Orijen dog food.

Léan

Hi
Our pup is coming to the end of his Vet Essentials Puppy Food. When we adopted him we were given this food (along with some tinned food) and now we're nearly finished the bag i'm thinking of changing.

He doesn't seem to like it much at all and seems to only eat it as a last resort. He was given two tins of dog food a day along with the vet essentials in his foster home. He LOVES tinned food, but it was pedigree we were given when we got him (which I know is muck) and now that it's finished I want to ween him off it and stick to dry food.

I have been looking at Orijen dog food because it seems to have a very high meat content and no grains, no meat derivatives. It is expensive though so I'm wondering does anyone have any experiences of it? Good/bad etc... Or even a better alternative.

Thanks

PriceWatch

We have both our cockers on orijen and they are doing great on it. Both have beutiful coats since going on it and the one that suffered constantly from tummy problems is doing great. It is expensive but you dont need to feed them as much as other dry foods.

SlimCi

My pup was the same when I got him, had been fed on tins. He seems to have a bit of a delicate tummy but no matter what dry complete food I buy him, hes not too bothered about it and will really only eat it if he has to! However I find if I add just a couple of tablespoons of our dinner through it or some gravy or something, he will wolf it down! Have to say I don't blame him! Having said that he's now 21 kgs at 6 months so hasn't been starving lol. I have tried him on Wafcol which he was ok with but was quite expensive and now we're trying James Wellbeloved which seems to be giving less poos and better formed ones (tmi sorry). I think it may not be necessary to feed such an expensive food to get a good quality food iykwim. There is great advice on here about good quality foods...:D

Cocolola

Hi OP. I adopted my dog Ollie over a year ago when he was around a year old. He was fairly skinny when I got him. He'd been on Pedigree too as far as I know. I put him on Orijen and straight away he started to put on the weight at a nice steady pace. He wasn't too keen on the fish one but he took quite well to the original flavour. Everyone comments on how soft and shiny his coat is and he's been doing great on it. Lots of energy and his poos are good (as good as poos can be I guess ). We have two other fussy eaters in our house and they are obsessed with the stuff.

And while the cost of a bag may seem high it's genuinely cheaper than the what appear to be, cheaper brands. I buy a 7 kg bag from zooplus.co.uk for around €40 and that lasts him 3 months so that works out at about €0.40 a day which is a heck of a lot cheaper than Pedigree and the like. Ollie is only 11 kg though but it still would be cheaper for any dog. As PriceWatch pointed out, you don't need to feed as much as you would think because it's such high quality.

This post is a great excuse to show him off (:o I am stone mad about him) so I'll include a link to a quick photo set I put together. The first two pics are the day I brought him home from the rescue and the rest are how he turned out, all thanks to Orijen of course just kidding!

Linky to photos

snollup

We had our fella on Orijen for a while and while he loved it we found it was a bit too high in protein. We now have him on Robbies. He loves it and seems to be thriving on it.

tazwaz

[QUOTE=Cocolola;75432311 This post is a great excuse to show him off (:o I am stone mad about him) so I'll include a link to a quick photo set I put together. The first two pics are the day I brought him home from the rescue and the rest are how he turned out, all thanks to Orijen of course just kidding!

Linky to photos[/QUOTE]

can see why you want to show him off...he is gorgeous

DogsFirst

Léan wrote: »

Hi
Our pup is coming to the end of his Vet Essentials Puppy Food. When we adopted him we were given this food (along with some tinned food) and now we're nearly finished the bag i'm thinking of changing.

He doesn't seem to like it much at all and seems to only eat it as a last resort. He was given two tins of dog food a day along with the vet essentials in his foster home. He LOVES tinned food, but it was pedigree we were given when we got him (which I know is muck) and now that it's finished I want to ween him off it and stick to dry food.

I have been looking at Orijen dog food because it seems to have a very high meat content and no grains, no meat derivatives. It is expensive though so I'm wondering does anyone have any experiences of it? Good/bad etc... Or even a better alternative.

Thanks

Of all the dry foods, Orijen is certainly up there among the best, having a high animal protein content. As a result of the better ingredients it is a fierce price. At at least €70 for 14kg you are paying €5 per kilo of dry food, and up to €10/kg! That is more expensive than free range chicken (€3.40/kg in Lidl) and good quality beef (€4/kg)!!

I think an incredible job has been done by the industry to convince you, the caring dog owner, that the cooked crackers you are forking out your hard earned cash for is better than a fresh fillet steak dinner for your carnivorous dog.

Re tinned food: you're right in thinking it's muck. It contains 4% meat. 4%?!! The rest is water and cereal made look like meat. The meat used is from the dodgiest of sources. The tins are cooked for 30mins. Studies have shown this reduces most of the vitamin content to the floor (reducing vitamin C to zero, pyroxidine by 89% and biotin by 50%, Hoffman La Rodue 1995). They cost 80c a can for that slush. A tin of sardines in lidl costs 40cents, contains more protein and is so far beyond a tin of dog food nutritionally, with all the vits and mins your doggys joints need to form strong and healthy.

