Doping Wind

dev110

Lads I will be getting a rifle built soon for F/TR and I'm doing as much research on wind effects at 800-1000 yards.

I am just looking for really life results of wind from 300 - 1000 yards.
As anyone got any info for a 10 mph wind at these distances for example a 155gr or 175gr?
I want to build as much info as possible so I can hit the ground running.

Also what are the advantages of getting a 32" barrel? Or is there any?

Also anyone have any tips that will help with general long range shooting that I could work on before I hit them distances?

Cass

dev110 wrote: »

As anyone got any info for a 10 mph wind at these distances for example a 155gr or 175gr?

I can give you balistic info for the bullets that will give you adjustments at the distances for that wind speed. The problem is while this may get you onto the target board it is not a guarantee of success. hitting the board is only the first step. Learning to read the wind, see its subtle changes in strength, direction or worse again when it drops off.

This is the skill, and without putting you off there are people that have shot for years that still get caught out due to a momentary lapse in conentration. At the Creedmore i was shooting with one of the American FTR (Team Savage) shooters. Stan. Nice bloke and a good laugh. I shot first, and hit 5, 5 with my first two sighters. I converted them and went for my remaining 13 shots. I was doing quite well with mostly 5's and the occassional 4 up to shot 9. I fired, the board went down, and up came a 2. I hesitated and looked around. Then Stan said did you see a drop in the wind. I said no. He said neither did i. I went ot crap for a few shots, nerves, etc, cam back okay at the nd, but dropped 10+ points in 4 shots.

Now if a man that i would class as world class, and shooting far longer than i could not see the change what hope had i.

Reading books, and tips and hints from the experts does help, but there is also the practical end that needs to be catered for. A BC will give you approx. the right adjustments, but they cannot help you with any changes as you won't have time to keep using a BC (besides you're not allowed one on the line or any windmeter/guage for that matter).

A useful tip i used when starting was to get the adjustments for a 10mph full value wind form 3 O'Clock. I would hen measure the wind each time i shot, and if, for example, there was a 5mph wind from 3 O'Clock i would half the value of my recorded adjustments. If it were a 5mph wind from bewteen 4 & 5 o'clock i would half the value again. if it were a 15 mph wind i would add half the value of my recorded adjustments to my 10mph settings.

Once i had this "pre-set" adjustment, i would work out the wind, adjust as necessary, then "tinker" until i reached the bull. it took a while but i also recorded as much details as possible. Starting by recording each shot. The wind conditions, score, etc.In an attempt to understand why my shot did not hit the bull even though i noticed no change.

I'm still learning.:o

Also what are the advantages of getting a 32" barrel? Or is there any?

Very little. Extra muzzle velocity by up to 50fps, and the tiniest bit more stability. ultimately the entire weight of your rig should be approximated. Ths will tell you th type of barrel, and length to go for. I have 30" heavy and medium, 32" heavy and medium barrels, and the speeds between them are only very slightly different.

Also anyone have any tips that will help with general long range shooting

that I could work on before I hit them distances?

I find shooting at 300 yards to be a good test of abilty, ammo, and rifle. After 200 yards the bullet from a .308 has stabilised and you get a truer reading of its performance. Here you can practice hold, position, technique, etc. Then duplicate the circumstances at the longer ranges. i still do a fair bit of shooting at 300 when i want to try something new.

dev110

Ezridax wrote: »

I can give you balistic info for the bullets that will give you adjustments at the distances for that wind speed. The problem is while this may get you onto the target board it is not a guarantee of success. hitting the board is only the first step. Learning to read the wind, see its subtle changes in strength, direction or worse again when it drops off.

This is the skill, and without putting you off there are people that have shot for years that still get caught out due to a momentary lapse in conentration. At the Creedmore i was shooting with one of the American FTR (Team Savage) shooters. Stan. Nice bloke and a good laugh. I shot first, and hit 5, 5 with my first two sighters. I converted them and went for my remaining 13 shots. I was doing quite well with mostly 5's and the occassional 4 up to shot 9. I fired, the board went down, and up came a 2. I hesitated and looked around. Then Stan said did you see a drop in the wind. I said no. He said neither did i. I went ot crap for a few shots, nerves, etc, cam back okay at the nd, but dropped 10+ points in 4 shots.

Now if a man that i would class as world class, and shooting far longer than i could not see the change what hope had i.

Reading books, and tips and hints from the experts does help, but there is also the practical end that needs to be catered for. A BC will give you approx. the right adjustments, but they cannot help you with any changes as you won't have time to keep using a BC (besides you're not allowed one on the line or any windmeter/guage for that matter).

