Formula 1: Round 17 - Indian Grand Prix

amacachi

Sigh, Vettel cruises to another win.

Autosport

I'm surprised that Alonso is so far off the pace, Button is racing good but Vettel always seems to have that extra bit of pace

vectra

Dcully wrote: »

For someone to side with him on that incident I'd have thought they would have to be ,makes your opinion even more bizzare , just like the stewards ofcourse , then again the ex driver for today us English

No.
I would see it from a neutral point of view.
The reason I was happy is that it was not another race with the attitude of "Slap another penalty on Hamilton"

vectra

Autosport wrote: »

I'm surprised that Alonso is so far off the pace, Button is racing good but Vettel always seems to have that extra bit of pace

Vettel is so lucky to be able to get the heat in to the tyres so quickly he can break that one second gap before drs kicks in.
I would love for someone to be able to stick within the gap for the drs.

Roll on next year.

amacachi

I still get the impression that Vettel is sandbagging or at least turning the engine down for long stretches of the race. He always has at least a second a lap in his pocket whenever he needs to open a gap at the start or whenever someone behind starts closing. The difference between his ultimate pace in a race and Webber's is well over a second as far as I can tell which is scary for the rest of the field and for last year.

vectra

Dcully wrote: »

Are you watching a different race , how did he cut him off , he had racing line and was ahead ,nothing he could do .

Do you still see it from this point of view?
Loads of replays after the race showed Massa even knew he was there. He looked directly over at him.

EvilMonkey

The decision against Massa was a joke even the biased Brundle and DC reluctantly blamed Hamilton. If Massa didn't turn in he would have been off the track.

Hamilton was at fault in my opinion. It was a racing incident no need for a penalty. Seems like Massa gets a penalty because Hamilton was on the radio first. :mad:

Its clear Massa has decided to not just jump out of Hamilton's way and let him through. I hope more drivers do the same. It seems like he cant overtake unless the car in front is caught by surprise or when the car in front doesn't give him room.

If Vettel crashed as much as Hamilton has this year Whitmarsh would be calling him the crash kid and everyone would be questioning his ability to overtake.

amacachi

EvilMonkey wrote: »

Its clear Massa has decided to not just jump out of Hamilton's way and let him through. I hope more drivers do the same. It seems like he cant overtake unless the car in front is caught by surprise or when the car in front doesn't give him room.

I've been saying for ages that if Hamilton made his debut 20/25 years ago that he would've gotten nowhere because most of his overtakes are lunges that people would've turned into him for even trying. With that in mind I was delighted to see Massa turn in and maintain his line and couldn't believe he got a penalty. Looks like the message has been sent and the red carpet is ordered.

freestyla

Dcully wrote:

Are you watching a different race , how did he cut him off , he had racing line and was ahead ,nothing he could do .

vectra wrote: »

Do you still see it from this point of view?
Loads of replays after the race showed Massa even knew he was there. He looked directly over at him.

I also noticed that Hamilton lift off throttle while he was by Massa's side, then Massa push throttle harder and they collided. Hamilton didn't run full speed over the inside kerbs like lunatic anyway.

Another thing, in my opinion Massa had very many meters of track length on his right side which Hamilton did not, and Hamilton was already being half a car length passing so where to back off? This time Hamilton didn't hit him from the back like in Singapore where you can clearly accuse the guy behind.

Also Hamilton was faster in particular place in previous lap already, had much better exit out of previous corner. Massa didn't manage to work that out the next lap and kept racing line by force which led to collision.

Racing line alright but whole tarmac area is racing track anyway and accident would have been avoided if Massa had moved half a meter more to the right.

So I blame those responsible of NOT WASHING all that dust off the track. Everybody was talking about wide corner entries but how many overtakes happened there actually? a bit boring race because of too strict racing line.

Myrddin

I liked the track, seemed like a great atmosphere & show, & an all round excellent event. As a race though, absolute snorefest I thought with the exception of a few incidents.

mickdw

EnterNow wrote: »

I liked the track, seemed like a great atmosphere & show, & an all round excellent event. As a race though, absolute snorefest I thought with the exception of a few incidents.

