What powers do the Luas ticket inspectors actually have?

An Udaras

Atari jaguar? Haha random much...

How about just employing competent and vetted staff? Institute a zero torelance policy in regards to theft or fraud in the role. Get an Revenue Protection agent/ticket inspector to record every official encounter/enforcement duty on a PDA for reference. Issue a receipt aswell as it being logged electronically.

Should counter the risk of staff dishonestly taking fines

The Dublin Airport Authority which is a state owned company just like CIE/IR/RPA has it's own Police Service in each of their airports which proactively police & secure the airport from low level of crimes right upto responding to violent incidents and dangerous situation.

Their very existence helps deter low level of crime occurring and criminals/offenders will generally avoid like the plaque a well policed area like an airport. I'm sure you could apply this logic to our railways,tramways and buses

AlekSmart

foggy_lad wrote: »

Very honourable of the Czech republic but here in Ireland there would be too much temptation for the inspectors to pocket the cash rather than hand it in. There would be fake receipt books all over the place possibly more than even the fake social welfare passes!

Quite a sad post really,if only for the somewhat tortured thought processes it reveals.

However it surely must be nearly time to put an end to this ceaseless sniping at Public Transport Staff by Foggy_Lad.

Earlier on Foggy had the.....good grace (?) to clarify a post in which he appeared to ascribe the term "thief within" as being descriptive of PT staff.

At this point,and in the absence of ANY.....not just some,a bit,a rumour,a sense of...but ANY evidence of this conduct,except in a posters tortured mind could Foggy_Lad be prevailed upon to stick to the factual accounts of his ongoing battles against the overwhelming odds presented by Irelands Public Transport Staff ?

All that being said,and having seen Prague Revenue Teams in full flow,I would be all in favour of sub-contracting our revenue protection duties to them !!

Simples....fine payable on-the-spot or increased on a daily basis if not,also the involvement of Gardai to ensure the validity of details supplied in the event of credit being sought.

It's often illustrative to observe the foreign methodology at work...

I was travelling back from Nice Centre to Nice Airport some years ago when a 6 man Revenue team boarded,collaring two gents with invalid tickets.....much shrugging and negotation about the penalty fare UNTIL the term POLICE was mentioned,whereupon one of the individuals accompanied by an Inspector,hit an ATM and withdrew enough cash to pay the standard fare...all in front of a captive audience of some 70 people....the value of THAT is inestimable !!

MadsL

An Udaras wrote: »

Atari jaguar? Haha random much...

An Udaras wrote: »

How about just employing competent and vetted staff? Institute a zero torelance policy in regards to theft or fraud in the role. Get an Revenue Protection agent/ticket inspector to record every official encounter/enforcement duty on a PDA for reference. Issue a receipt aswell as it being logged electronically.

Should counter the risk of staff dishonestly taking fines

That's pretty much what I wrote (admittedly in shorthand)

An Udaras wrote: »

The Dublin Airport Authority which is a state owned company just like CIE/IR/RPA has it's own Police Service in each of their airports which proactively police & secure the airport from low level of crimes right upto responding to violent incidents and dangerous situation.

Their very existence helps deter low level of crime occurring and criminals/offenders will generally avoid like the plaque a well policed area like an airport. I'm sure you could apply this logic to our railways,tramways and buses

Agree entirely. If you add up the total cost of crime in Dublin, you could deal with much of it at the petty level using Giulianis model. I expect that the drop in crime rates would compensate for the cost of policing.

MadsL

Lighter note: One of my favourite films, Kontroll - all about metro 'kontrol' in Budapest. Won a ton of awards.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0373981/awards

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7j6888RUhvk

mydiscworld

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/new-fines-of-up-to-600-for-abuse-of-luas-workers-3021709.html

"New by-laws set out a range of offences which can incur fines of up to €600, including spitting "in, at or from" a tram, being drunk, smoking or taking a bicycle on board.

They also include rules where ticket inspectors can demand the production of a valid ticket from a passenger on a tram, leaving a tram or standing on a platform after disembarking. Those without tickets must pay a fine of €45."

markpb

mydiscworld wrote: »

"New by-laws set out a range of offences which can incur fines of up to €600, including spitting "in, at or from" a tram, being drunk, smoking or taking a bicycle on board.

Presumably they mean drunk & disorderly as opposed to just drunk

ceannair06

Would it be worth interjecting here "JUST PAY THE DAMN FARE".

