves on expensive sachets from vets


We are at a loss as to what to do next & to find out what the problem is. I can only think that maybe we are not sticking with anything long enough & maybe the constant changes are what has upset his system? Should we go back to raw chick & rice & slowly mix in a first batch of fresh

You're right about all the changing of foods. A dietary intolerance can be relatively instant, that day or a week after the food was ingested (hence almost impossible for a vet, with a snapshot of a condition, do diagnose). You need to pick and settle. Mix mightn't be working as the pup may already have a problem with chicken from being fed highly processed chicken in dry food (hence dogs allergic to chicken and beef). If this is the case cooking probably won't help.

Lets guess that the pup is having a problem keeping anything down, regardless of source. His intestinal tract has been roughed upo, the mucous membranes are in dissarray, the microflora have all been destroyed by antibiotics and his immune system is in over drive. It is no wonder a dog will continue to show the signs of dietary intolerance awhile after the antigen has been removed, confusing everything.


With regards to the Recipe: Is Turkey OK instead of chicken? Are canned Sardines/Salmon/Tuna in oil OK instead of fresh?

Lets guess chicken is the problem for the moment. Turkey is now an excellent idea. First off it is new to your pup's system so won't cause a reaction straight off. Second it is natural, his system will like it. Another great starter is oily fish, the omega 3 in it will stabilise his immune system (so if going with turkey aim to include fish oil after a week of settling the pup). Sardines from can fine. Do not use ones stored in veg oil. Tuna is relatively useless in this respect as very little omega 3, good protein though. You may need to keep the pup on something incredibly plain, like pure scrambled egg for four or five days to purge the system. After this period add a little boiled rice. The pup will pick up anti oxidants on his walks.

You then set about including one ingredient at a time - first the turkey. Raw. Include bones (thighs or legs, whatever, smash with mallet if necessary for little pups). Then test one ingredient a week. Testing chicken last. Keep diary of poos. But do all of it slowly.

Feel free to use drying agents while stabilising the pup on your scrambled egg etc. Add a little chamomile which is excellent for mucous membrance regrowth. Any form, get from health shops. Do google search of other herbs that may be useful during this period.

Do you include Kelp powder & brewers yeast (Can only find these in tablet form, is that OK?) or just one (same for essential oils, & are they the same essential oils you get from Health shops?

Kelp / brewers are excellent, vitamin packed etc. Make sure gluten free. No need for essential oils if on fresh food which is packed with goodies like fresh protein and great oils etc. Leave them to the dry fed dogs with crispy dry coats. And the less oil the better for your dogs dodgy system (bar safflower oil plant oils are high in omega 6, this unsettles the omega 3 & 6 balance which is really important but doesn't matter right now). Cheapest source is fine, so internet definitely best in this regard. Some are available in Lidl, like fish oil.


Finally, being that he's obviously still in house & obedience training etc, what is best substitute for kibble treats when training? He seems to like small bits of raw carrot which we also give to the Diabetic Cairn but he doesn't seem to be digesting them very well & wonder if there's anything better?

Gluten free sausages, which is many brands. Buy cheapest in bulk from supermarket. Cook in oven. Chop into discs and store in little freezer bags. Best treats hands down. Avoid fatty cheese in your pups delicate system.


OK, so now onto Reggie the Cairn. ]So question here is how do we convert safely? I presume just add little more fresh each day over about a week until no bakers & all fresh? Or would this send blood sugar haywire, should it be done more slowly?

Get his off dry asap. It has been unforgivably poor advice from your vet to maintain a diabetic on a carbohydrate loaded meal. This needs to be discussed with them. Ask them why they think this and your thoughts on a fresh high protein diet instead in case there is something else going on. In my opinion he needs a diet loaded with fresh meat and zero carbs, so very little insulin blood sugar work for his pancreas to do. Do a google search for the problem in dogs, all authorities appear to agree, asides parties pushing dry food. Move him over 5% a day. Feed smaller meals more regularly. Chose veg that have low GL (see above post). Monitor sugars for first while but hopefully these will stabilise.

Apologies for huge post:o, plus similar one I emailed to you on Xmas eve

Apologies, received your emails but was kind of banned from taking the laptop for the last few days!!!! Hate seeing a dog suffering and being restricted like this.


Happy New Year to all
[/QUOTE]

Happy new year to you, let us all know how they both get on, it encourages everyone else to make the change. Best of luck. Any problems, post (but maybe one at a time!)

Myles45

Hi Dogs first, thanks again for all the advice. Just a quick update now for you.

By the time I'd actually got the last reply, we'd put the Vizsla puppy back onto rice & raw chicken & then gradually added your raw recipe from the website (minus the bones-see note below) & over the xmas week his stools started to improve & he was onto full raw mix from the end of last week with no further problems . He's eating about 220g per day over 3 meals (based on 3% body weight per day) & steadily putting on weight, although he always seems ravenous for food like he's been starved!! Should we be giving him more? I get the feeling he'd eat as much as we'd give him so don't want to over do it.