You can guess by now I would recommend, for those that seek the best nutrition for their dog and are currently spending €5/kg on food to satisfy that need, to make it themselves. I am preparing the best food imaginable (30mins every 3weeks) for less than €2 per kg. If anyone needs the blueprints, just PM me. It's easy, the difference in the dogs is instantly noticeable (lush soft coat, no smell, smaller poos, great teeth, calm demeanor with excellent vitality) and is shown by groups such as Canine Health Concern that it will reduce your vet bills by up to 90% in the case of joint and skin issues. AND you get the smug satisfaction that comes with preparing your kids a good fresh meal. Which is nice!!:)

Hope this helps!!

DogsFirst

snollup wrote: »

We had our fella on Orijen for a while and while he loved it we found it was a bit too high in protein. We now have him on Robbies. He loves it and seems to be thriving on it.

The dog is an out and out carnivore. He can't have too much meat. This is a common myth that is floating about. Anyone that suggests it is so has absolutely no idea why it is so, simply that it is. I mean, how much protein did you feed to your kid yesterday? How much did you eat last week? Haven't a clue. Humans (and we're omnivores) can't even overdose on protein as it is not stored by the body, it is deaminated by the liver and rid harmlessly by the kidneys (though some bodybuilders have been known to go a bit far and develop issues, but we are none of us body builders!!).

It is not the quantity of protein but the quality. Cooked protein induces allergic responses as cooking deforms protein and makes it undigestible. Many guts don't like it then and you get gastro disorder. Also a dog can be sensitised to a protein by being fed the same food for 18mths or longer (as with complete diets). But an exact quantity of protein does not.

When you change dry foods you move away from one poor protein source to another. The dog may do well for a time, and I hope for life, but it was not a move from an exact quantity that did the trick. Dogs as carnivores do not require carbohydrates at all, at any stage of their life, they can make their own from protein (glycogenesis, clever carnivores) and their diet should therefore be at least 80% animal protein if at all possible. That they can exist on dry food is testament only to their endurance as a scavenging carnivore, not to the quality of the processed food you have chosen to feed.

Hope this helps!

DBB

Of all the dry foods, Orijen is certainly up there among the best, having a high animal protein content. As a result of the better ingredients it is a fierce price. At at least €70 for 14kg you are paying €5 per kilo of dry food, and up to €10/kg! That is more expensive than free range chicken (€3.40/kg in Lidl) and good quality beef (€4/kg)!!

I think an incredible job has been done by the industry to convince you, the caring dog owner, that the cooked crackers you are forking out your hard earned cash for is better than a fresh fillet steak dinner for your carnivorous dog.

Re tinned food: you're right in thinking it's muck. It contains 4% meat. 4%?!! The rest is water and cereal made look like meat. The meat used is from the dodgiest of sources. The tins are cooked for 30mins. Studies have shown this reduces most of the vitamin content to the floor (reducing vitamin C to zero, pyroxidine by 89% and biotin by 50%, Hoffman La Rodue 1995). They cost 80c a can for that slush. A tin of sardines in lidl costs 40cents, contains more protein and is so far beyond a tin of dog food nutritionally, with all the vits and mins your doggys joints need to form strong and healthy.

You can guess by now I would recommend, for those that seek the best nutrition for their dog and are currently spending €5/kg on food to satisfy that need, to make it themselves. I am preparing the best food imaginable (30mins every 3weeks) for less than €2 per kg. If anyone needs the blueprints, just PM me. It's easy, the difference in the dogs is instantly noticeable (lush soft coat, no smell, smaller poos, great teeth, calm demeanor with excellent vitality) and is shown by groups such as Canine Health Concern that it will reduce your vet bills by up to 90% in the case of joint and skin issues. AND you get the smug satisfaction that comes with preparing your kids a good fresh meal. Which is nice!!

^^^ this
Might just be one of the most sensible posts I've seen in a long time about commercial vs home-made food.
I am at a stage now where I cannot, hand on heart, recommend most (all?) of the commercial foods, even the ones everyone hails as being the best.
I think commercial foods are at the root of a lot of health problems and early-death in dogs, but food rarely gets the blame as the effects build insidiously over the (shortened) life of the dog.
It's home-made all the way here, the improved health and well-being of my older dogs, fed their whole lives on the best dry food money could buy, was quick and clear to see. And it feels really good to know exactly what you're putting into your dog!

Wibbs

DBB wrote: »

I think commercial foods are at the root of a lot of health problems and early-death in dogs, but food rarely gets the blame as the effects build insidiously over the (shortened) life of the dog.

+1000 and as Dogfirst has pointed out it's cheaper to feed them the better way. Never mind the obvious that dogs are carnivores so why are we feeding them glorified wheatabix dipped in rendered meat products? Worse we're being told that this is a good diet by vets and other experts who should know better. There's dietary advice I've heard and seen online that if it was a human nutritionist involved they'd be laughed out of it and even seen as a dangerous quackery.

