For those of you who want to be toned and shredded...

Hanley

...you're never going to get there unless you can tell me exactly how many kcals, grams of protein, carbs and fat you're eating daily.

Discuss.

drdeadlift

interdasting

blah88

I think it's a good idea to count calories/macros for a little while, so you have a rough idea of how many you're taking in. I'v been guilty of getting too anal about it before and it just drives you insane. I was constantly thinking about how many calories were in everything. If my friend gave me ends on his crisps or chips or whatever, I'd be straight onto Fitday as soon as I got home to check the damage. Even playing football and stuff the calorie burn would be in the back of my mind just so I'd know how to eat afterwards. It worked but I really hated it.

I'm finding these days that I can lose fat/ maintain muscle easily enough just by doing 1 heavy upper and 1 heavy lower day a week, and metcons/ cardio on the other days. I eat more starchy carbs on the heavy weights days and more fat/ veg/ protein on the other days. I also do intermittent fasting and drink lots of coffee and water and never get hungry. I'm still in the process of shifting all the weight I gained over the Summer. Most of that weight gain was because I'd been so anal about counting calories/ restricting certain foods before the Summer, then i just binged when I got away.

There's a lot of people I know who are shredded and don't count calories. I believe Transform doesn't advocate calorie counting? I follow his advice mostly.

Hanley

blah88 wrote: »

There's a lot of people I know who are shredded and don't count calories. I believe Transform doesn't advocate calorie counting? I follow his advice mostly.

Dominic generally lies outside of normal rules - he trains exceptionally hard, eats exceptionally well and has been doing so for a long long time. He'd know pretty well what he's eating without needing to count, plus he's ALREADY shredded, not trying to get there. You (or the majority of other people) won't go from overweight and out of shape to that, just by training hard and "eating right".

I can think of one person I know for a fact who was eating VERY clean paleo and only started losing weight once she looked at kcals. Simply eating the right foods isn't enough (and most people don't even do that anyway).

My point is - someone going from out of shape to super lean (or just lean) won't be able to do it unless they're tracking calories. Or if they do, they'll be in the distinct minority.

I'll put it to the floor and see what comes back.

Maintaining leaness once it's already established is a whole different ball game and outside of the scope of this thread, imo.

Spunge

You said the T word.

Hanley

:eek:

Spunge wrote: »

You said the T word.

:eek: I know...

Unlike some here I got over the idea of showing how much I know by admonishing people about colloquialisms a while ago.

I figure we all know what it means, there's no point wasting forum space on giving out to people over it.

Dathai

Out of interest, would you or anyone in the know regarding personal training and nutrition advocate a website like swole.me to a beginner looking to adjust their diet to meet their goals (weight loss / bulking) ?

Zamboni

Hanley wrote: »

My point is - someone going from out of shape to super lean (or just lean) won't be able to do it unless they're tracking calories. Or if they do, they'll be in the distinct minority.

I'd agree with this.
There will always be some lucky dumb bastards who can't count, never mind count calories who will be in awesome shape but they are few and far between.

On the opposite side, I am trying to get hyuooge at the moment and I would never ever consume the necessary calories without daily tracking.

Whether toning or getting massive, it's a project. And projects should be planned, monitored, assessed for variance and corrected if necessary.
And calorie counting is only the monitoring aspect fulfilled.

I don't used fitday, I created my own spreadsheets and can rank food stuffs by protein content, calorie content, right down to the price of protein per gram (very important one).

blah88

I'v gotten pretty lean for the Summer two years in a row now. I got BF measured at I.P just before it was closed and was told I was between 9-11% bodyfat.

The first year I did it I lost weight without counting calories and just eating Paleo style and doing lots of exercise. The second time I counted calories strictly and did basically no cardio. My weights routine was basically the same each year. The results were pretty much the same. I suppose though both times I was coming off a bulking phase and would have lost weight regardless. I definitely don't think I need to know EXACTLY how many calories/ grams I'm taking in though. I just aim to get enough protein and get a bit of each type of fat and a lot of veg and some fruit. I suppose the calories are always in the back of my mind but I'm not going back to measuring everything I eat on a food scale again. I can do it by eye easily enough now. Other people may need to be more strict though.

Red Cortina

Hanley wrote: »

...you're never going to get there unless you can tell me exactly how many kcals, grams of protein, carbs and fat you're eating daily.

Discuss.