Tyres too durable. Hope we don't go back to boring races next year with long lasting tyres and few stops

I like how Schumacher got ahead of Rosberg.

SD7792

I'm normally very anti-Hamilton but have sort of warmed to him the last few weeks.

When the incident happened I thought it was a racing incident and nothing more.

However, having a look back I can see why the stewards gave Massa the penalty. At one point Hamilton got either level or slightly in front of Massa and it seemed as if Massa used KERS to get back to allow himself to cut across Hamilton.

Upon reflection, I believe the stewards made the correct decision however I can see the relevant arguments for a penalty for either driver or no penalty at all. So I suppose its more a matter of opinion more than anything else.

losthorizon

It seems to be like Hamilton is having a sort of mini-breakdown. His manner out of the car is very strange. He needs to sort out his off "field" activities and come back stronger next season. Hes nothing like the driver he used to be. Anytime he approaches a car on track now you would fear a collision.

Myrddin

losthorizon wrote: »

It seems to be like Hamilton is having a sort of mini-breakdown. His manner out of the car is very strange. He needs to sort out his off "field" activities and come back stronger next season. Hes nothing like the driver he used to be. Anytime he approaches a car on track now you would fear a collision.

Yeah, you can see by the chap he's a wreck. He'll bounce back though, Ireckon he was at rock bottom around Monaco (and that stupid Ali G reference). While his racecraft is suffering badly, at least he's got his head screwed on interview wise. The season break will be the ticket for him hopefully.

He needs his Dad back in close proximity, & to forget about Icey Tea & Snoopy Snoopy Dog Dog for a while & regain his perspective.

frostie500

To be honest its very sad to see such a racer lose his way on track. Hamilton just looks a shadow of the driver he was in 07 and 08 and its hard not to think that he has changed due to the entourage that he had at races. When it was him and his family he looked happy and raced well. i couldnt get over seeing him at Silverstone in the McLaren area of the paddock. He was slouched him a corner almost hiding away from people and looking like he just didnt want to talk to anyone. It was a marked difference from Button who seemed to always have a smile on his face and was talking to everyone. Its hard not to correlate this unhappiness with his ontrack performance. Hopefully Lewis can find the balance again soon because its a loss to see a driver like him all at sea.

Sitec

Good Grand Prix, Vettel is really getting on my nerves (or maybe it's all the other drivers not keeping pace) I'd like to see a few close battles for first at this stage.

Hamilton wasn't in the wrong this time IMO.

Ron Atkinsons reaction was hilarious, actually roared laughing.

amacachi

mickdw wrote: »

Tyres too durable. Hope we don't go back to boring races next year with long lasting tyres and few stops

I like how Schumacher got ahead of Rosberg.

As I said, current mediums and hards should be next year's mediums and hards.

frostie500 wrote: »

To be honest its very sad to see such a racer lose his way on track. Hamilton just looks a shadow of the driver he was in 07 and 08 and its hard not to think that he has changed due to the entourage that he had at races. When it was him and his family he looked happy and raced well. i couldnt get over seeing him at Silverstone in the McLaren area of the paddock. He was slouched him a corner almost hiding away from people and looking like he just didnt want to talk to anyone. It was a marked difference from Button who seemed to always have a smile on his face and was talking to everyone. Its hard not to correlate this unhappiness with his ontrack performance. Hopefully Lewis can find the balance again soon because its a loss to see a driver like him all at sea.

His head his gone, and not just in a racing sense. Just looking at him over the last month or so I thought something wasn't right and Brundle as good as confirmed it when he said that he'd been talking to his dad but it was confidential and wouldn't say what was said. Something's not right there and as much as I "dislike" Hamilton I hope it stops soon. It's annoying not having him involved in the race up top. Over the last couple of races (thanks to DRS) he could've tried some adventerous strategy to try for the podium/win but he just seems to have given up. Usually his reckless overtaking is more reckless than silly but the last 4 races or so it's all just been pure silliness.

decisions

A boring race overall minus the compulsory Lewis Massa coming together, and Shumacher beating Nico. 