The "too much protein" mantra seems bloody ridiculous to me. How anyone can state that with a straight face is beyond me. Do cats gets the same BS? I don't believe so. It's neither scientific, nor common sense. Then again if you're making dog food it makes perfect sense. "Oh I know, let's claim the most expensive ingredient is the one most harmful". :eek:

Add in some of the other well dubious guff like yearly vaccinations and the effects of neutering and the picture is complete and our pets are paying the price IMHO.

toadfly

Dogsfirst I have been thinking of changing for a while now, would you mind PMing me some info? Thanks so much.

Léan

Thanks for all the responses.

I'm well aware that it's better to get fresh meat and veg for a dog and I am trying my best with that regard.

I bought the Orijen the other day, so far so good, but I do supplement it a bit when I can e.g. mixing half a tin of tuna with the dried food. I have to be very careful what i give him as he is young and a lot seems to run through him. I know dogs need all the protein they can get, hence buying Orijen and not another food as it's 80% meat and 20% veg.

At the moment he gets some warm milk with eggs in the morning which he loves and later in the day some dried food with either fish or egg mixed in, or whatever is going in the house, chicken etc..

He isn't fond of veg at all but i'm trying. We don't eat a whole lot of meat in the house at all, but i'm looking buying mince and giving him that. Also befriending a butcher is on the list.

DogsFirst

I'd cut out the milk L, dogs lose the necessary enzymes (lactase etc, like 75% of humans) once out of puppy hood. Casein (the protein in milk) is particularly bad for doggies, blocking absorbtion in the gut. You mightn't notice it or you might (gastro-intestinal upset, farting, poor coat condition due to malabsorbtion, many lots of illness related to "lack of nutrient" issues including hyperactivity and agitation from a lack of Vit C and B complex), you normally only notice once the stuff is removed, like smoking and booze and coffee all the other good stuff!

Instead subsidise with low fat yoghurt (no lactose/casein to speak of, denatured by manufacturing process), great probiotics for intestinal tract, nice proteins. Or low fat cottage cheese (same, more protein).

No dogs really like veg and they aren't strictly necessary but cook them, chop/grind them and mix them in. Don't give him a choice. Like the kids!

If feeding any meat, aim for chicken instead of meat, cheap beef is too fatty and as a sole source of meat, not the greatest. Chicken drum/thigh/wing/neck/carcass is best (cartilidge feeds cartilidge, bone feeds bone etc). Or fish? Find a factory outlet and buy a heap of oily fish (makerel/herring/sardines) real cheap and freeze for at least 24hrs before feeding (destroys parasites, while dogs have evolved with all land animal parasites and deal flawlessly with ecoli, salmonella, septacemia, fish gut worms and their cysts can still pose a problem).

Good on ya though, with only 10% of dogs in Ireland and the UK getting fresh ingredients (compared to 30% - 50% in Australia) he's lucky to have a Mummy like you!

Chinasea

What form can I give my dog of probiotics - she has had so many antibiotics in the last year as she has had several very bad bouts of diarrhoea and vomiting since we got her when she was a puppy and we are at a loss as to why.

DogsFirst

Gastro-intestinal upset is a really common complaint and is the most common reason for people to move to a fresh, hypoallergenic diet. Moving to a fresh diet will fix the issue 90% of the time (please contact for references, away from files at moment).

I will need a little more information but your pup is dry fed and suffers "sensitivities". Your vet has moved you from one expensive processed food to another to no avail (after initial good response) and you are most likely feeding vet prescribed senitive foods with courses of antibiotics for his "sensitivities" / gastro disorder.

His food is causing the problem. Before loading him up with drugs you need to remove the offending allergen. Vets always have the plaster, never the cure. If he is continuously fed the allergen, the reactions in his gut cause the wrong bacteria to bloom, which the vet treats with antibiotics. These destroy all bacteria, to the serious detriment of your pup, certainly while young.

You need to remove all i) gluten (no more wheat or barley), ii) cooked protein (no more cooked, processed dry foods, iii) any synthetic chemical ingredients. These are the top 3 issues with gastro upset (diarrhoea/vomitting).

Ideally you need to move to a fresh diet. Whether you do or not is up to you but to rid of all symptoms before changing to any diet you must first starve the dog for 24hrs (to get everything out) and then feed a small meal of rice and chicken (white food), then stay on that food for a few days to cleanse the system. Then start introducing your fresh ingredients little by little. Slowly slowly catchy monkey!

The best probiotics you can give your dog are in the form of low fat pro-biotic yoghurt (which is most of them), couple of table spoons a day. Maybe a little chamomille (any form, great for stomach lining). You will also need to get some omega 3 in there to help sooth the skin layers (oily fish or capsules from Lidl, 3 a day depending).

Never ever feed any cereal (treats etc) during this process. Allergy is like being a little bit pregnant (think allergy to nuts).

Best of luck with it, if you need help putting together the food (30mins every 3wks) just PM me and I can send you what you need.

