Who thinks Sean Quinn is a great businessman now?

Gusser09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119962911#Comment_119962911

Not sure. The one thing about you would say for Seanie and Seanie Jnr is that at least they completed there sentence and didn't go on the run.

Stanley 1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119952196#Comment_119952196

Quinn may have had Prince Andrew over for dinner and got some PR advice about such a documentary, it was a disaster.

Stanley 1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119957716#Comment_119957716

He saw taking over Anglo, the Celtic Tiger bank, would make him the King businessman in Ireland and have little doubt he would have interfered with every loan they made and look for his Group to gain from same.

Fitzie and Drummer would be reporting direct to him on a daily basis and confidentiality would have been out the window.

Stanley 1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119960728#Comment_119960728

AIB got very uptight about losing their market share to Anglo, it had taken years to overhaul BoI and now here was Anglo cherry-picking their customers who in turn were creating an auction house for lendings, rates and what securities were to be held.

AIB got lax on their normal due diligence and suffered badly just as Anglo did, BoI survived better.

mazdamiatamx5

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119964129#Comment_119964129

I suspect you are right, that was his plan. The aforementioned Fingleton, who I am not defending except to point out that there have been investigations into him, though never associated with Quinn directly, wanted to set up a third banking force to rival AIB/BOI. Total delusions of grandeur. That's what Fingers & Quinn have in common. I suspect that the real reason Desmond's man Michael Walsh was on the INBS board, to give some credibility to his talk of third banking force etc.

I know I am getting off the main topic of the thread, but if INBS had stick to the knitting of being an ordinary building society they could still be around. If course that would have meant Fingers making do with a measly €150k a year which he obviously wasn't prepared to do.

mazdamiatamx5

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119960724#Comment_119960724

I admittedly wasn't previously aware of the Montenegro stuff from 2019, if that article is correct does look like there was some skulduggery afoot, but three years on he may be genuinely ill or incapable as he is well into his 80s. I am sceptical that he would have the pull to get four medical consultants on board and tell lies on his behalf (recent reports said he had gotten off the Central Bank inquiry due to reports from four different consultants), he never had that power and definitely doesn't now. They would be putting themselves at great professional risk.

Regarding the EY report, point taken that it was never publicly released, this was raised in the Dail before IIRC, but I would point out that the EY inquiry was commissioned by the post-Fingleton management installed by the government, so they had if anything a vested interest in investigating Fingleton and showing the government they were cleaning house. With regard to Bank A, D etc, I think you are thinking of the Nyberg report from 2011, where the banks and individuals weren't named. (They were in the Oireachtas inquiry in 2014/15). It was subsequently made clear that the institution referred to in Nyberg that was frequently attracting Central Bank attention and issues was Nationwide, I think Nyberg said as much in latter years.

dublin49

why was Quinns exposure to Anglo CFOs such a problem for Anglo when they discovered it,Secondly did Quinn accidentally link himself to the Lunney attack when he said and I paraphrase,"why didnt they go after the perpetrators rather than the man paying the money"

techman1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119959950#Comment_119959950

The regulator was clueless and didn't even understand the CFDs and the dire situation Quinn and the bank was in with this. He actually thought it was a good thing that Quinn had this big "investment" in Anglo . Sean Fitzpatrick and David Drumm at least understood immediately the huge danger of the Sean Quinn CFD position. We have a load of silly regulation in Ireland on social stuff , tobacco, alcohol , diversity etc etc but hopeless regulation of important stuff like banking (historically) , construction (self regulation) and this has cost us billions

Sleepy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119951194#Comment_119951194

His own actions prove he has money stashed away. No-one who didn't could afford to put such a high price on their own pride to walk away from a 500k a year role as an advisor.

boosabum

According to the documentary maker who was on radio yesterday evening....

Range rover he had was a loaner from the company, taken back after lunney attack

House is in kids name not his.

Not saying he doesn't have money stashed .

Hotblack Desiato

Hope he has his full contributory OAP to fall back on, so...

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119965826#Comment_119965826

The leading people in these industries + the ones making money don't want regulation (enforced external oversight) at all, they always argue they can "manage themselves" and "know best" + such regulation just gets in the way (despite evidence it is necessary!). The politcians listen to them and the people (in Ireland) seem largely fine with this carry on too untll it bites them on the bum (as it did with Quinn insurance, or indeed the mica and pyrite scandals or all the **** apartments constructed in the boom that were fire death traps).

Then they cry to government to "do something" and the universal patsy/mug the taxpayer to ride in and save the day because culprits are naturally nowhere to be found and money involved has disappeared in a "puff of smoke" (i.e. deep down the pocket of someones' trousers). You would get browned off + turn into a cynic watching it play out again and again over the years. ah well rant over lol!

redlough

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119967217#Comment_119967217

The regulator was put in place to stop people who thought they could "manage themselves" and stop them before it hit the wall. In the case of Ireland the regulator decided to ignore it after been told about it.