Have you read this blog post about 2 folks who have been eating an unrewarding diet? http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2011/10/losing-fat-with-simple-food.html They aren't counting calories, they are just eating really bland food. So yes, I think it is possible to get somewhat lean without calorie counting.

Hanley wrote: »

Maintaining leaness once it's already established is a whole different ball game and outside of the scope of this thread, imo.

I think maintaining is a whole different (and harder) ball-game.

Dotcomdolly

Spunge wrote: »

You said the T word.

For a second I thought you meant Transform

blah88

I just did a rough calorie count of an average day's diet for me. It's working but I just wanted to see out of curiosity how many cals I'm taking in. I don't even feel like I'm ''on a diet''. I sort of follow the Leangains guide by Martin Berkhan. Google it if you must.

Wake up about 10 or so

Drink coffee, green tea, Pepsi Max, water until about 2pm in the day. The caffeine/ warmth from these drinks really help. I never find myself hungry or tired during the ''fast'' at all. I do my heavy weights fasted bar a scoop of protein beforehand.

Over the day I eat three meals. Usually about 200 grams of chicken in each. Sometimes I'd eat tuna/ casein protein/ red meat instead.
This comes to just under 1000cals. I eat a lot of veg with these meals and usually a whole egg aswell. I don't count the veg. The 3 eggs add about 300 calories and about 24g protein and some fat.

I have a handful of berries with each meal, usually about 5 each of raspberries/blueberries/blackberries. I remember measuring the calories in these before, and it was roughly 1 calorie per berry. So overall these amount to less than 100 cals per day but seem to make me feel a lot healthier/ energised.

I have a small handful of mixed nuts with each meal aswell. Usually only about 5 or 6. These are basically 7-10 calories per nut. Easy to eyeball count. These would add about 100-150 cals per day.

So that's about 1500cals. I cook with coconut oil/butter sometimes, I add a teaspoon of peanut/almond butter to my casein protein sometimes, I have coconut milk with my tea/coffee/shakes. I add pysllium husk to these aswell which really turns it into a meal, it's full of fibre and keeps me full. I nibble on dark chocolate whenever I feel like it. All these extras never add more than a couple of hundred cals. I'd imagine I don't go over 2000 cals at all.

When I drink, which is once a week on average, I do this http://www.leangains.com/2010/07/truth-about-alcohol-fat-loss-and-muscle.html. it works. I never feel like eating until very late the next day which pretty much cancels out the calories in the alcohol.

Since returning from the Summer I'v gone from 87kg to 82kg with no strength loss. My weighted chins/ dips have gotten much better however. This is the first bit of calorie counting I'v done.

Just my two cents on the matter. I'm going to keep going like this till I'm happy with my level of fatness.

Some thing I'v learned along the way
-Protein is the most filling macro. It also has the highest thermic effect. Some believe it is closer to 3kcals per gram than 4kcals. When your diet is as protein-based as mine is, this would mean a couple of hundred calories difference.

- I have done a PSMF before. It's basically an all protein diet. It works really well but makes you feel terrible. I was always really cold, libido disappeared, I had no energy and was really grumpy the whole time. Getting more fat in my diet makes me feel a lot better.

d-gal

Dathai wrote: »

Out of interest, would you or anyone in the know regarding personal training and nutrition advocate a website like swole.me to a beginner looking to adjust their diet to meet their goals (weight loss / bulking) ?

I'll have a website in January set up for exactly what you are looking for, once its nearly set in December I'll start letting people know about it

@Hanley
I don't think it is necessary to count calories, I know a lot of top Irish bodybuilders that wouldn't know how many cals they are getting in a day. They would know their protein amount (roughly) and carb amount if cutting. Usually wouldn;t have a clue about how much fat they are getting in.
Being honest if you train well, eat really well then you should get shredded, not cover model shredded but way above average!

Mickk

I'm using a prep coach in the states for a cut I'm doing because I've been on a perma bulk for years and don't really know how to cut. I was surprised to see he doesn't count cals, he just took my current diet and adjusted it and will keep adjusting depending on how quickly/slowly I lean out (based on pictures).

g'em

chances are the prep coach knows within 50 cals or so what that intake amounts to though - when you spend long enough (and your career relies on) counting cals you get very good at doing the mental maths without having to do it all on paper.