Hope this helps!

paultf

I wonder about Orijen.

I always want to get the best food for my dogs. Unfortunately I don't have the time to prepare/cook food.

At the moment my lot are on Burns which has about 60% rice and 20% meat. They like the food and seem to be doing OK. I wonder though would they do better on Orijen? I mean I seriously would consider switching over to a food like Orijen if I could understand/see the real benefits of such a food.

Is Orijen seriously the best dry food out there?

Wibbs

DogsFirst wrote: »

Your vet has moved you from one expensive processed food to another to no avail (after initial good response) and you are most likely feeding vet prescribed senitive foods with courses of antibiotics for his "sensitivities" / gastro disorder.

With one of my dogs a few years back I actually had a vet tell me that "dogs can't have allergic responses to food in the first year". He then went on to recommend all sorts of treatments and processed foods. Like a fool I went along with his advice on that and other matters. Cue big vet bills and a short lived dog Then again with the all pervasiveness of the Pedigree lifestyle and the like and the all too often IMHO non scientific vet and other "expert" advice I'm not surprised. Like I said before if this was in the realm of human medicine and nutrition too many would be laughed out of it as dangerous quacks.

But how does this change? Look at vaccinations. To get pet insurance(a new thing) you have to have the vaccinations yearly and up to date. To refuse to go along with this means no insurance. To refuse means few if any kennels or doggie day care places will take your dog. One hand feeds the other. Handy way of keeping vets in biz to boot. Is this best practice or even good science? It seems not. For at least two potential pathogens anyway http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/javma.2000.217.1021?cookieSet=1&journalCode=javma

Conclusion and Clinical Relevance—The high prevalence of adequate antibody responses (CPV, 95.1%; CDV, 97.6%) in this large population of dogs suggests that annual revaccination against CPV and CDV may not be necessary

This is from 11 years ago. Makes sense. How many measles/mumps/rubella/polio vaccinations has anyone here gotten? Once? Yet our dogs are subjected to repeated yearly vaccinations for life. Oh and regardless of breed and size and weight of dog they get the same dose. In my humble there's an awful lot of bullshít masquerading as science with our pets.

DogsFirst wrote: »

No dogs really like veg

Just on personal experience mind you, I'd take some issue with that. My last fella was mad for veg. Loved raw carrots, celery, peas, even salad, sometimes even finishing the greens before chowing down on the meat. The Linda McCartney of dogs.

Good on ya though, with only 10% of dogs in Ireland and the UK getting fresh ingredients (compared to 30% - 50% in Australia) he's lucky to have a Mummy like you!

+1000

Wibbs

paultf wrote: »

I wonder about Orijen.

I always want to get the best food for my dogs. Unfortunately I don't have the time to prepare/cook food.

At the moment my lot are on Burns which has about 60% rice and 20% meat. They like the food and seem to be doing OK. I wonder though would they do better on Orijen? I mean I seriously would consider switching over to a food like Orijen if I could understand/see the real benefits of such a food.

Is Orijen seriously the best dry food out there?

To quote DogsFirst;

DogsFirst wrote:

Of all the dry foods, Orijen is certainly up there among the best, having a high animal protein content. As a result of the better ingredients it is a fierce price. At at least €70 for 14kg you are paying €5 per kilo of dry food, and up to €10/kg! That is more expensive than free range chicken (€3.40/kg in Lidl) and good quality beef (€4/kg)!!

I think an incredible job has been done by the industry to convince you, the caring dog owner, that the cooked crackers you are forking out your hard earned cash for is better than a fresh fillet steak dinner for your carnivorous dog.

As for time to prepare, it takes little enough time to prepare a weekly meal plan on a Sunday afternoon. Half an hour tops and pretty much no one can't spare half an hour once a week. To be fair storage may be an issue if you're in an apartment, or have a small fridge, so that may well apply Paultf.

DogsFirst

Wibbs wrote: »

To quote DogsFirst;



As for time to prepare, it takes little enough time to prepare a weekly meal plan on a Sunday afternoon. Half an hour tops and pretty much no one can't spare half an hour once a week. To be fair storage may be an issue if you're in an apartment, or have a small fridge, so that may well apply Paultf.

You got there before me W. Absolutely. It is the convenience thing that has taken root in our whole society. It is what has Americans the way they are, with the UK and Ireland rapidly bringing up the (sizeable) rear. Time and money is the most common stated reason for obesity.

There was a great study where they gave 100 unemployed fatties free gym membership. After a week only say 50% of them were going. They asked them why? Transport. So the experimenters put on buses. The next week there was even less etc.

The old saying is if you have time to go to the petshop you have time to go to the butcher / abbatoir / fish factory / lidl. Preparing 3wks of food (piled into 5kg lunchboxes) takes 30mins and is really enjoyable, after the first few efforts! Keep a lunchbox in the fridge and one in the freezer and just spoon the stuff out each feed. Everyone has that sort of time and that's enough food for a 20kg dog for two weeks. Also when you cook stuff, put a bit extra in the pot for the dog.