The tyre choice was understandable, new track, not sure how abrasive  the surface was going to be ect. Hopefully next year they will be less conservative. The track looks nice, couple of very nice corner combos, the wide corners to help overtaking and allow multiple lines kinda flopped due to all the dust. But again easly fixed. The DRS zones didn't create as much passing as I was expecting and switching them around should also be looked at. The pit lane exit is a bit of a disaster as Martin mentioned in commentary and almost everyone was locking up on the way out. But there is no doubt that the track has potential and is defiantly up with the best of the new tracks. 

 The Massa Lewis crash was in my opinion a racing incident and Massa was very unlucky to get a penalty.  But at the same time I'm happy Lewis didn't get another penalty in this case he didn't deserve it. To take on the Red Bulls next year we are going to need Both Lewis and Fernando back to their best. Lewis is no where near the driver he was in his first season. The spark is missing. He has been clumsy with his overtakes and he has shown the immaturity that I thought was gone at the start of the season. I am by no means a Lewis fan but what ever he has going on in his head he needs to get sorted and fast. 

The mid field battle was a bit of a let down, Paul's strategy   was good and he should have made moor of it and gotten himself up into the points. Senna ran a good race and seems to be turning into a handy driver. But what I found interesting was how large a gap the Mercs had over the mid field, they were not put under any pressure once the got themselves together on the first lap, Schumacher seemed to coast for almost the entire race. And Nico didn't have the pace to challenge higher up 7/8 th  is their finishing positions for the final races minus anyone falling off the track in front ( Massa/+Lewis..?)

losthorizon

Cookie_Monster

losthorizon wrote: »

It seems to be like Hamilton is having a sort of mini-breakdown. His manner out of the car is very strange.

He just misses his bimbo

http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/independent-woman/celebrity-news-gossip/lewis-nicole-and-i-are-still-mates-2920251.html

Dorsanty

SD7792 wrote: »

At one point Hamilton got either level or slightly in front of Massa and it seemed as if Massa used KERS to get back to allow himself to cut across Hamilton.

I don't know about you but with the video that losthorizon posted it looks to me like Hamilton's front tyre made it as far as the front of Massa's side-pod. There's a whole meter left to be level with Massa's front tyre.

In my opinion you can only claim the corner if front wheels are side by side. For one it means the other guy can definitely see you. I'd take issue with the stewards saying Massa knew where he was and that was why they handed out the penalty. For sure Massa may have had an idea but from all the times mirrors and F1 cars have been mentioned there's more talk of blind spots and having to see things through your rear wing than anything else.

I'm not going to say Hamilton is at fault, it was 50:50 and F1 needs to stop penalising everything. If it gets any more silly they'll start taking phone votes on who to blame. It's a racing incident FIA, leave it alone!

As for next season I'm not sure if I want all the other teams to get better and creep up behind Red Bull. The problem with this year is that Jenson, Alonso, and Hamilton all took points from each other. Webber also took points but because he wasn't winning he took the podium slot rather than taking points away from Vettel. To defeat Red Bull and Vettel there will need to be either 1 rival team, or 1 rival driver that can consistently take victories off Vettel. Otherwise we are in for another year of not seeing a battle for first place, or seeing the leader much on TV because he's off in the distance cruising thinking about which finger he'll hold up when he jumps out of the car.

Cookie_Monster

Dorsanty wrote: »

I'm not going to say Hamilton is at fault,

I will, it was just yet another ill timed move of his. He has repeated this all season, reckless dives down the inside which always end badly.

If he keeps doing it he needs to be penalised harsher IMO, he's destroying too many peoples races with his own stupidity.

the culture of deference

losthorizon wrote: »

It seems to be like Hamilton is having a sort of mini-breakdown. His manner out of the car is very strange. He needs to sort out his off "field" activities and come back stronger next season. Hes nothing like the driver he used to be. Anytime he approaches a car on track now you would fear a collision.

Yeah I agree. Watching him being interviewed made me sad. There is something wrong with guy.

He is a wonderful driver but this NEW F1 does not suit him.

We now seem to have racing drivers cruising around, waiting for permission from the team to turn the car up.

I want to see out and out full tilt. The engine regs and tyre regs are ruining everything.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I will, it was just yet another ill timed move of his. He has repeated this all season, reckless dives down the inside which always end badly.