Ash.J.Williams

ceannair06 wrote: »

Would it be worth interjecting here "JUST PAY THE DAMN FARE".

in fairness if you are doing 20 heroin deals a day and you pay each fare to each deal, you're looking at over 50quid a day on luas fares.....by not paying you remove that overhead and maintain higher profits...

expectationlost

SBP € Luas security guards seek powers to arrest disruptive passengers, 11 October 2015 by Michael Brennan
http://www.businesspost.ie/#!story/Home/News/Luas+security+guards+seek+powers+to+arrest+disruptive+passengers/id/a507f74e-b297-4169-b38c-848b92f545a5

partly based on Finian McGrath PQ https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2015-09-22a.4155&s=luas+speaker%3A184#g4156.q

I have made inquiries from Transport Infrastructure Ireland (TII) , who operate Luas under contract with Transdev. I understand that Transdev are considering a number of options to improve security on Luas including the practicalities, advantages and disadvantages of appointing security staff as Authorised Officers pursuant to section 66B of the Transport (Railway Infrastructure) Act 2001. I am informed that the matter of appointing security staff is still under consideration and, at this stage, a final decision has not yet been made.

article says Transdev owner of Luas don't want it,

Transport (Railway Infrastructure) Act, 2001 http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2001/act/55/section/66/enacted/en/html#sec66

66.—(1) The Minister, the Agency or a railway undertaking, with the consent of the Agency, may make bye-laws for the management, control, operation and the regulation of a railway, that has been built pursuant to a railway order, and in relation to the repair, improvement, extension and development thereof and, without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing, in relation to any one or more of the following matters—

(b) the prevention of the commission of nuisances in or upon railway vehicles,

but where is the law about Authorised Offices, or examples of Statutory Instruments Authorising such Officer for transport ever? (S.I. No. 576/2006 - Railway Safety Act 2005 (Fixed Payment Notice) Regulations 2006 http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2006/si/576/made/en/print )

PQ Clare Daly https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2015-09-22a.4238&s=%22Authorised+Officers%22+luas#g4240.r

oh its in section 129 of the Railway Safety Act 2005 http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2005/act/31/section/129/enacted/en/html

Powers of authorised officers.

129.—The following section is inserted after section 22 of the Transport Act 1950 :

“authorised officer” means a person appointed under this section or a member of the Garda Síochána whose attendance is requested by an authorised officer or by the B

Jamie2k9

It would cost them quiet a bit of cash I expect but it's needed, sooner the DoJ realize Transport police are needed the better.

the groutch

if they can get a result similar to what you might get from a dedicated transport police, and with a much lower cost to Johnny Taxpayer, I'm all for it.

Jamie2k9

the groutch wrote: »

if they can get a result similar to what you might get from a dedicated transport police, and with a much lower cost to Johnny Taxpayer, I'm all for it.

It will likely cost more long term, as yes they are removed them form the tram but can't do anything else. You will still need guards.

With up to 700 guards been recruited this by end of next year surly 25-30 can be set aside.

expectationlost

follow up to this Luas company wants new group to tackle anti-social behaviour http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/luas-company-wants-new-group-to-tackle-anti-social-behaviour-1.2433622

He said Transdev was “trying to look for support to bring together a joint transport working group to help tackle some of the anti-social behaviour issues”.

watch out scobes a joint working group is coming to get you

SST provide the security
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/luas-calls-for-help-battling-antisocial-behaviour-after-644-complaints-this-year-34226215.html

irish_d

You people are a cartoon. Memes have been made in your honour. Preaching about "what's right" and a "honour system". While the nation around us crumbles to pieces and homeless people die on the streets. Are youse on crack, seriously? Please...spare me the faux moral bull****. Many of those who fare-dodge on the Luas, are decent people and not crack or heroin dealers and do so because they cannot afford to pay. Sure, they could always just walk or get a cheap bike but why should they have to, especially when the fare system is not adequately enforced? In any case, the fare should be subsidised for those on the Social Welfare programme. Some take part in courses, to which travel is only part subsidised. And if train-fare is also to be accounted for, total expenditure for daily transport to and from classes could exceed 10 euro per day. That's out of a weekly allowance of 188.90, of which rent, utilities, groceries - to say nothing of leisure - have not yet entered the equation. While TD's pay themselves 88k per annum and bitch and whine about a pay cut of 33% from what was a salary of 125k, the unemployed (and employed) are met with the raised cost of living via rent, transport, utilities etc etc. And yet, whether employed or not, the very idea of a increase in income or decrease in living costs, is met with derision. Now, none of that is fair - but then why expect the fare dodgers - saying nothing of the dealers who use the trams to get from A to B - to care at all? Yes, that image of the politician with the seven cookies telling the middle class guy to watch out for that working class dude, and that he does not steal his two, springs to mind here. And you clowns have no idea that you are being played. Hilarious, yet tragic. -_-