And always record your expenses, it will drive you forward. The amount of people that contact me that are feeding their dogs cheaper than me....they know it's a constant irritation but they do it anyway! But it drives me to find chicken necks and carcasses once a month, butcher factory outlets (a lot around these days....), half price meats in Tesco (usually Saturday evenings).

Get inventive! All comes to all there is frozen dog meat products out there, UK products I see. Some are pretty crap with animal protein lower than most "good" dry foods, there's one with a good high meat content though. Very expensive mind but delivered to the door, eliminating even the need to pick it up. The days of actually going to the pet shop are fast disappearing with the emergence of online pet shops....by cutting out the retailer even with delivery it works out cheaper than getting your busy bum to the pet shop!

Hope this helps!

DogsFirst

paultf wrote: »

I wonder about Orijen.

I always want to get the best food for my dogs. Unfortunately I don't have the time to prepare/cook food.

At the moment my lot are on Burns which has about 60% rice and 20% meat. They like the food and seem to be doing OK. I wonder though would they do better on Orijen? I mean I seriously would consider switching over to a food like Orijen if I could understand/see the real benefits of such a food.

Is Orijen seriously the best dry food out there?

Is it the best stuff - it's certainly up there. There's a whole host of websites run by individuals (and thus heavy with bias) out there that rate dog foods (dogfoodadvisor.com, dogfoodanalysis.com, dogfoodreview.com, petfoodratings.com) some by review which is arguably better. Point is Orijen makes it near the top each time. Less chemicals, lots of "animal" protein etc.

The best dry food wouldn't be cooked and there are some out there. It's called cold pressing and I saw a few major pet stores stocking it about the place. Heated only to 40oC or something. So not bad. Other things to consider

- No Cereals (so no gluten / phytic acid)

- High in animal protein, ~80%, with no "meal" ingredients (twice cooked, fat removed, think bisto granules, so barely meat and often from very worrying sources)

- Low calcium (0.8% and below for larger breeds, which is 20% lower than the 1% Calcium as in most dry foods, calcium is high in dry food as they use ash (burnt bones) as their cheap way of getting many rarer minerals (magnesium, selenium) into the food except bone comes with a lot of calcium) and low phosphorus (0.67%, which is 15% lower than most dry foods, ash again)

- High natural vitamin content (better absorbed)

- Low salt

- No chemicals

Find something that fulfills these and you're on to a winner for a base for your dogs food. Then you can just lash a bit of fresh meat ingredients on top!

FlamingSox

Ours is on a mix of Orijen & Acana. She thrives on it - in great condition and lovely coat - vet commented on it just the other day. Occasionally have to substitute one or other for another brand if I haven't ordered in time e.g. Arden Grange. I order mine on zooplus.co.uk or zooplus.es (find it cheaper at the moment than .co.uk).

Léan

DogsFirst wrote: »

I'd cut out the milk L, dogs lose the necessary enzymes (lactase etc, like 75% of humans) once out of puppy hood. Casein (the protein in milk) is particularly bad for doggies, blocking absorbtion in the gut. You mightn't notice it or you might (gastro-intestinal upset, farting, poor coat condition due to malabsorbtion, many lots of illness related to "lack of nutrient" issues including hyperactivity and agitation from a lack of Vit C and B complex), you normally only notice once the stuff is removed, like smoking and booze and coffee all the other good stuff!

Instead subsidise with low fat yoghurt (no lactose/casein to speak of, denatured by manufacturing process), great probiotics for intestinal tract, nice proteins. Or low fat cottage cheese (same, more protein).

No dogs really like veg and they aren't strictly necessary but cook them, chop/grind them and mix them in. Don't give him a choice. Like the kids!

If feeding any meat, aim for chicken instead of meat, cheap beef is too fatty and as a sole source of meat, not the greatest. Chicken drum/thigh/wing/neck/carcass is best (cartilidge feeds cartilidge, bone feeds bone etc). Or fish? Find a factory outlet and buy a heap of oily fish (makerel/herring/sardines) real cheap and freeze for at least 24hrs before feeding (destroys parasites, while dogs have evolved with all land animal parasites and deal flawlessly with ecoli, salmonella, septacemia, fish gut worms and their cysts can still pose a problem).

Good on ya though, with only 10% of dogs in Ireland and the UK getting fresh ingredients (compared to 30% - 50% in Australia) he's lucky to have a Mummy like you!

Thanks for your advice!

He loves milk and yogurt, and cheese too strangely but we only use cheese as a treat . He's still very much a puppy, just 18 weeks but when he's older I will definitely subsidize milk for yogurt

Would chicken breasts be good too? They'd be easy to prepare, could just boil them and give them to him.

I'l try hiding in some vegetables in future too, whether he likes it or not!

Wibbs

Chicken is great I find and cheap and you don't need to cook it, just give it to them raw. easy peasy. Indeed never give a dog cooked chicken containing bones.