If he keeps doing it he needs to be penalised harsher IMO, he's destroying too many peoples races with his own stupidity.

IMO it is LH's fault 100%, he was offline on dust with no chance of taking the corner with any speed. He was nowhere near the racing line.

The onboard of FM shows LH front right just level with his rear left. It is not an overtaking place.

Poor FM, the guy cannot get a break, it was a terrible decision to give him a penalty.

Cookie_Monster

the culture of deference wrote: »

We now seem to have racing drivers cruising around, waiting for permission from the team to turn the car up.

I want to see out and out full tilt. The engine regs and tyre regs are ruining everything.

simple solution is bring back refuelling. Please bring back refuelling, for god's sake! Don't even need the complicated fuelling system, just use a gravity feed one

No need to keep engines turned down, especially if the stupidity of limited replacement engines is throw out too. Cheapness and sustainability is getting in the of racing far too much these days in F1.

Charlie-Bravo

I know is being talked to death - here's my two cents:

Hamilton never had a chance in beating Massa to the corner, so he ended up well inside Massa - I blame Hamilton for putting himself in that position. Massa did turn in to take the corner, it was bloody obvious from the preceding laps that Hamilton was going to try something, and by Massa turning in when there is a whole road width, he could had 'avoided' the collision - I blame Massa for that. So who should get the penalty? Non-one, it's a racing incident.

I would love to see refuelling come back - especially when a Ferrari leaves the pit lane with a fuel hose still attached. Short fuelling to get ahead of a driver on track and then forcing an earlier second stop was part and parcel of the strategies. The current strategies is purely about the tyres and when they'll go off.

losthorizon

astrofluff wrote: »

I know is being talked to death - here's my two cents:

Hamilton never had a chance in beating Massa to the corner, so he ended up well inside Massa - I blame Hamilton for putting himself in that position. Massa did turn in to take the corner, it was bloody obvious from the preceding laps that Hamilton was going to try something, and by Massa turning in when there is a whole road width, he could had 'avoided' the collision - I blame Massa for that. So who should get the penalty? Non-one, it's a racing incident.

I would love to see refuelling come back - especially when a Ferrari leaves the pit lane with a fuel hose still attached. Short fuelling to get ahead of a driver on track and then forcing an earlier second stop was part and parcel of the strategies. The current strategies is purely about the tyres and when they'll go off.

LIGHTNING wrote: »

What is a bit silly of Hamiliton is that he has already had a number of run ins with Massa. So why oh why would you try a risky move on him??

I am actually against pit stops of any kind for two reasons

1) Overtaking should be done on track

2) The FIA should regard Motor sport as a spectator sport - if theres loads of pit stops its impossible to know whos in what position if you're in the grandstand which is crazy.

Sitec

astrofluff wrote: »

I would love to see refuelling come back - especially when a Ferrari leaves the pit lane with a fuel hose still attached. Short fuelling to get ahead of a driver on track and then forcing an earlier second stop was part and parcel of the strategies. The current strategies is purely about the tyres and when they'll go off.

Hopefully re-fuelling will be brought back in with the turbo engines, you're dead right saying it's another strategy, tyre wear is interesting enough this season but next season it will be very predictable as they have a full season with the new tyres.

the culture of deference

Sitec wrote: »

Hopefully re-fuelling will be brought back in with the turbo engines, you're dead right saying it's another strategy, tyre wear is interesting enough this season but next season it will be very predictable as they have a full season with the new tyres.

Yea I agree. Its not racing anymore. Its controlling.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

simple solution is bring back refuelling. Please bring back refuelling, for god's sake! Don't even need the complicated fuelling system, just use a gravity feed one

No need to keep engines turned down, especially if the stupidity of limited replacement engines is throw out too. Cheapness and sustainability is getting in the of racing far too much these days in F1.

They spend more millions travelling than on this effeciency nonsense.

BRING BACK RACING

amacachi

LIGHTNING wrote: »

I never liked refuelling it ruined races as half the over taking was done in the pits.

Also it rewarded making more pitstops. While certainly the current tyres give an advantage after making a stop it's not as much as when they could put in low fuel loads for the whole race and no reward for making tyres last.