KwackerJack

irish_d wrote: »

You people are a cartoon. Memes have been made in your honour. Preaching about "what's right" and a "honour system". While the nation around us crumbles to pieces and homeless people die on the streets. Are youse on crack, seriously? Please...spare me the faux moral bull****. Many of those who fare-dodge on the Luas, are decent people and not crack or heroin dealers and do so because they cannot afford to pay. Sure, they could always just walk or get a cheap bike but why should they have to, especially when the fare system is not adequately enforced? In any case, the fare should be subsidised for those on the Social Welfare programme. Some take part in courses, to which travel is only part subsidised. And if train-fare is also to be accounted for, total expenditure for daily transport to and from classes could exceed 10 euro per day. That's out of a weekly allowance of 188.90, of which rent, utilities, groceries - to say nothing of leisure - have not yet entered the equation. While TD's pay themselves 88k per annum and bitch and whine about a pay cut of 33% from what was a salary of 125k, the unemployed (and employed) are met with the raised cost of living via rent, transport, utilities etc etc. And yet, whether employed or not, the very idea of a increase in income or decrease in living costs, is met with derision. Now, none of that is fair - but then why expect the fare dodgers - saying nothing of the dealers who use the trams to get from A to B - to care at all? Yes, that image of the politician with the seven cookies telling the middle class guy to watch out for that working class dude, and that he does not steal his two, springs to mind here. And you clowns have no idea that you are being played. Hilarious, yet tragic. -_-

10 quid a day.....i spend more than that on diesel for God sake yet you don't see me avaiding payment at the fuel pump.

Yes we're are being screwed in many ways but if they subsidise public transport we'll only pay for it some other way.

Pay your way or walk simple as that.

monument

irish_d wrote: »

You people are a cartoon. Memes have been made in your honour. ... And you clowns have no idea that you are being played. Hilarious, yet tragic. -_-

Welcome to Commuting and Transport on Boards.ie, you seem to be able to make your point well between your childish start and finishing lines highlighted above... but if you choose not to and post like that again you will get an official warning and so on if you continue.

Do not reply to this post and read the charter before posting again.

-- moderator

irish_d

KwackerJack wrote: »

10 quid a day.....i spend more than that on diesel for God sake yet you don't see me avaiding payment at the fuel pump.

Yes we're are being screwed in many ways but if they subsidise public transport we'll only pay for it some other way.

Pay your way or walk simple as that.

Are you employed, KwackerJack? I would assume so. I'm not sure therefore, that you understand. Rent rates have gone up by 200 euro per property, on average. Yes, it is true to say that salaries for the employed have not increased by the same amount, just as is true with Jobseekers Allowance but you can at least afford a car. You choose to own and fuel that car. Many do not have that luxury.

irish_d

10 quid per day versus your diesel expenditure? You may take home a conservative average of 500 euro. Jobseekers recipients take home a weekly amount of 189. Next?

irish_d

Also KwackerJack, why should we have to pay (in some other way)? Don't get me wrong, I take your point but why should we have to accept that? The fact is, there is a huge disparity of wealth in this country, just as there is in many others. Suggesting that this is acceptable makes you part of the problem. Society's elite ie the politicians, bankers and developers etc should have to bear the financial brunt of such reform, as they can afford to. I say "should". I will not hold my breath and wait for this to come about, however.

monument

irish_d wrote: »

Also KwackerJack, why should we have to pay (in some other way)? Don't get me wrong, I take your point but why should we have to accept that? The fact is, there is a huge disparity of wealth in this country, just as there is in many others. Suggesting that this is acceptable makes you part of the problem. Society's elite ie the politicians, bankers and developers etc should have to bear the financial brunt of such reform, as they can afford to. I say "should". I will not hold my breath and wait for this to come about, however.