Oh and judging by the fb photos whatever s/he is telling you, keep doing it :pac:

deadlybuzzman

Hanley wrote: »

...you're never going to get there unless you can tell me exactly how many kcals, grams of protein, carbs and fat you're eating daily.

Discuss.

I could never say what Ive been on except aprox how much protein give or take, I dont know if it counts as shredded but I went from having a 38 inch waist at 14 1/2 stone to aprox 28 inchs at 12 1/2 stone and a 4 pack by gradually reducing carb intake by coming off GOMAD and shrinking carb portions at mealtimes.
I honestly cant tell if I lost much muscle mass but didnt lose any strength which I was very happy with.
It definitely helped that I have a very active job so its nearly like being on a treadmill for 8-9 hours per day.

jive

I disagree (with toned, not shredded - but you said toned and shredded so I don't know what to believe... toned ^_^). For someone new to the game then it would be hard to say otherwise (it's obviously do-able but it would be optimal to at least have a good estimate on the cals their taking in) but I think after circa 2 years of training and eating properly you almost know exactly what you need to eat volume wise to get things done efficiently and properly. Obviously getting down to <10% naturally would require a more precise and complex diet but to get bigger and/or lean I think guesstimating is a pretty good method so long as you have an understanding of how much you should be eating. The mirror, calipers and scales are tools which would obviously help.

Having said all that once you hit single digits I think you should be calculating calories and cycling carbs (unless on keto, ovvviiii). My understanding of sub 10% body fat is severely limited though because I think natural people struggle to maintain decent mass and generally look like shít in clothes (and you're wearing them most of the time, it's Ireland) when at low levels of body fat.

I don't want to get too muscly though... I just want to tone my bum

Mickk

g'em wrote: »

chances are the prep coach knows within 50 cals or so what that intake amounts to though - when you spend long enough (and your career relies on) counting cals you get very good at doing the mental maths without having to do it all on paper.

Oh and judging by the fb photos whatever s/he is telling you, keep doing it :pac:

That's what I thought and was a bit taken aback but no he has never counted cals! Everyone is so different , I was on about 5-6 kcals a day for the last couple of years (4 litres of milk every day plus 6-7 meals) and I only ever got up to about 13% bf, in one week on the diet he gave me (I worked it out to be 3200-3600 cals a day depending on workout/non workout days) I lost 10 lbs. I know of a dublin bodybuilder who was on 4500 cals a day right up until the day of the competition. Btw the amount of abuse I got for putting that up as a before picture was funny.

Mellor

Really overweight people need to to either count calories, or follow a rigid paln than is essentialy passive calorie counting. (WW for example would fall into this category). They just have no other way to guage what is enough food.

People who are in good shape trying to get into great shape. Need to do the exact same thing. It can be in the form of eating random fods are tracking the cals or following a very strict plan and ignoring the cals.
Take blah88's typical day of food above. He wasn't counting calories, but he was eating such a rigid diet that they didn't vary. His diet was set up to meet his caloric requirements. Passive counting.

itsallaboutheL

Mellor wrote: »

Really overweight people need to to either count calories, or follow a rigid paln than is essentialy passive calorie counting. (WW for example would fall into this category). They just have no other way to guage what is enough food.

Really overweight people need to stop eating so much ****.

Gummy Panda

Mellor wrote: »

Really overweight people need to to either count calories, or follow a rigid paln than is essentialy passive calorie counting. (WW for example would fall into this category). They just have no other way to guage what is enough food.

People who are in good shape trying to get into great shape. Need to do the exact same thing. It can be in the form of eating random fods are tracking the cals or following a very strict plan and ignoring the cals.
Take blah88's typical day of food above. He wasn't counting calories, but he was eating such a rigid diet that they didn't vary. His diet was set up to meet his caloric requirements. Passive counting.

I agree. People think stuff like low carb make them lose a lot of weight due to lack of carbs. It's generally because they're on a calorie deficit but have a lot satiety from protein and fat.

Mellor

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

Really overweight people need to stop eating so much ****.

Delicious delicious ****.

BlueIsland

I track and count- I loose weight and get fitter.
I dont track and count- I tend to put on weight and loose fitness.

I genuinely think this is a mental thing based on an individuals mindset!

gavtron

BlueIsland wrote: »

I track and count- I loose weight and get fitter.
I dont track and count- I tend to put on weight and loose fitness.

