Unusual 201 class photo.

Praetorian

Does anyone know why this 201 class is on a trailer? I was running along the road trying to get closer and closer photos of it. Garda escort I'm sure due to the length.

I would love to know what the story is with this loco!

233 failed on the Enterprise earlier in the week with a seized axle. They probably considered it safer to return it to Inchicore by road.

corktina

where was that? bit of a scoop!

Praetorian

That's the malahide road, heading north bound. Where did it seize up? Seems like an unusual route to take for inchicore?

I'm not sure where it seized up but it was transferred from the Connolly station sidings to the low loader in the car park.

Jehuty42

Oh for God's sake, this was meant to happen overnight when there was no traffic on the roads. What kind of chaos did this cause?

Anyway, IRN thread here.

Praetorian

Well i was kind of able to catch it by running, so it wasn't moving all that fast really There was a fair bit of traffic behind it alright!

ardmacha

Forgive me for being naive, but does there not exist a rail low loader onto which a broken loco or carriage can be loaded in order to be hauled by another locomotive? The use of such would seem a simpler operation and certainly less disruptive to citizens.

Losty Dublin

ardmacha wrote: »

Forgive me for being naive, but does there not exist a rail low loader onto which a broken loco or carriage can be loaded in order to be hauled by another locomotive? The use of such would seem a simpler operation and certainly less disruptive to citizens.

There isn't, no. There are dummy wheel type kits but they are intended for emergency shunting of stock with wheel failures to the first available siding, maybe that's what you have in mind. Given the gradients on the GSWR line across town and especially at Cabra it was evidentally too risky to attemt to move it that way.

Interesting to see, nonetheless.

crushproof

Just heard on the radio there it'll be hitting the N4 and M50 soon enough. At rush hour. Smart folk.

Losty Dublin

crushproof wrote: »

Just heard on the radio there it'll be hitting the N4 and M50 soon enough. At rush hour. Smart folk.

You can most likely blame the Gardai for that. A large load such as it would be moved under their instruction so if they said move it at 4PM......

Jehuty42

Losty Dublin wrote: »

You can most likely blame the Gardai for that. A large load such as it would be moved under their instruction so if they said move it at 4PM......

If they said that they should have been told by IE where to stick it. This kind of movement has happened before, bringing Luas carriages across town for example, and it is generally done at night. This is a complete systems failure on the part of AGS, IE, and their contractors. The incompetence sometimes on display in this country makes my blood boil.

CIE

Karsini wrote: »

233 failed on the Enterprise earlier in the week with a seized axle. They probably considered it safer to return it to Inchicore by road.

Why are axles seizing up? No maintenance of locos, along with abuse?

sdanseo

Haha, I was driving along behind it at this point; I saw you running along with your camera! Mad sight to see, got a few crappy pics which I'll upload when I get home.

Losty Dublin

Jehuty42 wrote: »

If they said that they should have been told by IE where to stick it. This kind of movement has happened before, bringing Luas carriages across town for example, and it is generally done at night. This is a complete systems failure on the part of AGS, IE, and their contractors. The incompetence sometimes on display in this country makes my blood boil.

I agree with you that it's not on but as I said you'd need to talk to the Gardaí about it; as a rule it's their call whenever exceptional loads are moved by road. The only possible thing Irish Rail may have had against it are the fickle neighbours in Inchicore; there was moaning's before on the rare occasion that stock was trucked out of Inchicore but that's just a guess, man.

Andrew33

Please excuse my complete ignorance on this subject but how do they get the loco in to the works in Inchicore?
Surely not via Grattan Crescent and Inchicore Terrace:eek::eek:

sdanseo

Jehuty42 wrote: »

Oh for God's sake, this was meant to happen overnight when there was no traffic on the roads. What kind of chaos did this cause?

Anyway, IRN thread here.