Not sure why you mention about pyrite and mica as nothing to do with financial services and a total different issue

In the case of the crash, Ireland had two option

1. Bail out the banks including Anglo and the billions of debt it had generated(including Quinn)
2. Let the banks fail

The decision was made to save the Banks but the issue was that the likes of Anglo lied about how big of a hole they had made at the time, so when the government finally unpicked it the cost was a lot higher than expected. Also too late to let them fail.

I don't know enough to say what would have happened if they let the bank fails, but needless to say you would walk up to a cash machine and nothing would come out.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119967499#Comment_119967499

They had the option of letting Anglo and Irish Nationwide fail. No one goes to the ATM to withdraw those funds.

Muahahaha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119967217#Comment_119967217

yeah this is so true, if I remember rightly at the time there was leaks that said the likes of David Drumm, Sean Fitzpatrick, etc saw the banking regulator Patrick Neary as just a gobsh1te who was to be played and manipulated and they did indeed play him like a fiddle. Neary may never have realised it but the reason he had that job was becasue he was incompetent, the bankers couldnt have chosen a more perfect regulator- for themselves. And the bankers at the time had a direct line to swash buckingly Charlie McCreevy who was perfectly in tune with their brand of yahoo capitalism and light tourch or even no touch regulation of it. Even during the Tiger Neary did prosecute one bank for financal transgressions in the millions but the fine he laid down was a paltry 50,000, the bankers were laughing it it thinking that we make that kind of money before lunchtime on a Monday. A fine that small gave them a green light for what came later.

Anyway I just finished the 3rd episode last night, must say it as a very well put together documentary so kudos to the maker. Though such a story could easily have been 5 or 6 episodes but he was probably constrained by what he could sell to RTE.

One thing that stood out to me in the doc was this constant victim mentality of Quinn (and his wife) becasue they are from rural Ireland and 'those people up in Dublin havent a clue'. It was like listening to a broken record, it was just constant Dublin bashing out of him without recognising that he gambled his own company away. But of course that wasnt Quinns fault, it was those people up in Dublin wot done it <rolleyes>

cuttingtimber22

I think the kindest we could be to Sean Quinn is that ‘he was a once successful businessman’.

fly_agaric

@redlough

Not sure why you mention about pyrite and mica as nothing to do with financial services and a total different issue

Sorry if tangent annoyed you but you could have ignored it!

I mentioned it as post I was responding to discussed "regulation" in general (particularly enforcement of it I think). "Regulation" on paper + laws written down and self management of it in practice is better than nothing (that was what was happening with our banks/finance industry IMO), but obviously less effective at preventing bad practices than external verifictions to check the paper rules are actually obeyed, and punishments meted out if not.

The post specifically mentioned the construction industry as another critical sector that has cost everyone in the whole country several absolute fortunes now because they have been allowed to self regulate. I don't think as much has changed there (yet) as in finance (there is as yet/was no "Troika" over the shoulder with powers of the purse, requiring Irish politicians literally whip the sector into line kicking and screaming, and they have deep pockets, powerful friends imo and are very big employers etc).

In the case of the crash, Ireland had two option

Bail out the banks including Anglo and the billions of debt it had generated(including Quinn)

Let the banks fail

The decision was made to save the Banks but the issue was that the likes of Anglo lied about how big of a hole they had made at the time, so when the government finally unpicked it the cost was a lot higher than expected. Also too late to let them fail.

I don't know enough to say what would have happened if they let the bank fails, but needless to say you would walk up to a cash machine and nothing would come out.

I think that is too black and white. I am not a finance expert but my feeling on that is several very "bad" banks around Europe were indeed allowed fail in the crisis. I think Anglo (which was not a "normal" aka "systemic" bank dispensing EUR20s daily to fairly ordinary people like me out of an ATM or holding savings of such people) should have been allowed to die.

The govt. should not have immediately jumped in feet first to guarantee it all unconditionally, which in practice could never be unwound and walked back once it had been announced by them.

redlough

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119967556#Comment_119967556

Hindsight is a luxury the government didn't have. I think they would of let both of them go to the wall if they knew how bad a f**king mess it was. But the banks lied to the government to save their own skins and everyone has been left with the mess afterwards. Yet how many of these people ended up in jail over it?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119967823#Comment_119967823

I just think the building issues deserve their own thread, not fired into a thread when it is totally irrelevant.

As far as I can see the option was that black or white. Let them fail or keep them afloat.

As I posted above, nobody was aware of how bad these banks had been run till it was too late. The plan was to bail out Anglo etc but then have the ability to sell them back like they are doing with BOI/AIB/etc.....Anglo lied so the government made the guarantee, then figured out Anglo lied but it was too late

Again the big question, why the hell did the regulator not know what was going on so they could advise the government? that is what was supposed to happen

redlough

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119967782#Comment_119967782

I think the comments of Dukes at the end of the shows was eye opening to say the least in terms of the attitude towards the Quinn family and people from the border area. Before that I did think it was a bit like us v them but I was actually amazed RTE allowed them to keep that comment in the show.

Ginger83

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119966463#Comment_119966463

Maybe so or he could be wandering around an empty cold house.

I think his ignorance got the better of him with the adviser role similar to a child throwing a tantrum for not getting their own way.

