Chiropractors

cormie

I put my neck out a few weeks ago and a physiotherapist friend of mine suspected my back may be slightly misaligned and to go to a chiropractor. I had no reason to doubt the advice, I went, got manipulated and was given advice on exercises etc. It got better a few days after and then I put it out again, pain from the same area etc and decided to get an xray.

In the last few weeks I've learned that Chiropractors are considered pseudo science here and aren't recognised, in that, the XRAY department would never release copies to a Chiropractor and that they can do a lot more harm than good even if a lot of people have good results using them.

I said this to my Physiotherapist friend who said that she believes there's a few under handed preventions for them from the medical industry in Ireland and that they are recognised as proper treatments in Australia and I think she said the US too.

The XRAY is going to be reported back to my GP who will then advise on what to do.

Should I really dismiss the idea of going to a Chiropractor? By the way, the one local to me has studied in Australia and has a very good reputation.

COH

Like in any profession there are good ones and bad ones.

thehamo

I have two herniated discs in my back. Ive had great results with a chiropractor and terrible results with a physio. As mentioned before, theres some good eggs and bad eggs in each profession.

Degsy

cormie wrote: »

I put my neck out a few weeks ago and a physiotherapist friend of mine suspected my back may be slightly misaligned and to go to a chiropractor. I had no reason to doubt the advice, I went, got manipulated and was given advice on exercises etc. It got better a few days after and then I put it out again, pain from the same area etc and decided to get an xray.

In the last few weeks I've learned that Chiropractors are considered pseudo science here and aren't recognised, in that, the XRAY department would never release copies to a Chiropractor and that they can do a lot more harm than good even if a lot of people have good results using them.

I said this to my Physiotherapist friend who said that she believes there's a few under handed preventions for them from the medical industry in Ireland and that they are recognised as proper treatments in Australia and I think she said the US too.

The XRAY is going to be reported back to my GP who will then advise on what to do.

Should I really dismiss the idea of going to a Chiropractor? By the way, the one local to me has studied in Australia and has a very good reputation.

You want to end up in a wheelchair?

http://www.chirobase.org/08Legal/turner.html

http://quackfiles.blogspot.com/2006/12/must-see-dangers-of-chiropractic.html


http://www.ebm-first.com/chiropractic/sandra-nette-v-stiles-et-al.html

cormie

Thanks for the replies, which I agree with of course. But just going by what I heard recently, it seems they are thrown into the same category of other professions who have no science to back them up and thrive on the placebo effect, but I can't see the placebo effect popping a disc back into place?

opinion guy

cormie wrote: »

Thanks for the replies, which I agree with of course. But just going by what I heard recently, it seems they are thrown into the same category of other professions who have no science to back them up and thrive on the placebo effect, but I can't see the placebo effect popping a disc back into place?

What science is behind chiropractic ?

You don't even know if you disc is really out of place - you would need an MRI to spot that.

cormie

Sorry, I'm not saying I have a disc out of place, but just in general, as I said, I wasn't even aware that they were viewed as an unconventional treatment method until after I went, I had heard of them before and assumed they were like Physios, who I had been recommended to from my own GP before, but it seems a GP wouldn't recommend to go to a Chiro, at least not here anyway, but I've been told they are recognised in Austrailia/The US where a GP would refer to a Chiro, I don't know much about the matter myself, was just surprised to hear.

Degsy

Just stay away from them..they're a bunch of quacks.

Blindside87

I use the Chiro quite a bit but I am no better than I was. I would get my back done and it would be good for a few weeks and then straight back out. What is the alternative to a Chiro though?

thehamo

Degsy wrote: »

cormie wrote: »

I put my neck out a few weeks ago and a physiotherapist friend of mine suspected my back may be slightly misaligned and to go to a chiropractor. I had no reason to doubt the advice, I went, got manipulated and was given advice on exercises etc. It got better a few days after and then I put it out again, pain from the same area etc and decided to get an xray.

In the last few weeks I've learned that Chiropractors are considered pseudo science here and aren't recognised, in that, the XRAY department would never release copies to a Chiropractor and that they can do a lot more harm than good even if a lot of people have good results using them.

I said this to my Physiotherapist friend who said that she believes there's a few under handed preventions for them from the medical industry in Ireland and that they are recognised as proper treatments in Australia and I think she said the US too.

The XRAY is going to be reported back to my GP who will then advise on what to do.

Should I really dismiss the idea of going to a Chiropractor? By the way, the one local to me has studied in Australia and has a very good reputation.