I understand that the only I will learn is by pulling the trigger in all types of weather but I consider myself a very competitive person and anyone who has played with or against me in any sport will tell you likewise.
I like to be prepared thus these questions.
At this novice day I really want to make a real go at reading the wind but if I don't know what a change of 3-5mph wind will do I am at a loss before I even start.

A useful tip i used when starting was to get the adjustments for a 10mph full value wind form 3 O'Clock. I would hen measure the wind each time i shot, and if, for example, there was a 5mph wind from 3 O'Clock i would half the value of my recorded adjustments. If it were a 5mph wind from bewteen 4 & 5 o'clock i would half the value again. if it were a 15 mph wind i would add half the value of my recorded adjustments to my 10mph settings.

Once i had this "pre-set" adjustment, i would work out the wind, adjust as necessary, then "tinker" until i reached the bull. it took a while but i also recorded as much details as possible. Starting by recording each shot. The wind conditions, score, etc.In an attempt to understand why my shot did not hit the bull even though i noticed no change.

I'm still learning.:o

I believe once I have everything sorted as in basics with the new rifle it will be all down to wind reading.

Very little. Extra muzzle velocity by up to 50fps, and the tiniest bit more stability. ultimately the entire weight of your rig should be approximated. Ths will tell you th type of barrel, and length to go for. I have 30" heavy and medium, 32" heavy and medium barrels, and the speeds between them are only very slightly different.

So really a 30" will be plenty. Would medium be ok or should I go for a heavy barrel?

I find shooting at 300 yards to be a good test of abilty, ammo, and rifle. After 200 yards the bullet from a .308 has stabilised and you get a truer reading of its performance. Here you can practice hold, position, technique, etc. Then duplicate the circumstances at the longer ranges. i still do a fair bit of shooting at 300 when i want to try something new.

All of my training will be done at 300 until I'm consistently shooting well.
Out of interest what should an average F/TR shooter be able do in terms of group size @ 300?

I have come across a lot of arguments about where the wind affects the bullet the most. Some say the first 200 yards and some say the last 200 yards as the bullet is going slower.

What do you find more likely to happen?

clivej

This works for me. At €25/$33 inc P&P cheap and works.

http://www.dealextreme.com/p/smart-sensor-1-5-lcd-digital-wind-speed-anemoscope-wind-chill-thermometer-17461

Cass

dev110 wrote: »

I understand that the only I will learn is by pulling the trigger in all types of weather but I consider myself a very competitive person and anyone who has played with or against me in any sport will tell you likewise.
I like to be prepared thus these questions.

Read as much as you can. i prefer reading articles from the 6mmBR site. Some truely great shooters and top notch reviews of real world experience. I couldn't recoomend a book as i've never read one on wind reading.

At this novice day I really want to make a real go at reading the wind but if I don't know what a change of 3-5mph wind will do I am at a loss before I even start.

I understand the desire to do well, but the idea of the novice day is for you to make as many mistakes as is necessary. Nobody is expecting miracles from the get go, and if you do better than the squad members we'll ban ya. .

Seriously though its the whole point behind the day, Not to see who is best, but to show you what involved. Try and give hints, tips, and gudieance. If you take away something new that helps then its a success.

I believe once I have everything sorted as in basics with the new rifle it will be all down to wind reading.

Wind reading is vital, but you will not learn it between now and the day. Its an ongoing lesson. Don't overlook the other things though such as technique, etc. Even now i still try a different lying position or hold to see if its more comfortable and gives me any advantage.

My point being don't overlook everything else while desperately trying to nail the wind reading. imagine being gifted at wind reading, but not having a clue to proper hold, position, breathing, etc.

So really a 30" will be plenty. Would medium be ok or should I go for a heavy barrel?

Look at it this way. you have 18 pound total weight. A stock runs roughly 4 lb. Action, bolt, rings, and mounts about 3lb. Scope maximum of 2lb. Bipod between 0.75 - 2lb. So you now have a total (barrelless) weight of between 9.75, and 11lb. That leaves you between 7 - 8.25lb for the barrel. My 32", bull barrel is approx 7.5 lb. So realistically, and depending on the tyoe of bipod you go for, you could go for 30" heavy profile.

If your stock is heavier, scope, etc then you must adjust as appropriate. Do not get something then think sure i'll save weight somewhere else. Be sure of your weight as the rifle is being built. Its easier to built with the componants you want that will make up the weight you need than building a rifle, and then trying to shave weight wherever you can at the risk of performance.

