Unusual 201 class photo.

BrianD

ardmacha wrote: »

It is something of an own goal for rail transport if rail equipment already on a railway has to be moved by road at considerable inconvenience to the public.

Did it cause "considerable inconvenience" to the public? Another slow moving vehicle in slow moving traffic.

How fast can that truck move when loaded?

Losty Dublin

corktina wrote: »

they had TWO cranes did they not and Inchicore isnt a milion Km from Connolly, they could even have taken their fitters and equipment there by train. Could the bogie not have been temporaily fitted and all the connections done when back at Inchicore? It's not impossible to move an unbraked vehicle .

The push pull equipment could have been transferred from one loco to another just as easily as changing a bogie by the sound of what you say about how complicated it is to change a bogie.

Put it to you like this; if it was so easy to do the repairs on site or change a bogie off the cuff or whatever then don't you think that they'd actually have done so instead of having to hire in a crane?

corktina

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Put it to you like this; if it was so easy to do the repairs on site or change a bogie off the cuff or whatever then don't you think that they'd actually have done so instead of having to hire in a crane?

nope...this is CIE

Losty Dublin

corktina wrote: »

nope...this is CIE

It's pointless debating anything if that's the sort of line that you come up with.

corktina

its pointless debating anything with you when you have such absolute faith in what IE do .Their record does not support this.

Would it have taken much effort (and no truck and only one crane) to haul a stored 201 to connolly lift it and remove a good bogie (and place it on stands)and then lift the other loco remove the bad bogie, replace it with the good one and tow the resultant loco to Inchicore for finishing and then store the non-operational loco at Connolly?

steamengine

It's half a dozen of one, or six of the other, a heavy locomotive can't be shifted because of an alleged 'seized axle' therefore a lift is required either way. Next choices are a possible temporary repair on site to facilitate movement by rail, and which might very well include a few unforeseens, or transport it by road to a controlled environment where there is a gantry crane and all required tooling to hand.

Nothing wrong with the latter decision IMO, at least it sounds the more professional of the two choices. Who would have ever expected to see a 201 on the Malahide Road - thanks OP for the pic.

corktina

next question: How much did it cost to hire two big cranes and a massive transporter and pay the gards overtime bill etc ?

I'm guessing €100,000 , now remind me how much is the written down value of a 201?

I can't believe that some are suggesting that IE should have just scrapped 233 rather than repair the problem.

flyingsnail

I cannot think of any suitable ground in Connolly that you could place a on 201 stands.

Also I think there may be stability a issue of you were to put a skid (I think that’s what they are called?) on the centre axle of a 3 axle bogie, if that was the axle that failed. I do not know if that is what happened, I am just offering a possible explanation.

Cookie_Monster

corktina wrote: »

well then, resurrect one of the stored locos and scrap this one for usable parts on site.

LOL, bit extreme don't you think. Scraping a full loco for the sake of one damaged axle?

Judgement Day

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

LOL, bit extreme don't you think. Scraping a full loco for the sake of one damaged axle?

Well IE don't seem to mind withdrawing and dumping similar locos in Inchicore so cost/waste doesn't appear to matter.

ardmacha

Did it cause "considerable inconvenience" to the public? Another slow moving vehicle in slow moving traffic.

How fast can that truck move when loaded?

Trucks are generally banned from the city, for good reason. Did these guys use the tunnel like other trucks?

Victor

ardmacha wrote: »

Trucks are generally banned from the city, for good reason. Did these guys use the tunnel like other trucks?

I suspect that would have been too tall. Malahide Road is a designated high HGV route.

corktina wrote: »

next question: How much did it cost to hire two big cranes and a massive transporter and pay the gards overtime bill etc ? I'm guessing €100,000 , now remind me how much is the written down value of a 201?

I don't think so. Crane operators are deperate for any business these days. I would suspect the cost would be a few thousand.

foggy_lad

corktina wrote: »

next question: How much did it cost to hire two big cranes and a massive transporter and pay the gards overtime bill etc ?

I'm guessing €100,000 , now remind me how much is the written down value of a 201?

Afaik it would work out about €6000/hour for each crane and crew plus the same for the truck and low loader and any staff that came with it, also there would have been serious Irish Rail costs in overtime for staff during the operation as well as a Garda bill and then of course the costs of all those delayed by moving this thing at rushour instead of being logical and sensible and moving it overnight when a Garda escort may not even be neccessary and unloading it at inchicore the following morning with staff and crane hire companies not requiring any overtime payments.

corktina

foggy_lad wrote: »

Afaik it would work out about €6000/hour for each crane and crew plus the same for the truck and low loader and any staff that came with it, also there would have been serious Irish Rail costs in overtime for staff during the operation as well as a Garda bill and then of course the costs of all those delayed by moving this thing at rushour instead of being logical and sensible and moving it overnight when a Garda escort may not even be neccessary and unloading it at inchicore the following morning with staff and crane hire companies not requiring any overtime payments.

maybe more than my estimate then!

If it was the centre axle, could they not have just removed that wheel set and towed it?

Losty Dublin

foggy_lad wrote: »

Afaik it would work out about €6000/hour for each crane and crew plus the same for the truck and low loader and any staff that came with it, also there would have been serious Irish Rail costs in overtime for staff during the operation as well as a Garda bill and then of course the costs of all those delayed by moving this thing at rushour instead of being logical and sensible and moving it overnight when a Garda escort may not even be neccessary and unloading it at inchicore the following morning with staff and crane hire companies not requiring any overtime payments.

On what knowledge do you base your €6,000 per hour figure on?

Also, on what basis do you know that staff were paid overtime, bearing in mind that it was done during normal working hours and that Irish Rail have mechanics and staff who work late/night shifts to supervise same.