You want to end up in a wheelchair?

http://www.chirobase.org/08Legal/turner.html

http://quackfiles.blogspot.com/2006/12/must-see-dangers-of-chiropractic.html


http://www.ebm-first.com/chiropractic/sandra-nette-v-stiles-et-al.html

A friend of mine went to a chartered physical therapist for a pain she had in her back. He worked on her and she woke up the next morning she could hardly walk the pain was that bad. She went and got an MRI and one of the discs in her back was after being twisted out of place.

What I'm trying to say is I'm sure if we look hard enough we could find plenty of articles where medically recognised professions have ended up making a problem worse.

Personally speaking, I went from ten sessions with an osteopath and seein no results to the same with a chiro and seeing much quicker and effective results. I was hardly able to walk for months and after 20 sessions all in all I'm back running and in the gym doing heavy sessions. All I can say is it worked for me, and I didn't end up in a wheel chair.

rain on

thehamo wrote: »

What I'm trying to say is I'm sure if we look hard enough we could find plenty of articles where medically recognised professions have ended up making a problem worse.

Personally speaking, I went from ten sessions with an osteopath and seein no results to the same with a chiro and seeing much quicker and effective results. I was hardly able to walk for months and after 20 sessions all in all I'm back running and in the gym doing heavy sessions. All I can say is it worked for me, and I didn't end up in a wheel chair.

I could've written this post word for word, except I saw a very reputable physio (who didn't have a clue about lower back problems, it turned out) instead of an osteopath. My chiropractor is Canadian and chiropracty is medically recognised over there, they're all up on the latest back pain research and they apply it very well.

nullzero

Degsy wrote: »

Just stay away from them..they're a bunch of quacks.

"It's not all just cracking... Now you may feel a slight cracking"

Brian?

Chiropractors are not medical professionals. There is no science behind what they do.

How can you trust that you're seeing "one of the good ones"?

cormie

That's the thing though, they seem to be not medical professionals here, but are in other countries? You could have the same question with how can you trust your seeing a good one with any doctor.

d-gal

briankeating wrote: »

Chiropractors are not medical professionals. There is no science behind what they do.

How can you trust that you're seeing "one of the good ones"?

That's like saying the same with any profession! A personal trainer could put your back out by giving you wrong instructions on a deadlift.
A physio, physical therapist or massage therapist could do more damage than good misdiagnosing an injury.
A doctor could kill you giving you a wrong injection. A surgeon could kill you in surgery.

There are several good chiros out there, and several bad 1's but that's like every profession. In galway I only ever recommend 2 chiros, 5 physios and 2 physical therapists. I have yet to find a GP to recommend tho!

Brian?

cormie wrote: »

That's the thing though, they seem to be not medical professionals here, but are in other countries? You could have the same question with how can you trust your seeing a good one with any doctor.

With a doctor there are years of training and education behind them, so a minimum standard has been set for qualification.

You can't compare the 2.

Brian?

d-gal wrote: »

briankeating wrote: »

Chiropractors are not medical professionals. There is no science behind what they do.

How can you trust that you're seeing "one of the good ones"?

That's like saying the same with any profession! A personal trainer could put your back out by giving you wrong instructions on a deadlift.
A physio, physical therapist or massage therapist could do more damage than good misdiagnosing an injury.
A doctor could kill you giving you a wrong injection. A surgeon could kill you in surgery.

That's poor reasoning. A Physio or a doctor are trained based on sound scientific reasoning and answer to medical boards if anything goes wrong. They are professionals.

What's the training standard for a chiro? Is there a board that can bar them from practising if they do anything unethical? Chiros are not professionals.

There are several good chiros out there, and several bad 1's but that's like every profession. In galway I only ever recommend 2 chiros, 5 physios and 2 physical therapists. I have yet to find a GP to recommend tho!

That's up to you. All subjective. No way in hell am I trusting the health of my spine to a word of mouth recommendation.

TeaServer

I must admit that this thread has opened my eyes somewhat. I'm in the same boat as OP in that I always assumed chiropractors were medical professionals!

I've recently been experiencing lower back pain. What medical professional should I visit? GP or Physio or other?

Apologies, I realize this is a bit OT

/T

Brian?

TeaServer wrote: »

I must admit that this thread has opened my eyes somewhat. I'm in the same boat as OP in that I always assumed chiropractors were medical professionals!

I've recently been experiencing lower back pain. What medical professional should I visit? GP or Physio or other?