Note: I made up your recipe using just meat & not bones, partly as I thought it may be easier on the puppy's stomach, what with probs we were having, & also didn't have a mincer so chopped all by hand (no probs, I used to be a chef ) I was just wondering how you go about mincing the meat with bones?? do the bones not just clog up the mincer?

I'll be making another batch up next week so would like to know how best to attack it. Thinking of getting chicken carcasses etc from local butcher if I can.

We also tried both dogs yesterday with a raw drumstick each. I thought it may be best to leave them whole rather than smash with hammer so they would have to chew them up.. Cairn did a bit of crunching & took a couple of minutes but Chester the greedy bugger chewed for about a minute & just as I was about to grab the end of the drumstick (it was disappearing quickly) down it went ...whole!! We are now waiting for him to pass it.... 24hrs. no sign yet. Any suggestions on this & if it's ok or what we should do next time?


Reggie the Cairn is doing well now & is also on fresh only. His blood sugar levels are slowly dropping (9 - 15mmol morning & 4 - 10 evening on average. I'm just wondering about the rice in the mix though, as I think from what I can establish that it has a fairly high glycemic load. Would I be better to make a separate mix for him without the rice, or could I use something else instead that would suit them both?

I would ideally like to reduce the insulin (9 - 10 iu twice a day at present) if I can get his blood sugar down .

p.s. I could only find sardines in oil, brine or tomato sauce. So I got oil as I thought that would be preferable to high salt in brine. drained oil out before adding to mix. Is that ok?

Thanks
Myles

DogsFirst

over the xmas week his stools started to improve

great news!! delighted for him

220g per day over 3 meals (based on 3% body weight per day) & steadily putting on weight, although he always seems ravenous for food like he's been starved!!

220g seems a bit small, especially for a growning viz. Up it a bit, thing about the excellent high protein diet you're giving him is if he doesn't need it he will wee it out to absolutely no stress on his carnivorous system. So yeah, whack it up 30%! Growing pups need so much energy it's hard to give a figure, like kids. See what happens. Lean is infinitely better than over weight, but its hard to see them hungry. He's getting his appetite back so he will be more ravenous anyway.

I thought it may be easier on the puppy's stomach, what with probs we were having,

Think thats a good call. Now that he's back in action though, get the chicken bones in there. So much cartilidge in there which is absolutely vital to your growing viz's joints. He's ready for them. Big mouth. Supervise intitally in case he pigs out. Start with lamb necks. He won't be able to swallow whole. Or beef ribs, not much meat but a good work out.

I was just wondering how you go about mincing the meat with bones?? do the bones not just clog up the mincer?

wouldn't mince (except for 3-6wk old pup with no teeth!). Chicken frames / thighs / drums / necks / frames and whole fish (from frozen).


no sign yet.

no sign because dogs bones are designed to melt that stuff down in a flash!! Ph1 of in stomach is like battery acid, reducing fresh bone to chyme in an hour so they don't puncture intestines. The only time you'll see bone fragments in poo is if they are cooked, or say you fed a bucket of wings which over loaded the gut, or he swallowed large lumps of cow leg bone (v hard stuff). So don't stress, let him at it.

That said hungry dogs wolfing a bone down is probably best avoided. Up the bone size as rec above to keep him munching. Once diet under control he can do what he wants.

I'm just wondering about the rice in the mix though, as I think from what I can establish that it has a fairly high glycemic load.

Absolutely, get rid of the rice. Oats are slower release, or quinoa (expensive), but no need if watching blood sugar

p.s. I could only find sardines in oil, brine or tomato sauce. So I got oil as I thought that would be preferable to high salt in brine. drained oil out before adding to mix. Is that ok?

Ha!! Actually I think I'd probably avoid the veg oil, absolutely nothing good to be said for it in dogs. People say "its good for the coat" but fresh fed dogs have incredible coats with already good oils present so no need. Their bad side comes from the fact that veg oil is too high in omega 6 which throws teh whole omega 3:6 ratio out of sync....leading to immuno disorder (and worsening things like his stomach upset if it's allergy related). Best use brine (drained) or tomato sauce (drained).

If looking to add oils later on use a half tsp of safflower (brilliant stuff, packed with the right stuff) or maybe a little primrose, but that's all. Really no need on the stuff you're feeding. 40% of the protein your dog eats goes towards his coat and skin (renewed so often) so dogs on high protein diets have power coats. It's funny when you walk around the shows and see all the breeders feeding dry food to their contenders, they start to look like old Florida women that have been in the sun too long. Thin dry crispy coats. Leave the veg oil to them!!


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