As I said above I was behind it - wasn't a huge delay out of town. It had been stopped at the Spar there in Coolock; I swung right into Tonlegee Road to pull in and take a picture, but it started moving so I just continued on my merry way behind it. It wasn't causing too much delay, maybe took me 10 mins to get from that Spar to the N32 - but that was only because there was shag all traffic. If it hit rush hour traffic God forbid the chaos.

Losty Dublin

Andrew33 wrote: »

Please excuse my complete ignorance on this subject but how do they get the loco in to the works in Inchicore?
Surely not via Grattan Crescent and Inchicore Terrace:eek::eek:

That be it, yeah. The only other road entrance is via Ring Street and is cars only.

Andrew33

Losty Dublin wrote: »

That be it, yeah. The only other road entrance is via Ring Street and is cars only.

Cheers, that's a tight enough turn from Grattan Crescent onto the Terrace with something that size!

Cookie_Monster

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http://transportsceneireland.smugmug.com/RailSceneIreland/RSI-November-2011-233-Crane/19872202_CvpWNW#1563392467_5Sj67fs

corktina

whereas it may well have been cheaper and easier to do it this way, is it not an own-goal for rail to use road transport?

Were I doing it I would have considered lifting one of the stored locos off its bogies and swapping them in situ with a rail tow to follow.

ardmacha

It is something of an own goal for rail transport if rail equipment already on a railway has to be moved by road at considerable inconvenience to the public.

However, my earlier observation about just loading the loco on a wagon possibly wouldn't work as it would exceed the height of the rail bridges. Not sure how other rail administrations would deal with this.

101sean

It's very common in the UK to shift locos and stock like that, it's often cheaper than paying the track access charges :rolleyes: Allelys seem to do most of it http://www.allelys.co.uk/fleet/gallery.asp



In this case, expensive crane hire would have been need to lift the loco for a bogie swap in situ, easier to get the loco back to Inchicore to do it. I presume it was too far and too slow to use wheel skates.

corktina

101sean wrote: »

[In this case, expensive crane hire would have been need to lift the loco for a bogie swap in situ, easier to get the loco back to Inchicore to do it. I presume it was too far and too slow to use wheel skates.

what did they use to lift this one then? :rolleyes:

is that truck an Irish oneor did it come across the water? I seem to recall some preserved diesel moves having to be co-ordinated with the arrival from the UK of a suitable low-loader.

Losty Dublin

corktina wrote: »

whereas it may well have been cheaper and easier to do it this way, is it not an own-goal for rail to use road transport?

Were I doing it I would have considered lifting one of the stored locos off its bogies and swapping them in situ with a rail tow to follow.

Your problem heres include lifting the stored loco, lifting the bogie out of place, finding a bogie to sit underneath the stored loco and getting the bogie to the sick 201 (Which would probably need to be via road), not to mention all of the above in reverse at the other end and then disposing of the problem bogie. Mechanics would then need to install brake lines, electrics etc trackside just to enable it to be shunted to Inchicore, only to repeat this in a running shed. Not impossible but it's a lot of unnecessary work, way more hours of hiring the lifting company and a lot more logistics all told.

FTR Gary Keville of Dublin did the work for them on this job.

corktina

well then, resurrect one of the stored locos and scrap this one for usable parts on site.

(Getting the bogie out requires only jacking and packing surely)

Judgement Day

Surely it could have been cut-up at Connolly?

foggy_lad

Jehuty42 wrote: »

Oh for God's sake, this was meant to happen overnight when there was no traffic on the roads. What kind of chaos did this cause?

Anyway, IRN thread here.

crushproof wrote: »

Just heard on the radio there it'll be hitting the N4 and M50 soon enough. At rush hour. Smart folk.

They are very smart! The Irish Rail bean counters have most likely saved the country thousands and thousands in overtime payments to drivers, engineers, mechanics etc as well as on crane hire and hire of the truck and specialised trailer by moving this during office hours, not to mention the Garda overtime that would have been required.

Losty Dublin

corktina wrote: »

well then, resurrect one of the stored locos and scrap this one for usable parts on site.