A medium, 30", Palma profile barrel runs around 6lb.
The bull barrel version about 6.75 again in 30".

You need to hit the maximum of 18 (including bipod) without going over.

All of my training will be done at 300 until I'm consistently shooting well.
Out of interest what should an average F/TR shooter be able do in terms of group size @ 300?

A good target is half MOA at any distance. At 300 yards thats 1.5 inches with 5 rounds. As you ability develops you should be aiming for 0.75MOA at 300 yards. The key here is consistancy. If you get a once off and cannot repeat it, you are not shooting that group you merely got a fluke. Repeatability is key in any shooting discipline, and FTR is no different.

I have come across a lot of arguments about where the wind affects the bullet the most. Some say the first 200 yards and some say the last 200 yards as the bullet is going slower.

What do you find more likely to happen?

Honestly i'm ot qualified enough to answer that. Plus i've no means to accurately measure the variances between the two arguments. I have read though from those i would consider experts that the most effect is caused within the first 200 yards.

clivej

Wind will effect a bullet the most nearest the barrel. If it gets blow off just a little at the barrel that equats to a lot down range.

dev110

Ezridax wrote: »

Read as much as you can. i prefer reading articles from the 6mmBR site. Some truely great shooters and top notch reviews of real world experience. I couldn't recoomend a book as i've never read one on wind reading.

I'm nearly sick of reading articles. Some say one thing and another saying the opposite of what the first just said so it can be testing to keep reading more and more as you don't which is true.

I understand the desire to do well, but the idea of the novice day is for you to make as many mistakes as is necessary. Nobody is expecting miracles from the get go, and if you do better than the squad members we'll ban ya. .

Seriously though its the whole point behind the day, Not to see who is best, but to show you what involved. Try and give hints, tips, and gudieance. If you take away something new that helps then its a success.

Or just make me captain
I'll make plenty of mistakes so just to test ye

Wind reading is vital, but you will not learn it between now and the day. Its an ongoing lesson. Don't overlook the other things though such as technique, etc. Even now i still try a different lying position or hold to see if its more comfortable and gives me any advantage.

My point being don't overlook everything else while desperately trying to nail the wind reading. imagine being gifted at wind reading, but not having a clue to proper hold, position, breathing, etc.

That's what is so great about long range shooting is that if you lack in an area it will show up at 1000 yards and now that you guys have reloading there is another thing to master along with the basics.

Look at it this way. you have 18 pound total weight. A stock runs roughly 4 lb. Action, bolt, rings, and mounts about 3lb. Scope maximum of 2lb. Bipod between 0.75 - 2lb. So you now have a total (barrelless) weight of between 9.75, and 11lb. That leaves you between 7 - 8.25lb for the barrel. My 32", bull barrel is approx 7.5 lb. So realistically, and depending on the tyoe of bipod you go for, you could go for 30" heavy profile.

If your stock is heavier, scope, etc then you must adjust as appropriate. Do not get something then think sure i'll save weight somewhere else. Be sure of your weight as the rifle is being built. Its easier to built with the componants you want that will make up the weight you need than building a rifle, and then trying to shave weight wherever you can at the risk of performance.

A medium, 30", Palma profile barrel runs around 6lb.
The bull barrel version about 6.75 again in 30".

You need to hit the maximum of 18 (including bipod) without going over.

I think I might look into a heavy barrel.
Have you seen any difference between your 30" heavy and medium? Like shots changing when more heat builds up in the barrel?

A good target is half MOA at any distance. At 300 yards thats 1.5 inches with 5 rounds. As you ability develops you should be aiming for 0.75MOA at 300 yards. The key here is consistancy. If you get a once off and cannot repeat it, you are not shooting that group you merely got a fluke. Repeatability is key in any shooting discipline, and FTR is no different.

I will aim for consistency and will hope to have a good group size after a short while. I have read about some lads doing 'dots' where they try to put a round into say 1/2 MOA at 200/300 yards. Have you ever tried this?

Honestly i'm ot qualified enough to answer that. Plus i've no means to accurately measure the variances between the two arguments. I have read though from those i would consider experts that the most effect is caused within the first 200 yards.

clivej wrote: »

Wind will effect a bullet the most nearest the barrel. If it gets blow off just a little at the barrel that equats to a lot down range.

Could a reason why they say that it is most affected at the start is because the bullet does not stabilize until the 300 yard mark?

Cass

dev110 wrote: »

I'm nearly sick of reading articles. Some say one thing and another saying the opposite of what the first just said so it can be testing to keep reading more and more as you don't which is true.