Apologies, I realize this is a bit OT

/T

If you visit a GP they'll probably refer you to a Physio anyway, so I'd just go straight to a Physio. Where are you and someone might be able to reccomed one.

TeaServer

briankeating wrote: »

If you visit a GP they'll probably refer you to a Physio anyway, so I'd just go straight to a Physio. Where are you and someone might be able to reccomed one.

Stillorgan / Sandyford area South Dublin. Thanks

cormie

Brian, with your training/professional/qualification argument, is that just Ireland, or Worldwide your referring to? If Worldwide, why then would they be recognised in Canada/Australia? By the way, the guy I went to is Australian and studied in Australia.

Again, I have no argument here myself as I was completely unaware in the first place, just trying to figure things out to see what's best for my on health.

Spokes of Glory

OP, it sounds first of all like you don't have a clear diagnosis yet ? If you do have disc bulge or herniation in your neck, no chiro or other medical practitioner that I know of can "pop it back into place".

I'd suggest first of all to educate yourself as to what are the various treatment techniques used. Chiro's use high-velocity thrusting techniques to manipulate the spine. While effective in many cases, by nature they are more risky.

Physios or Physical Therapists use more low-velocity, safer manipulations to encourage movement and realignment, and will advice you on modifying your functional activities, posture etc, that may be exacerbating your condition.

Osteo's lie somewhere in between.

As to the "recognition" question, in my opinion Ireland is somewhat behind other countries such as Australia in having a wider range of regulated medical interventions such as osteopathy, and there are many political reasons for that too, so it doesn't necessarily mean the treatment doesn't have any validity.

Spokes

cormie

Thanks spokes, yep at the moment I'm waiting for the Xray report to be sent to my GP and I'll discuss with him my options but won't dismiss a Chiro based on any political reasons or a few cases of bad experiences as I'm sure I could easily find the same about GP's and every other profession.

Oryx

You cant just 'pop a disc back in'

Another baseless argument for strengthening back muscles is that a muscular armour will hold your spine in place thereby preventing you from putting your back out. The jargon used to describe damaged backs unfortunately helps to perpetuate this particular myth. People talk of ‘slipped discs’ as if an intervertebral disc (ID) was a bar of soap. Due to their anatomical structure, IDs can neither slip out nor can they slip back in. In truth, it would be more accurate to speak of a split disc rather than of a slipped disc. When this type of injury occurs, what has happened is that the tough peripheral part of the ID, called the annular ligament, cracks or tears. A torn ligament is a sprain; therfore, a so-called slipped disc is in fact a sprained disc.

cormie

Don't nit pick on what I've said above please, I'm only looking for advice but appreciate the info

Brian?

cormie wrote: »

Brian, with your training/professional/qualification argument, is that just Ireland, or Worldwide your referring to? If Worldwide, why then would they be recognised in Canada/Australia? By the way, the guy I went to is Australian and studied in Australia.

Again, I have no argument here myself as I was completely unaware in the first place, just trying to figure things out to see what's best for my on health.

I'm not sure how they qualify or are board certified in other countries. I wonder do they have their own board to "certify" them and lend themselves legitimacy.

cormie

This is taken from a description of the one I've been to:

Registered as a Doctor of Chiropractic with the Australian Health Practitioners Regulation Agency (AHPRA). The Chiropractic course is a five year full time degree.

Looking at the AHPRA site, it looks similar to what the HSE would be here... so is it a case that this guy is a recognised practitioner in Australia but because of whatever politics going on in Ireland, he isn't recognised and is seen as a "quack"?

Oryx

The NHS in the UK offer homeopathy as an option. The fact that a government agency recognises an alternative therapy does not make it less controversial. The opposite in fact.

Cookie_Monster

Conditions of membership of Irish Chiro Association

http://www.chiropractic.ie/cai-membership/info/joining-the-cai

seems comprehensive enough to me, professionally and training proof wise.

In both Aus and NZ Chiro's are fully entitled to be called Doctor once qualified. As in the states also though their standards don't seem quite as high at first glance.

Brian?

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Conditions of membership of Irish Chiro Association

http://www.chiropractic.ie/cai-membership/info/joining-the-cai

seems comprehensive enough to me, professionally and training proof wise.

In both Aus and NZ Chiro's are fully entitled to be called Doctor once qualified. As in the states also though their standards don't seem quite as high at first glance.

You don't see a problem with them accrediting themselves?

Back to my point: chiropractic "medicine" is not a science. In fact science stands against it for the most part.