(Getting the bogie out requires only jacking and packing surely)

The stored loco's don't have push pull capabilities so they'd need to be fitted out with same and testing etc. Changing a bogie involves a lot more than jacking, it needs a crane and a lot of mechanics on site to connect/disconnect etc etc

corktina

they had TWO cranes did they not and Inchicore isnt a milion Km from Connolly, they could even have taken their fitters and equipment there by train. Could the bogie not have been temporaily fitted and all the connections done when back at Inchicore? It's not impossible to move an unbraked vehicle .

The push pull equipment could have been transferred from one loco to another just as easily as changing a bogie by the sound of what you say about how complicated it is to change a bogie.

Judgement Day

It's even quicker to light up an oxyacetylene torch.

BrianD

ardmacha wrote: »

It is something of an own goal for rail transport if rail equipment already on a railway has to be moved by road at considerable inconvenience to the public.

Did it cause "considerable inconvenience" to the public? Another slow moving vehicle in slow moving traffic.

How fast can that truck move when loaded?

Losty Dublin

corktina wrote: »

they had TWO cranes did they not and Inchicore isnt a milion Km from Connolly, they could even have taken their fitters and equipment there by train. Could the bogie not have been temporaily fitted and all the connections done when back at Inchicore? It's not impossible to move an unbraked vehicle .

The push pull equipment could have been transferred from one loco to another just as easily as changing a bogie by the sound of what you say about how complicated it is to change a bogie.

Put it to you like this; if it was so easy to do the repairs on site or change a bogie off the cuff or whatever then don't you think that they'd actually have done so instead of having to hire in a crane?

corktina

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Put it to you like this; if it was so easy to do the repairs on site or change a bogie off the cuff or whatever then don't you think that they'd actually have done so instead of having to hire in a crane?

nope...this is CIE

Losty Dublin

corktina wrote: »

nope...this is CIE

It's pointless debating anything if that's the sort of line that you come up with.

corktina

its pointless debating anything with you when you have such absolute faith in what IE do .Their record does not support this.

Would it have taken much effort (and no truck and only one crane) to haul a stored 201 to connolly lift it and remove a good bogie (and place it on stands)and then lift the other loco remove the bad bogie, replace it with the good one and tow the resultant loco to Inchicore for finishing and then store the non-operational loco at Connolly?

steamengine

It's half a dozen of one, or six of the other, a heavy locomotive can't be shifted because of an alleged 'seized axle' therefore a lift is required either way. Next choices are a possible temporary repair on site to facilitate movement by rail, and which might very well include a few unforeseens, or transport it by road to a controlled environment where there is a gantry crane and all required tooling to hand.

Nothing wrong with the latter decision IMO, at least it sounds the more professional of the two choices. Who would have ever expected to see a 201 on the Malahide Road - thanks OP for the pic.

corktina

next question: How much did it cost to hire two big cranes and a massive transporter and pay the gards overtime bill etc ?

I'm guessing €100,000 , now remind me how much is the written down value of a 201?

I can't believe that some are suggesting that IE should have just scrapped 233 rather than repair the problem.

flyingsnail

I cannot think of any suitable ground in Connolly that you could place a on 201 stands.

Also I think there may be stability a issue of you were to put a skid (I think that’s what they are called?) on the centre axle of a 3 axle bogie, if that was the axle that failed. I do not know if that is what happened, I am just offering a possible explanation.

Cookie_Monster

corktina wrote: »

well then, resurrect one of the stored locos and scrap this one for usable parts on site.

LOL, bit extreme don't you think. Scraping a full loco for the sake of one damaged axle?

Judgement Day

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

LOL, bit extreme don't you think. Scraping a full loco for the sake of one damaged axle?

Well IE don't seem to mind withdrawing and dumping similar locos in Inchicore so cost/waste doesn't appear to matter.

ardmacha

Did it cause "considerable inconvenience" to the public? Another slow moving vehicle in slow moving traffic.