Thats why its important to keep reading. Get as much info as possible, take out the irrelevant, what doesn't work for you then concentrate on the rest.

I have 3 or 4 different methods for estimating wind. Some with wind meters some without. Eac has its merits but from trial and error i've found one that works for me, and for the time being i'll stick with it. I still read up on different articles, and when i can i try them out.

That's what is so great about long range shooting is that if you lack in an area it will show up at 1000 yards and now that you guys have reloading there is another thing to master along with the basics.

I was told by one of the americans that he has been reloading for 35+ years. I said he must be an expert. he response was it takes an hour to learn and a lifetime to master. He reckons he os still learning. With new developemnts in bullets, powder, shells, etc. It changes all the time.

I think I might look into a heavy barrel.
Have you seen any difference between your 30" heavy and medium? Like shots changing when more heat builds up in the barrel?

Psersonally i prefer the heavier profile barrel. The heat from the bore does not effect as quickly as the thinner medium profile. So i can get most/all of my shots off before the heat causes mirage.

I will aim for consistency and will hope to have a good group size after a short while. I have read about some lads doing 'dots' where they try to put a round into say 1/2 MOA at 200/300 yards. Have you ever tried this?

A .308 will easily do this at 100, and 200 yards. With a little bit of shooting its not difficult at 300 either. A good .308 will hold a 1/2 MOA all day long so long as the shooter does his part. I done something like what yu mention once. I had just gotten my rig, and had finished setting it up. put up a target at 200 yards with 1/2" shoot-N-C pastors on it. Steadied myself and fired a shot. It went staight through the centre of the 1/2" disk. I was so happy i brought the pastor down off the target and measured it. It was precisely in the dead centre of it. I have it stuck on the inside of my bag.:D

I usually refrain from using any kind of shoot-n-c targets though. The yellow mark after you hit it gives you a point of aim that you don't get on comp. targets. So i don't want to develope bad habits. but thats just me.



Could a reason why they say that it is most affected at the start is because the bullet does not stabilize until the 300 yard mark?[/QUOTE]

dev110

Ezridax wrote: »

Thats why its important to keep reading. Get as much info as possible, take out the irrelevant, what doesn't work for you then concentrate on the rest.

I have 3 or 4 different methods for estimating wind. Some with wind meters some without. Eac has its merits but from trial and error i've found one that works for me, and for the time being i'll stick with it. I still read up on different articles, and when i can i try them out.

Do you have any good articles?

I was told by one of the americans that he has been reloading for 35+ years. I said he must be an expert. he response was it takes an hour to learn and a lifetime to master. He reckons he os still learning. With new developemnts in bullets, powder, shells, etc. It changes all the time.

True but with reloading you can push your rifle to the best it can be by developing the right load for it.
No more excuses when it doesn't go well

Psersonally i prefer the heavier profile barrel. The heat from the bore does not effect as quickly as the thinner medium profile. So i can get most/all of my shots off before the heat causes mirage.

But would the POI change from build up from heat. Just say at 300 yards as you wouldn't be able to tell at long range because it could have been a slight change in wind.

A .308 will easily do this at 100, and 200 yards. With a little bit of shooting its not difficult at 300 either. A good .308 will hold a 1/2 MOA all day long so long as the shooter does his part. I done something like what yu mention once. I had just gotten my rig, and had finished setting it up. put up a target at 200 yards with 1/2" shoot-N-C pastors on it. Steadied myself and fired a shot. It went staight through the centre of the 1/2" disk. I was so happy i brought the pastor down off the target and measured it. It was precisely in the dead centre of it. I have it stuck on the inside of my bag.:D

I usually refrain from using any kind of shoot-n-c targets though. The yellow mark after you hit it gives you a point of aim that you don't get on comp. targets. So i don't want to develope bad habits. but thats just me.

I think the reason they were doing it was to check there technique. and find any faults.


On another topic: Bipods.

There are so many. Sinclair, censhot, bigfoot, .308 precision bipod.

Sinclair don't seem to have there new bipod out and no one seems to know when they will be out.

What are the advantages and disadvantages of each?

Cass

dev110 wrote: »

Do you have any good articles?

I'll have a nose through some articles, and send them onto you.

True but with reloading you can push your rifle to the best it can be by developing the right load for it.
No more excuses when it doesn't go well

True, but you can always come up with some excuses. I find it eaier to have the prepared from the night before.

But would the POI change from build up from heat. Just say at 300 yards as you wouldn't be able to tell at long range because it could have been a slight change in wind.