FlamingSox

Agree with Dogsfirst about cutting out the milk. When ours was a puppy we gave her lightly scrambled eggs with some cheese mixed in.

madon

I feed Orijen too. It is more expensive per bag to buy than most foods but you give smaller portions so it works out cheaper. I don't know if I can post where we buy it but mods can remove- we get it from www.petconnection.ie in Newry and they post to the republic we always get it within two days of ordering too.
It says on the Orijen web site that they use the nearest sourced whats in season meat- sometimes when I open a bag it smells very fishy other bags smell very beefy etc. That has to be a good sign!

FlamingSox

Hi Madon, I used pet connection a few times in the past - fast delivery. I mentioned above that I use zooplus.co.uk or more recently zooplus.es which I found much better value (at the moment)!! Should mention that I buy double packs when available. It works out c. 53 Euro per bag which is great value.

tk123

Encouraged by this thread I gave my retriever his first sample of raw food yesterday - a chicken wing I held it so he'd chew it slowly and he did - and loved it lol. Fast forward to my dad carving the chicken later on - looking back and foward between the chicken and the carved meat puzzled as to where the wing was!! :pac:

david75

so raw meat is ok/better to give puppies instead of cooked meat?

DogsFirst

Wibbs wrote: »

Chicken is great I find and cheap and you don't need to cook it, just give it to them raw. easy peasy. Indeed never give a dog cooked chicken containing bones.

+1 there. Dogs need raw meat. And just so everyone's clear, dogs need the bones too, chicken bones are best, just never cooked ones, think that's what you meant though, based on your previous posts.

DogsFirst

FlamingSox wrote: »

Hi Madon, I used pet connection a few times in the past - fast delivery. I mentioned above that I use zooplus.co.uk or more recently zooplus.es which I found much better value (at the moment)!! Should mention that I buy double packs when available. It works out c. 53 Euro per bag which is great value.

Hey great tip!

I don't think the mods mind you tipping us in the right direction when price is concerned, but would like clarity on that. Hey wibbs you listening?! Course you are......wibbs is always listening!.....

star-pants

DogsFirst wrote: »

I don't think the mods mind you tipping us in the right direction when price is concerned, but would like clarity on that. Hey wibbs you listening?! Course you are......wibbs is always listening!.....

If there's any issue with a post please use the report post function or PM a mod of the forum directly. We don't always get to read every single post so addressing the mods of the forum in a post isn't the best way to get our attention.
Also, not sure if you know but Wibbs (whilst a mod) isn't a mod of this forum.

With regards to the 'tip' - that type of post is allowed in context. If the poster hadn't been posting in this thread and just jumped in with 'hey you know what site is great??' we'd probably snip it if it's just advertising.
Please do not respond on thread - you can PM if there are further issues, I don't like to drag threads off-topic.

juniord

,i have a dog 18 months old who recently has shown to have allergies , i took him off dry food and i am currently feeding him with raw beef mince with boiled potatoes and various veg with a bit of fruit and raw bones he has improved no end . just wondering if this is a good enough diet for the long term

DogsFirst

juniord wrote: »

,i have a dog 18 months old who recently has shown to have allergies , i took him off dry food and i am currently feeding him with raw beef mince with boiled potatoes and various veg with a bit of fruit and raw bones he has improved no end . just wondering if this is a good enough diet for the long term

Sounds great! It is the ONLY diet for the longterm, for every dog out there, not just your poor little lad that's visibilly suffering. No surprise he's doing better. Good job.

Cheap mince is ok, bit fatty. Use more raw chicken (include the bones) and whole raw oily fish from frozen. 70%. Make sure you cook veg, 20%. Boil your spuds/rice in the left over veg water. 10% carbs.

juniord

i should have said he is showing allergic to chicken flaxseed oil triedeach one individually to confirm , i boil the veg and spuds together so two days food in half an hour , i am going to try and source green tripe, btw he is getting real good mince at the moment in the trial stage ,so its a bit pricey ,no vet bills so it balances out in the long run

DogsFirst

juniord wrote: »

i should have said he is showing allergic to chicken flaxseed oil triedeach one individually to confirm , i boil the veg and spuds together so two days food in half an hour , i am going to try and source green tripe, btw he is getting real good mince at the moment in the trial stage ,so its a bit pricey ,no vet bills so it balances out in the long run

Doubt its cooked chicken is the problem but possible. Use turkey instead. And whole oily fish, good omega 3s to bolster his shot immune system, skin and coat. Mince is fine but not too much. Cheap stuff is fine. Use lidl. Tripe is ok but not brilliant, do not reply solely upon it. Mix. Should be feeding him for 2.50/kg

juniord

thanks for the info i have decided to keep him on raw feed . as i get more clued up on sourcing cheaper food it will work out fine im sure. just delighted to get him sorted, i did try him with a bit of boiled chicken after a few weeks of being alright but the next day he was runny again so chicken is off the menu

david75

the raw chicken thing...is it ok to give to a 4 month old puppy? bones and all?