This is the commuting and transport board, try to focus on transport issues -- thanks.

- moderater

Victor

irish_d wrote: »

Many of those who fare-dodge on the Luas, are decent people and not crack or heroin dealers and do so because they cannot afford to pay.

And a proportion are in nice suits with nice jobs.

irish_d wrote: »

In any case, the fare should be subsidised for those on the Social Welfare programme.

Such measures are best done through welfare or training policy, not transport policy.

expectationlost wrote: »

watch out scobes a joint working group is coming to get you

Said scobes may have their own kind of joint working group.

irish_d

Monument, I am focused on transport issues. But when others suggest that all fare-evaders are heroin dealing scum, they make it a social issue -- thanks.

dr.fuzzenstein

Look, just buy a bloody ticket.

monument

irish_d wrote: »

Monument, I am focused on transport issues. But when others suggest that all fare-evaders are heroin dealing scum, they make it a social issue -- thanks.

I can't make this any clearer: reply to moderation again and you will be getting further infractions.

-- moderator

dr.fuzzenstein

I am willing to bet this poster will soon ask Mod if he's wearing his hat and if he can produce his oath, the rhetoric sounds that way.

KwackerJack

irish_d wrote: »

Are you employed, KwackerJack? I would assume so. I'm not sure therefore, that you understand. Rent rates have gone up by 200 euro per property, on average. Yes, it is true to say that salaries for the employed have not increased by the same amount, just as is true with Jobseekers Allowance but you can at least afford a car. You choose to own and fuel that car. Many do not have that luxury.

Yea I am employed and my car is an essential item as my employment is over an hour away and unfortunately public transport will not get me there.

Yes I could maybe move or change jobs but why go to all that bother just to rely on public transport.

KwackerJack

irish_d wrote: »

10 quid per day versus your diesel expenditure? You may take home a conservative average of 500 euro. Jobseekers recipients take home a weekly amount of 189. Next?

Yes I take take over 500 per week but I have to pay for my car to get me to work 5 days a week. The majority of social welfare recipients may not have the expense of running a car a few hundred miles a week and may not need to use public transport 5-7 days per week so I'm not sure what your comparison is about?

I may be wrong but if a social welfare recipient needs to travel that much they usually have a travel pass

irish_d

Nope. Under the new Dept for Social Protection, cushy little side benefits like travel passes and rent allowance have been all but cut from beneficiaries. Rightly or wrongly, now only single mothers and the disabled can avail of rent allowance and travel passes.

The fact remains Kwacker, is that you can afford to run your car. What with the raise of rent rates and the general cost of living in Dublin especially, the unemployed cannot afford a car or indeed, pay the unreasonable rates demanded by Veolia-Transdev, which are not reflected by economic growth or lack thereof. It's so easy to judge those who are in the gutter, isn't it?

Victor

irish_d wrote: »

Nope. Under the new Dept for Social Protection, cushy little side benefits like travel passes and rent allowance have been all but cut from beneficiaries. Rightly or wrongly, now only single mothers and the disabled can avail of rent allowance and travel passes.

Go read this: http://www.inou.ie/download/pdf/pdf_final_version_2015.pdf

KwackerJack

irish_d wrote: »

Nope. Under the new Dept for Social Protection, cushy little side benefits like travel passes and rent allowance have been all but cut from beneficiaries. Rightly or wrongly, now only single mothers and the disabled can avail of rent allowance and travel passes.

The fact remains Kwacker, is that you can afford to run your car. What with the raise of rent rates and the general cost of living in Dublin especially, the unemployed cannot afford a car or indeed, pay the unreasonable rates demanded by Veolia-Transdev, which are not reflected by economic growth or lack thereof. It's so easy to judge those who are in the gutter, isn't it?

There are plenty of employed people in the gutter! My cost of living has risen to but I don't drive with no insurable or drive off without paying for my fuel.

If you use public transport then you need to pay and if you get caught fare dodging then it's your own fault! It's like skipping a €2 parking charge and getting a €60 fine, it makes no financial sencephalitis especially if your already struggling.

Say every person who was stuck for money dodged a fare, do you think the transport network would last?? No it certainly would not and more than likely people like me who are already paying through the nose for actually working and running a car with rising tax and insurance costs will be the ones to foot the bill for those who want to travel for free