Oryx

I didnt understand the difference between osteopaths, chiropractics and 'regular' spinal medicine till I read up on them. The origins of chiropractice are genuinely shocking. Proper quack science. I simply dont understand how you can build a regulated, scientifically based medical practice on such shaky roots, no matter who you get to accredit it.

opinion guy

briankeating wrote: »

]
That's up to you. All subjective. No way in hell am I trusting the health of my spine to a word of mouth recommendation.

And yet - no way I wold trust the health of my spine to someone without word of mouth recommendation.

briankeating wrote: »

Where are you and someone might be able to reccomed one.

Oh the ironing:D

Brian?

opinion guy wrote: »

briankeating wrote: »

]
That's up to you. All subjective. No way in hell am I trusting the health of my spine to a word of mouth recommendation.

And yet - no way I wold trust the health of my spine to someone without word of mouth recommendation.

briankeating wrote: »

Where are you and someone might be able to reccomed one.

Oh the ironing:D

I knew someone would say that. But I never said all physios were equal. Just that they had a basic level of scientific training. None of them will put you in a wheelchair but some are better than others.

Do I need to make the same point over and over with a sledge hammer?

Brian?

Oryx wrote: »

I didnt understand the difference between osteopaths, chiropractics and 'regular' spinal medicine till I read up on them. The origins of chiropractice are genuinely shocking. Proper quack science. I simply dont understand how you can build a regulated, scientifically based medical practice on such shaky roots, no matter who you get to accredit it.

I completely agree. It's lik accrediting homeopaths, reiki healers or apache shamen. Although at least none of those will put you in a wheelchair. Well the apache might, if you don't pay your bill.

opinion guy

briankeating wrote: »

I knew someone would say that. But I never said all physios were equal. Just that they had a basic level of scientific training. None of them will put you in a wheelchair but some are better than others.

Do I need to make the same point over and over with a sledge hammer?

No I mostly agree with you - I just like ironing.

I was making the point that - qualifications are not enough even in mainstream professions. Its always good to get a word of mouth opinion on someone before going to them (hmmm....especially dentists:eek:)

Brian?

opinion guy wrote: »

briankeating wrote: »

I knew someone would say that. But I never said all physios were equal. Just that they had a basic level of scientific training. None of them will put you in a wheelchair but some are better than others.

Do I need to make the same point over and over with a sledge hammer?

No I mostly agree with you - I just like ironing.

I was making the point that - qualifications are not enough even in mainstream professions. Its always good to get a word of mouth opinion on someone before going to them (hmmm....especially dentists:eek:)

The difference is that a basic professional qual is a protection against being treated by an incompetent.

There is no such protection with a chiro because they aren't a professional.

cormie

briankeating wrote: »

There is no such protection with a chiro because they aren't a professional.

Are you still basing that on only Irish based ones or Worldwide like the Dr. I referred to above?

opinion guy

briankeating wrote: »

The difference is that a basic professional qual is a protection against being treated by an incompetent.

One name proves this wrong. Dr Micheal Neary.

Cookie_Monster

briankeating wrote: »

The difference is that a basic professional qual is a protection against being treated by an incompetent.

just like accountants eh?


What about the countries that fully recognise that they are professional, like Aus and NZ as already mentioned?

I'm just playing devil's advocate here btw, used to go to one but stopped cos didn't think it was doing anything in the end...

Brian?

I'm done. I'm just repeating myself now.

cormie

I'm still none the wiser really. So what I've gathered:

• They are recognised in other countries. Irish politics getting in the way here.
• There is no "science" behind what they do
• Some people have great results
• Some people, as with patients of many other bad practitioners, have bad results.

opinion guy

cormie perhaps it would be helpful for you to know about chiropractic theory.

Read the sections 'Straight and mixers' & 'Vertebral Subluxations' on the wikipedia link and ask yourself does it make any sense whatsoever ?

Whoops....forgot the link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiropractic#Straights_and_mixers

Also read the section 'Risk/Benefit'

Degsy

cormie wrote: »

Some people, as with patients of many other bad practitioners, have bad results.

Yes..i guess you could say being paralysed from the neck down is a bit of a "bad result".

Would people trust thier front teeth to an "alternative" dentist who qualified by working on horses and doesnt beleive in anasthesia?

COH

Degsy wrote: »

Would people trust thier front teeth to an "alternative" dentist who qualified by working on horses and doesnt beleive in anasthesia?

You leave Dr. Ed out of this!

Molly

d-gal wrote: »

That's like saying the same with any profession! A personal trainer could put your back out by giving you wrong instructions on a deadlift.
A physio, physical therapist or massage therapist could do more damage than good misdiagnosing an injury.
A doctor could kill you giving you a wrong injection. A surgeon could kill you in surgery.