Wibbs

FWIW I did and continue to do so. I'd say it might depend on the breed though? IE smaller toy dogs with reduced muzzles might have issues?

david75

He's a boxer pup. Big but still with baby teeth. He's been gnawing a lamb shank bone all day but I'm just worried about chicken bone splinters.

DogsFirst

david75 wrote: »

He's a boxer pup. Big but still with baby teeth. He's been gnawing a lamb shank bone all day but I'm just worried about chicken bone splinters.

Flat faced dogs can eat chicken bones no problem but you need to take a few precautions. You can get yourself a big cleaver and chop them up so they go down. Smash them with a mallet first to help with bones. Boxers might have a problem with whole carcass due to lack of key tearing teeth.

Give your boxer rib bones for a the tooth brush chew. They can only gnaw the ends, getting little bits off, and wont swallow large lumps

Beth

david75 wrote: »

the raw chicken thing...is it ok to give to a 4 month old puppy? bones and all?

Yes, perfectly fine. Also helps with the need to chew while they are going through teething. Great to have a tired puppy afterwards because it does really tire them out.

A toy puppy (mine) eating a chicken drumstick. It was her first foray in to the world of raw foods but she managed and slept for most of the night afterwards.
http://youtu.be/8UDjWWrMNgc

Wibbs wrote: »

FWIW I did and continue to do so. I'd say it might depend on the breed though? IE smaller toy dogs with reduced muzzles might have issues?

Lots of people with toy dogs (regardless of the shape of the muzzle) worry about giving the dogs raw food like chicken wings, drumsticks, carcasses and so on. The dogs have teeth and can use them just as well as bigger dogs. It takes them a little longer but they manage perfectly fine.

DogsFirst

Great stuff.

Wibbs

Beth wrote: »

Lots of people with toy dogs (regardless of the shape of the muzzle) worry about giving the dogs raw food like chicken wings, drumsticks, carcasses and so on. The dogs have teeth and can use them just as well as bigger dogs. It takes them a little longer but they manage perfectly fine.

Actually thinking about it more, as you said a smaller dog will take longer to chew something like a drumstick, where a bigger pup/dog might bolt it down without chewing enough. I found that with my guy and chicken wings, he really bolts them down. Couple of seconds type timeframe. He's actually vomited a couple up and they were pretty much complete. The small "finger bones" of the wing were intact. That concerned me, so now he only gets the bigger bone chicken parts and more lamb that force him to take his time. Just in case.

DogsFirst

Spot on there. The only impaction case that I can first hand say was due to a raw bone meal was from a lab that was fed well over a kilo of necks. While they're perfect from smaller dogs they might be a problem for wolfers. My girl (she X collie) has no problem but she takes it handy because she's a lady!

It's a fine balance with the wolfers really and each to their own. I think whole fresh carcass are great. These necessitate a good chew. As do rib bones. I would be careful of the larger weight bearing bones though. They're much harder and will break teeth if they are the only things supplied. Also, have you seen the size of a turkey neck??!!! Major difference here. Best bone: lamb necks. Dirt cheap - free and perfect for a bone meal, nice and meaty. Also find a meat factory outlet and pick up some oxtails. These are brilliant. Huge mind, expensive sometimes, but meaty, gristley and boney. Get 'em chopped. Great stuff.

Myles45

Hi Dogsfirst,

Very interesting thread this. I've actually just posted the following question as a new thread & wonder if you could perhaps help as I would also be very interested in weening them both onto a fresh diet but am not sure what I would need to use to suit each dog as obviously their needs would be different:

Myles45 wrote: »

Hi,
Does anyone have any suggestions for a dry diabetic dog food.

Our 11 yr old Cairn Terrier has recently been diagnosed with diabetes & we're looking for an alternative food for him. He's always been on Bakers (which I now discover after doing a bit of research seems to be a bit C**p, although until now he has always been extremely fit & healthy with a fantastic coat etc.) We're currently mixing in Whites Senior which smells quite fishy & to be honest I don't think he's over keen.

I've done a good bit of searching regarding dry dog foods & the more I look the more confused I get.

At the same time we have a new 12 week puppy (Hungarian Wire-haired Vizsla) who we are also weening off skinners & trying with Whites Puppy, he likes it all right but is having very soft stools at the moment so not sure whether to just stick to the Skinners or not?

Any advice much appreciated on both counts

Regards

DogsFirst

Myles45 wrote: »

Hi Dogsfirst,

Does anyone have any suggestions for a dry diabetic dog food.

Our 11 yr old Cairn Terrier has recently been diagnosed with diabetes & we're looking for an alternative food for him. He's always been on Bakers (which I now discover after doing a bit of research seems to be a bit C**p, although until now he has always been extremely fit & healthy with a fantastic coat etc.) We're currently mixing in Whites Senior which smells quite fishy & to be honest I don't think he's over keen.

I've done a good bit of searching regarding dry dog foods & the more I look the more confused I get.