How fast can that truck move when loaded?

Trucks are generally banned from the city, for good reason. Did these guys use the tunnel like other trucks?

Victor

ardmacha wrote: »

Trucks are generally banned from the city, for good reason. Did these guys use the tunnel like other trucks?

I suspect that would have been too tall. Malahide Road is a designated high HGV route.

corktina wrote: »

next question: How much did it cost to hire two big cranes and a massive transporter and pay the gards overtime bill etc ? I'm guessing €100,000 , now remind me how much is the written down value of a 201?

I don't think so. Crane operators are deperate for any business these days. I would suspect the cost would be a few thousand.

foggy_lad

corktina wrote: »

next question: How much did it cost to hire two big cranes and a massive transporter and pay the gards overtime bill etc ?

I'm guessing €100,000 , now remind me how much is the written down value of a 201?

Afaik it would work out about €6000/hour for each crane and crew plus the same for the truck and low loader and any staff that came with it, also there would have been serious Irish Rail costs in overtime for staff during the operation as well as a Garda bill and then of course the costs of all those delayed by moving this thing at rushour instead of being logical and sensible and moving it overnight when a Garda escort may not even be neccessary and unloading it at inchicore the following morning with staff and crane hire companies not requiring any overtime payments.

corktina

foggy_lad wrote: »

Afaik it would work out about €6000/hour for each crane and crew plus the same for the truck and low loader and any staff that came with it, also there would have been serious Irish Rail costs in overtime for staff during the operation as well as a Garda bill and then of course the costs of all those delayed by moving this thing at rushour instead of being logical and sensible and moving it overnight when a Garda escort may not even be neccessary and unloading it at inchicore the following morning with staff and crane hire companies not requiring any overtime payments.

maybe more than my estimate then!

If it was the centre axle, could they not have just removed that wheel set and towed it?

Losty Dublin

foggy_lad wrote: »

Afaik it would work out about €6000/hour for each crane and crew plus the same for the truck and low loader and any staff that came with it, also there would have been serious Irish Rail costs in overtime for staff during the operation as well as a Garda bill and then of course the costs of all those delayed by moving this thing at rushour instead of being logical and sensible and moving it overnight when a Garda escort may not even be neccessary and unloading it at inchicore the following morning with staff and crane hire companies not requiring any overtime payments.

On what knowledge do you base your €6,000 per hour figure on?

Also, on what basis do you know that staff were paid overtime, bearing in mind that it was done during normal working hours and that Irish Rail have mechanics and staff who work late/night shifts to supervise same.

Or are you just making it up off the top of your head as per usual?;)

Victor

OK, knock it off.

BrianD

foggy_lad wrote: »

Afaik it would work out about €6000/hour for each crane and crew plus the same for the truck and low loader and any staff that came with it, also there would have been serious Irish Rail costs in overtime for staff during the operation as well as a Garda bill and then of course the costs of all those delayed by moving this thing at rushour instead of being logical and sensible and moving it overnight when a Garda escort may not even be neccessary and unloading it at inchicore the following morning with staff and crane hire companies not requiring any overtime payments.

I have hired similar cranes for a fraction of that on a daily rate and they've had to travel to Dublin. The truck would have required immediate loading and unloading. If it's sitting on the back of a truck then somebody is paying unneccesarily.

A Garda escort would have been required at any time of the day or night given the load. I'm not aware of the Gardai charging for this service.

The impact of this truck moving in slow moving rush hour traffic would have almost been non-existant.

roundymac

This would have been classed as an abnormal load and would have required a permit from the local council and a garda escort, no matter what time of day/night it was operated. It is also safer to do this in daylight.

corktina

BrianD wrote: »

.

The impact of this truck moving in slow moving rush hour traffic would have almost been non-existant.

i can't see this being the case. With its extreme length and width plus its escorting vehicles, and lack of manoeverability I can't see how it's impact would have been anything less than major.