It can but the conditions you need to have a shift in the POI means you are shooting srong. For example if you fire quick enough then on say shot 6 or 7 you load a round, and let it "cook" you will find th shot going well off. So if you find a shift in POI you're probably doing something wrong. IMO.

I think the reason they were doing it was to check there technique. and find any faults.

Possibly.

On another topic: Bipods.

There are so many. Sinclair, censhot, bigfoot, .308 precision bipod.

Sinclair don't seem to have there new bipod out and no one seems to know when they will be out.

What are the advantages and disadvantages of each?

Sinclair - Pros - Excellent build, strong, steady, cheap (€140). Cons - Awkward to adjust, and heavy. Comes it at around 2.25lb.

Harris - Pros - Light (0.75lb), easy to fold out, attach, cheap (€120). Cons - Not very steady, does not recoil well, tends to dig in or jump.

Censhot - Pros - Light, easily adjustable, easy to attach. Cons - Flexible, expensive (€350+). By that i mean the ones i seen used beside me seem to "flex" which i wouldn;t be comfortable with. however i have not owned or used one so my opinion is based on visuals not usage. Someone with better experience wuld answer better.

.308 Precision - Pros - Steady, easily adjustable, wide base, good build. Cons - Heavy (nearly 2lb), expensive (£280/€325 IIRC).

dev110

Ezridax wrote: »

It can but the conditions you need to have a shift in the POI means you are shooting srong. For example if you fire quick enough then on say shot 6 or 7 you load a round, and let it "cook" you will find th shot going well off. So if you find a shift in POI you're probably doing something wrong. IMO.

I am still in split minds about the medium and heavy barrel.

Sinclair - Pros - Excellent build, strong, steady, cheap (€140). Cons - Awkward to adjust, and heavy. Comes it at around 2.25lb.

Harris - Pros - Light (0.75lb), easy to fold out, attach, cheap (€120). Cons - Not very steady, does not recoil well, tends to dig in or jump.

Censhot - Pros - Light, easily adjustable, easy to attach. Cons - Flexible, expensive (€350+). By that i mean the ones i seen used beside me seem to "flex" which i wouldn;t be comfortable with. however i have not owned or used one so my opinion is based on visuals not usage. Someone with better experience wuld answer better.

.308 Precision - Pros - Steady, easily adjustable, wide base, good build. Cons - Heavy (nearly 2lb), expensive (£280/€325 IIRC).

What about the Fito Force?

Cass

dev110 wrote: »

I am still in split minds about the medium and heavy barrel.

I~'m in the midlands tomorrow so if you want to drop over i can show you some barrels, and see if that helps.

What about the Fito Force?

Never seen one. I have seen a homemade style one. It was heavy, but that could be because of the material used. however it was very easy to attach, and very easy to adjust. One simple dial on the shooters off side.

dev110

Ezridax wrote: »

I~'m in the midlands tomorrow so if you want to drop over i can show you some barrels, and see if that helps.

I'm working 7-4 tomorrow so won't be able to get over.
I'm finished at 3 on Sunday if you are around?

Never seen one. I have seen a homemade style one. It was heavy, but that could be because of the material used. however it was very easy to attach, and very easy to adjust. One simple dial on the shooters off side.

I forgot about having to get a bipod
Will need that to start shooting because I will need to get the rail on the stock so a harris won't fit on it then.

Cass

dev110 wrote: »

I'm working 7-4 tomorrow so won't be able to get over.
I'm finished at 3 on Sunday if you are around?

I'll let ya know. Will be there for a while tomorrow anyway.

I forgot about having to get a bipod
Will need that to start shooting because I will need to get the rail on the stock so a harris won't fit on it then.

A rail with a harris no 6 adaptor will do the job for pretty much every type of bipod.

zeissman

dev110 wrote: »

I am still in split minds about the medium and heavy barrel.





What about the Fito Force?

I bought a Fito Force earlier this year for my trg and I like it.
Its very steady.
Take a look at the new trakker bipod from www.dolphinguncompany.co.uk
It looks similar to the fito but its a bit lighter.

dev110

zeissman wrote: »

I bought a Fito Force earlier this year for my trg and I like it.
Its very steady.
Take a look at the new trakker bipod from www.dolphinguncompany.co.uk
It looks similar to the fito but its a bit lighter.

I like the look of the trakker bipod!
One thing I was worried about on the Fito Force was that the ski's were small and was unsure would it slide as well as the Sinclair bipod.
On the trakker the ski's look good and is light which is also a big help.

zeissman

Yeah I like the look of it too.
I must try and talk one of my mates into buying one so I can try it out.