At the same time we have a new 12 week puppy (Hungarian Wire-haired Vizsla) who we are also weening off skinners & trying with Whites Puppy, he likes it all right but is having very soft stools at the moment so not sure whether to just stick to the Skinners or not?

Any advice much appreciated on both counts

Diabetes
Dogs don't need carbohydrates, they're not used to eating them. While they can digest them and use them, the current levels of 50-60% carbohydrate (from zero historically) are hugely excessive.

As carnivores dogs have no amylase in their saliva (an enzyme that humans as omnivores have which starts the starch/carb breakdown in the mouth), the carnivorous pancreas is left to produce all the amylase to breakdown this carbohydrate laden meal. Once the carbohydrate is broken down and converted into sugar (glucose is the end product of all dietary carbohydrate) the pancreas then has the awesome workload of producing enough insulin to balance the blood sugar levels. With these two recent and obviously massive stresses we are seeing diabetes multiplying by 3.4 in the last 20 years and pancreatitis 25 times more likely in dogs than humans (the latter disease causes the dog to digest itself, probably the most painful end to your dog next to torsion). See previous posts for independent references on this point.

However there is no studies linking this carbohydrate load to these chronic issue today because the problem is exactly that, chronic. Manufacturers are required to test for only 6mths, little insufficiencies or excesses will appear in such a time scale. You can last 6mths with zero vitamin C in your diet, but imagine if it's you're just a little below RDA.......

Switching your dog from one dry food to the next, without getting rid of the high dose carbohydrate, is going to kill your dog from spiking blood sugar. If the pancreas is completely shot you will need to monitor his blood for with your vet while you switch to a suitable diet (see below). Any recommendation from a medical practitioner to feed such stuff as dry food, certainly to a diabetic, they will need to explain their reasoning to you.

With the correct diet (high protein, as little carb as possible, dogs make their own from protein in a process called glycogenesis, a special trait of carnivores) you settle his condition and it is entirely manageable, sometimes reversible (proven in cats so far, can't remember refs, google it, not much on dogs as most have been convinced carbs are OK for dogs, which they thought about cats too until 3 or 4 years ago).

So your dogs (both of them) need a varied diet of raw meat, cooked veg and raw meaty bones (70, 10, 20%, respectively). Depending on size, activity level, reproductive stage etc will vary the quantity, that's all (asides a few key things like pregnant bitches needing a bit more calcium etc).

Feed smaller meals (4 say) more regularly (same time every day).

If you feel the dog requires some carbohydrates (or worse still dry food) it is vital these are of lof Glycemic Load (different to Glycemic Index), which means they won't spike the blood sugar quickly, but there's absolutely no need.

Best of luck with it.

Léan

Just an update on this. He's been on Orijen a few weeks now and seems to like it, in the last few days his appetite has increased a good bit too which is great. I was a little bit worried he was under-eating before.

We have cut out milk completely at this stage, he has a bit of natural yogurt now and then (e.g. yesterday after he was car sick, poor fella ). Cheese is still in the equation as a treat though, he's mad for the stuff.

He loves eggs, so on cold mornings like this morning i make him scrambled agg minus the milk and he mops it back. He has also taken quite the liking to sardines, so he has 2 tins of those a week also.

I had forgotten i've an uncle who is a butcher so we stocked up on bones, our freezer is full with them. He gave us loads! We give him 1-2 big bones a week. He loves them, but also likes to burry them. Messy :rolleyes:

I bought a box of chicken legs this evening, so i'm going to try him on a raw one in a bit and see how that goes down. Updates will ensue!


Thanks to everyone again for all the advice.

DogsFirst

That's some effort Lean, fair play!! The lucky dog!

Léan

The chicken leg went down well. At first he was very suspicious, he didn't know what to do with it. He had a few licks and then he was sold, the thing was gone in about 5 minutes! He loved it!





Of course no other spot would do him then under the Christmas tree :rolleyes:.

So in general it went down really well and i've given him more since which he has loved

The only issue is that I live at home and my mother is not so happy about raw food being around. I'm trying to get around her

DogsFirst

Léan wrote: »

The chicken leg went down well. At first he was very suspicious, he didn't know what to do with it. He had a few licks and then he was sold, the thing was gone in about 5 minutes! He loved it!





Of course no other spot would do him then under the Christmas tree :rolleyes:.

So in general it went down really well and i've given him more since which he has loved

The only issue is that I live at home and my mother is not so happy about raw food being around. I'm trying to get around her

Whoa whoa whoa Lean STOP!

I'm a big advocate for raw but if you don't put in some infection control someone's going to get sick. One in ten UK and Irish chickens have bacteria on them that'll lay you out. These can live for a period on your carpet. You have to be more careful.

Feed your dog separately using a bowl that you can wash afterwards. Preferably feed in a designated area. Wash all surfaces afterwards with anti bac.

Léan

Oh don't worry, it was all thoroughly washed down and hoovered afterwards! Was a total one off as I wanted to watch him eat it to see how'd he would get on. Don't worry! I'm not nuts Usually he is fed outside