Or are you just making it up off the top of your head as per usual?;)

Victor

OK, knock it off.

BrianD

foggy_lad wrote: »

Afaik it would work out about €6000/hour for each crane and crew plus the same for the truck and low loader and any staff that came with it, also there would have been serious Irish Rail costs in overtime for staff during the operation as well as a Garda bill and then of course the costs of all those delayed by moving this thing at rushour instead of being logical and sensible and moving it overnight when a Garda escort may not even be neccessary and unloading it at inchicore the following morning with staff and crane hire companies not requiring any overtime payments.

I have hired similar cranes for a fraction of that on a daily rate and they've had to travel to Dublin. The truck would have required immediate loading and unloading. If it's sitting on the back of a truck then somebody is paying unneccesarily.

A Garda escort would have been required at any time of the day or night given the load. I'm not aware of the Gardai charging for this service.

The impact of this truck moving in slow moving rush hour traffic would have almost been non-existant.

roundymac

This would have been classed as an abnormal load and would have required a permit from the local council and a garda escort, no matter what time of day/night it was operated. It is also safer to do this in daylight.

corktina

BrianD wrote: »

.

The impact of this truck moving in slow moving rush hour traffic would have almost been non-existant.

i can't see this being the case. With its extreme length and width plus its escorting vehicles, and lack of manoeverability I can't see how it's impact would have been anything less than major.

BrianD

corktina wrote: »

i can't see this being the case. With its extreme length and width plus its escorting vehicles, and lack of manoeverability I can't see how it's impact would have been anything less than major.

But the evidence would seem to suggest otherwise. Longer than usual truck, with a van and some motorcycle cops. The max speed limit on any part of the route is 100kPH, in most places 80 or less. What the "real speed" is hard to know but probably lower.

The convoy gets priority at lights to pass through, minor disruption.

The odd junction where there is manouevering issues is localised. For example, the turn onto North Wall Quay is regularly used by BE coaches that are often slow to negotiate due to the narrow street and parked cars. I'd say that guy was through in a couple of minutes. Clearly this vehicle can negotiate tight spaces!

All in all it's stacking up that the traffic congestion caused was minimal.

dowlingm

Judgement Day wrote: »

Well IE don't seem to mind withdrawing and dumping similar locos in Inchicore so cost/waste doesn't appear to matter.

"Similar"?

L1011

dowlingm wrote: »

"Similar"?

non pp 201s

shamwari

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Put it to you like this; if it was so easy to do the repairs on site or change a bogie off the cuff or whatever then don't you think that they'd actually have done so instead of having to hire in a crane?

+1. The correct thing is to get the loco to Inchicore where the necessary kit is there to do the job peoperly. It could not be fixed in situ, and if it could, why on earth would IE have gone to the hassle and and effort of hiring cranes, low loaders etc. to get the thing trucked over.

Also the load was too high to go through the port tunnel, and as there is a HGV / weight restriction through the city centre (thanks to the DPT), it meant that the load had to go the circuitous route overground.

You know, I actually feel sorry for IE when, despite acting correctly in the circumstances obtaining, they are still subjected to the usual scathing, ill informed and ignorant ridicule here.

corktina

for my part, Im just wondering why they would do it this way and the only info I am getting is that IE did it this way because they know best!

Did a problem of this type never happen before because I can't recall them having to use road transport before or is it the case that they have scrapped the equipment formerley used and have to now resort to this procedure? If its just one axle, why couldnt they use a rail skate?

Tell me , I want to know! Don't just rely on IE doing the right thing blindly!

Judgement Day

Yeah, it's terrible the way people always attack a great organisation like CIE. I can't imagine why anybody would think that CIE/IE would do anything that smacked of incompetence.

I've seen wheelskates being used for coaches but never for locos, weight may be an issue.

dermo88

It depends on which, or how many axles were affected by the seizure. There are pathing issues involved, because the network is being used much more intensively compared to (say) the late 1990's. Bear in mind that using a wheelskate leads to one hell of a speed restriction, I believe it is around 25mph maximum. In such a scenario its going to take 6-7 hours to get from Belfast to Dublin, because of all the stopping involved, getting a clear "path", and with Commuter trains running at each end until 23:30 and resuming again at 05:30, its not as logistically simple as it looks.

Therefore, its not beyond the realms of possibility that shipping 233 by road is safer and cheaper than doing so by rail, taking all things into account. If Iarnrod Eireann were going to send it by rail, they would surely have done so.

Iarnrod Eireann are not perfect, but they are not the devil incarnate. Strange line coming from me over the years, but do be prepared to give the benefit of the doubt occasionally.

BrianD

Something tells me that they wouldn't have moved it by road unless they had to.

I don't thing it was a hugely expensive operation but it would have taken a chunk of time to project manage.

Cookie_Monster

dermo88 wrote: »

It depends on which, or how many axles were affected by the seizure. There are pathing issues involved, because the network is being used much more intensively compared to (say) the late 1990's. Bear in mind that using a wheelskate leads to one hell of a speed restriction, I believe it is around 25mph maximum. In such a scenario its going to take 6-7 hours to get from Belfast to Dublin, because of all the stopping involved, getting a clear "path", and with Commuter trains running at each end until 23:30 and resuming again at 05:30, its not as logistically simple as it looks.

Therefore, its not beyond the realms of possibility that shipping 233 by road is safer and cheaper than doing so by rail, taking all things into account. If Iarnrod Eireann were going to send it by rail, they would surely have done so.

Iarnrod Eireann are not perfect, but they are not the devil incarnate. Strange line coming from me over the years, but do be prepared to give the benefit of the doubt occasionally.

Belfast to Dublin?? It would be going from Connolly to Heuston via a track that's only used for stock movements anyway...

It was taken off the track in Connolly, it failed in Dublin