I genuinely think this is a mental thing based on an individuals mindset!

when you're not tracking and counting...are you more likely to be eating sh!te?

billyhead

gavtron wrote: »

when you're not tracking and counting...are you more likely to be eating sh!te?

I think your better off tracking your cals if you want to lose weight. I did this for a couple of years and lost a ****load of weight too much for my build and height. I did the opposite to gain the weight again i.e not count cals and just eat a crap load of food and I piled on the pounds to a more normal level

BlueIsland

gavtron wrote: »

BlueIsland wrote: »

I track and count- I loose weight and get fitter.
I dont track and count- I tend to put on weight and loose fitness.

I genuinely think this is a mental thing based on an individuals mindset!

when you're not tracking and counting...are you more likely to be eating sh!te?

Yeh think that's my point! For me personally I am mentally in a better place when I track intake! Maybe it's a guilt issue of looking at what I eat! I'm not saying that you have to track to be shredded etc! Some people it could possibly inhibit them tracking! All depends on the person!

cmyk

Hanley wrote: »

...you're never going to get there unless you can tell me exactly how many kcals, grams of protein, carbs and fat you're eating daily.

I agree. If you're primarily talking (presumably) about sub 10% males and sub 18% women. For the vast majority of people I think macro levels (and training) have to be played with depending on somatotype etc.

Duck's hoop

What do you do about being hungry? If you want to get single digit BF?

I dropped a bit of fat in the spring, I wasn't too bad to begin with but I did watch cals closely for the first time.

BUT I was hungry, especially in the evening.

cmyk

Duck's hoop wrote: »

What do you do about being hungry? If you want to get single digit BF?.

Well now you're delving into the psychology of diet...and that would merit a thread of it's own. There is of course an element of sacrifice to achieve that though, despite what mens health magazine will have you believe.

Duck's hoop

I reckoned as much.

I can understand the sacrifice element for competitors, specific goals, periods of time but going hungry on a permanent basis, on the off chance you might need to whip the top off seems a bit mad to me.

cmyk

Duck's hoop wrote: »

on the off chance you might need to whip the top off seems a bit mad to me.

Don't underestimate the motivation of vanity :cool:

In theory you're not going hungry permanently as you're moving to maintenance once you hit your goal. In reality those you see as lean are always fluctuating by a few % but have a decent grasp on dieting and what works for them.

I'd like to hear Barry's take on it from an athletic viewpoint, when timescales are involved etc.

dartstothesea

By the time you're at quite low BF % would there be very little difference between cut and maintenance intakes though? Or is that all wrong...

Hanley

Duck's hoop wrote: »

I reckoned as much.

I can understand the sacrifice element for competitors, specific goals, periods of time but going hungry on a permanent basis, on the off chance you might need to whip the top off seems a bit mad to me.

Lyle (who else would I talk about when it comes to this stuff?!) has a fantastic piece on the psyhcology of dieting that deals with that topic, I think it's called "The Full Diet Break".

The basic gist of it was exactly what you're saying. If you've particularly heavy client, and anyone dieting in general, that thought can be extremely daunting and lead them to not starting in the first place.

So he plans free meals once every 4-5 days, a full day refeed ever 10-14 days and a full diet break for 2 weeks ever 6-12 weeks (depending on the client).

On the full diet break, carbs go to 150g of carbs at least, and kcals go to maintenance plus maybe 10%.

The net effect is that you've always something to look forward to every 5 days or so, and you never end up looking at months of prolonged starvation.

I don't think it's necessary to be hungry all the time either tho, not unless you're very lean already. Meal timing (every 2-3 hours) and food choice (high protein, moderate fat) should do a lot to mitigate it like.

Hanley

dartstothesea wrote: »

By the time you're at quite low BF % would there be very little difference between cut and maintenance intakes though? Or is that all wrong...

I'd like to hear how you arrived at that conclusion... Seriously. I think if you outline your thought process on it, you'll probably realise it's not the case.

audi a4 2008

Hanley wrote: »

...you're never going to get there unless you can tell me exactly how many kcals, grams of protein, carbs and fat you're eating daily.

Discuss.

hi there,i dont belive in this at all.below are my reasons

1.5 years ago 15.5 stone,1.5 years of training 4 days a week im now 9.5 stone.
i eat a chinise once a week as a treat
every other day nothing special just no junk,everyday foods.

my idea of training is work hard at it,and dont worry about kcals/carbs/fat it will just try u mad.
all u need is willpower the rest will fall into place

dartstothesea

Hanley wrote: »

I'd like to hear how you arrived at that conclusion... Seriously. I think if you outline your thought process on it, you'll probably realise it's not the case.