There are several good chiros out there, and several bad 1's but that's like every profession. In galway I only ever recommend 2 chiros, 5 physios and 2 physical therapists. I have yet to find a GP to recommend tho!

Could you tell me who the physios/physical therapists are please?

eilo1

thehamo wrote: »

A friend of mine went to a chartered physical therapist for a pain she had in her back. He worked on her and she woke up the next morning she could hardly walk the pain was that bad. She went and got an MRI and one of the discs in her back was after being twisted out of place.

What I'm trying to say is I'm sure if we look hard enough we could find plenty of articles where medically recognised professions have ended up making a problem worse.

Personally speaking, I went from ten sessions with an osteopath and seein no results to the same with a chiro and seeing much quicker and effective results. I was hardly able to walk for months and after 20 sessions all in all I'm back running and in the gym doing heavy sessions. All I can say is it worked for me, and I didn't end up in a wheel chair.

Could you please specify if this was a physiotherapist or physical therapist. In Ireland a physical therapist is not a recognised health practitioner. Their degree will not be a level 8 or from an accredited university. A physiotherapist in Ireland will have graduated from UCD, Trinity, UL or RCS.

With regard to the chiro being a Dr in other countries debate. My understanding is that they can call themselves Dr of Chiropractic medicine. But they are not MD's. They will not have the basic medical training of an intern, gp, nchd etc.
Chiro's have made claims about their ability to cure things such as ear ache, bed wetting and other things that have absolutely no scientific evidence to back up these claims.

I wish the government would seriously crack down on alternative treatments. The industry is poorly regulated. A freind of mine is training as a herbalist. They run clinics every weekend and have dozens of people coming in with various illness and condition. At no stage in their course do they even get first aid training! Imagine holding clinics with for ill people and not even having basic first aid traing! :eek:

Beruthiel

For six years now I have two degenerated discs in my lower back.
For the first three years I tried physio. It did feck all for me and I was constantly out of work for long periods at a time.

A chiropractor down in Naas was recommended to me.
He studied for five years in the Anglo European College of Chiropractic (AECC) in England.
I was skeptical as I knew the attitude towards chiropractors in Ireland.
However, after three years of physio getting me no where, I was desperate.
He's a god send. He has basically kept me on my feet for the last three years and I cannot say enough good things about him.

eilo1

Beruthiel wrote: »

For six years now I have two degenerated discs in my lower back.
For the first three years I tried physio. It did feck all for me and I was constantly out of work for long periods at a time.

A chiropractor down in Naas was recommended to me.
He studied for five years in the Anglo European College of Chiropractic (AECC) in England.
I was skeptical as I knew the attitude towards chiropractors in Ireland.
However, after three years of physio getting me no where, I was desperate.
He's a god send. He has basically kept me on my feet for the last three years and I cannot say enough good things about him.

Why would you keep going back for a treatment that didnt work???:eek:

InTheTrees

I had a persistent ache in my lower back/abdomen over a period of four or five months.

I went to a chiropractor for a couple of months who treated it, and there would be four or five hours relief after every appointment.

It gradually got worse though and I ended up going to my doctor and being diagnosed with a Hernia! SO I was completely wasting my time at the chiro, and they never recognised my problem for what it was because they were focused on muscle injuries and accept my diagnosis(!).

Its turned me off chiropractors for good. Unless you were to go and get checked by your GP first who then recommends a chiro.

Mr. Presentable

Cormie, if it is the same guy I went to, Australian in D6, he was good for me.

However. He also told me my back was somewhat out of alignment and kept me coming back long after my initial problem was better.

My then partner hurt her back and he helped her too, but told her her back was out of alignment and booked plenty of repeats to sort it out.

My sister hurt her back and made an appointment, but before she got to it a friend got her a cancellation for a scan. She had an ulcerated disc, which can not be helped by chiropractic and, according to her doctor, might well have been burst had she had chiro done, leaving her mobility permanently compromised.

In summary Cormie - I'd go again, but only as a last resort.

Hanley

Every discipline is going to treat your symptoms using their own system.

Physios will rub ya and make you do light elastic band exercises

Chrios will crunch you

Physical Thearpists will probably make ya doing something in the middle

And GPs will just refer you to someone else

I really think it's a case of the right tool, for the right job, used by someone who understands the body and can prescribe pragmatic treatement that address the CAUSE of the injury, and not just the injury itself.