Sleepy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119968107#Comment_119968107

A broke man couldn't afford such a tantrum. Whether it's in the wife's name, the kids or even the grandkids' you can be sure Quinn has more than you'll earn in your lifetime stashed away.

He's a thug and should be in prison.

fly_agaric

@redlough

Hindsight is a luxury the government didn't have. I think they would of let both of them go to the wall if they knew how bad a f**king mess it was. But the banks lied to the government to save their own skins and everyone has been left with the mess afterwards. Yet how many of these people ended up in jail over it?

...

Again the big question, why the hell did the regulator not know what was going on so they could advise the government? that is what was supposed to happen

That's the thing. The regulator was asleep and letting the lads run "their" industry how they saw fit to make the most money possible (I'd agree with what Muahahaha posted in comment above in https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119967782/#Comment_119967782). The industry liked it, the govt./polticians were complicit in situation developing. That was of course the reason why they did not have a handle on how bad it could be.

I just don't agree that govt. had to do what they did with including Anglo as a snap "all or nothing" decision (first the bank "guarantee"/cheapest bailout ever, and then the nationalisation of the whole of Anglo later) for what was basically an Irish property investment/speculation vehicle rather than a "too big to fail" systemic bank. Am sure they knew that much about what Anglo Irish was, even if they didn't know how big the debts could get. Did they even talk to the ECB or the EU about any of it considering (as you say) they really hadn't a bulls notion how bad it was/could get? I am not maybe as well up on history as some posting here but don't think they did, they just went and did it. It was reckless.

@Muahahaha

Anyway I just finished the 3rd episode last night, must say it as a very well put together documentary so kudos to the maker. Though such a story could easily have been 5 or 6 episodes but he was probably constrained by what he could sell to RTE.

One thing that stood out to me in the doc was this constant victim mentality of Quinn (and his wife) becasue they are from rural Ireland and 'those people up in Dublin havent a clue'. It was like listening to a broken record, it was just constant Dublin bashing out of him without recognising that he gambled his own company away. But of course that wasnt Quinns fault, it was those people up in Dublin wot done it <rolleyes>

Yeah I watched it a few days ago myself. A great piece of work. As you said that came through very clearly (the victimhood + a lack of reflection really, at most he admitted he made some mistakes, but believes he has been punished unjustly and far too harshly for them and seemed very angry and bitter about it!!).

Ginger83

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119968166#Comment_119968166

A thug may be ott but I agree he should have served time for what he did.

mazdamiatamx5

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119967556#Comment_119967556

This keeps coming up. If Anglo and INBS were allowed to fail, why not AIB? They fucked up as badly. The former Chair of AIB had the cheek to say to the Oireachtas inquiry that it was all the fault of Anglo and INBS that AIB made too many bad commercial property loans, they were only following the others. Talk about passing the buck.

And when you say 'allowed to fail', what precisely do you mean? Burn the deposit holders? The bond holders? Both?

My own view, the guarantee should have been limited to deposit holders across all banks and building societies. But we are where we are. You or I weren't making the key decisions at the time. Easy to criticise in hindsight, and I'm no fan of FF (or FG either). If they didn't guarantee the bondholders, the situation could have been even worse, Ireland might have got a reputation among international investors as a country whose banking system can't be trusted and the economy might still be screwed even now.

Bobeagleburger

Quinn Bet made 2.2m profit last year. The money is flowing in.

oceanman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119968332#Comment_119968332

whatever you think of him, the man knows how to make money.

mazdamiatamx5

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119968510#Comment_119968510

Not difficult to make money in that sector due to lack of regulation. The government has finally announced plans to regulate gambling, but don't hold your breath. I used to spread bet, lost my ass (my own fault) if I took it up again, wouldn't go near Quinnbet. Stick with the tried and trusted operators, e.g Igindex.

mazdamiatamx5

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119968166#Comment_119968166

I hope you are not suggesting Mr Quinn is the mysterious Paymaster. In fact, Mr Quinn is on record as stating that he is not the Paymaster, doesn't even know who the Paymaster is, and condemns the activities associated with this person, while also, public spirited chap that he is, running down to the local parish priest's house to stick up for the Paymaster, who he doesn't know, has never met, and whose activities he condemns.

mazdamiatamx5

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119965683#Comment_119965683

"Why as Quinns exposure to Anglo CFD's such a problem for Anglo when they discovered it"

I would guess partially for selfish reasons as they didn't want him calling the shots, but also they had enough banking knowledge to know that as a bank and a PLC having one key shareholder would get them in trouble with regulator particularly as he seems to have amassed the shareholding in a rather surreptitious manner using the CFD's.

mazdamiatamx5

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119964202#Comment_119964202

AIB always had s.hite due diligence. As evidenced by the Insurance Corporation of Ireland debacle from the 1980s, the Rusnak/Allfirst forex scandal in 2002, the DIRT scandal (all banks implicated but AIB had largest settlement) in the late 1990s, foreign exchange overcharging issues from the early 2000s and most recently the mortgage tracker fine of €120m.

That's just from memory, I've probably forgotten a few.