I couldn't have phrased it any less like a conclusion. I asked a question on something I made sure to make clear I was in no way sure about. If you're not too taken aback by the whole thing you could even hazard an answer there.

Edit: Well, I could just take it from that that you're saying the answer is 'no'.

keane2097

Zamboni wrote: »

I don't used fitday, I created my own spreadsheets and can rank food stuffs by protein content, calorie content, right down to the price of protein per gram (very important one).

Link to spreadsheets or GTFO!

Hanley

dartstothesea wrote: »

I couldn't have phrased it any less like a conclusion. I asked a question on something I made sure to make clear I was in no way sure about. If you're not too taken aback by the whole thing you could even hazard an answer there.

Ummmm ok.... I wasn't trying to put you down, but I've always found thinking thru things tends to give me a fairly good idea. That's all I was getting!

Think of it this way:

-Dude's 200lb. So wants to eat 12kcals/lb to lose weight and 14kcal/lb to maintain. 2,400 to diet, 2,800 to maintain.

-Dude diets to 180lb and wants to keep going. Using the above figures he needs 2,160 to diet and 2,520 to gain.

The deficit in the first is 400, in the second it's 360. So yes, the gap narrows, but it should never come close to fully closing.

Those numbers are of course very general and used for illustravie purposes only, but would be a good starting point for someone looking to diet.

Zamboni

keane2097 wrote: »

Link to spreadsheets or GTFO!

http://emea.microsoftstore.com/UK/en-GB/Microsoft/Excel-2010?WT.mc_id=pointitsem_Excel_buy&WT.srch=1&WT.term=microsoft+excel+purchase&WT.campaign=6065&WT.source=google&WT.medium=cpc&WT.content=623201114

The rest is up to you...:)

the drifter

I think the biggest mistake ive made is as i dropped weight i never adjusted my kcals

keane2097

Zamboni wrote: »

http://emea.microsoftstore.com/UK/en-GB/Microsoft/Excel-2010?WT.mc_id=pointitsem_Excel_buy&WT.srch=1&WT.term=microsoft+excel+purchase&WT.campaign=6065&WT.source=google&WT.medium=cpc&WT.content=623201114

The rest is up to you...:)

boo

rubadub

Mellor wrote: »

Really overweight people need to to either count calories, or follow a rigid paln than is essentialy passive calorie counting.

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

Really overweight people need to stop eating so much ****.

Problem is many do not know which foods are crap, or a waste of calories. Many will blindly believe ads, so are eating high sugar cereals thinking they are doing great. Or they just have notions in their heads, like cream crackers are OK since they are bland, they might have 3 cream crackers instead of 1 biscuit when the nutritional makeup & calories of the 2 are very similar. I had a mate wolfing down "go-ahead biscuits" as though you are pretty much free to eat as much as you want, its a brilliant marketing scam TBH. Slap "breakfast" in front of a bar title and you have a whole new market of "healthy eaters", just be sure to market the same bar in a different wrapper as junk or you will put off the macho men who would also not be seen dead drinking diet pepsi (but would gulp down pepsi MAX)

When you count calories you discover what foods are high, like burger buns can have more calories than the 1/4 pattie. Many hugely underestimate the calories in bread.

BraziliaNZ

well, I've put on a bit lately with moving abroad and losing routine etc, but when I was at my most "shredded", I had not a pick on me, and was still lifting heavy by normal standards i.e. 2 x bodyweight deadlift etc, at around 80kg, I'm about 83kg now so that's the difference for me being ripped or not, still in good shape now.

I don't know why but I never really needed that much protein, I have a small bit at lunch and a piece of meat or fish at dinner time. I only eat 3 meals, the first one being a small bowl of porridge, lunch being about 400kcal meat and veg and dinner being a stir fry or fish with 4 baby potatoes and a heap of brocolli.

I really think diet requirements vary for different people, I know people that eat far far more than me and are in decent shape and train longer and harder than me but can only lift about 2/3 of what I can lift. Can anyone explain why that is so?

Bog Butter

Hanley wrote: »

...you're never going to get there unless you can tell me exactly how many kcals, grams of protein, carbs and fat you're eating daily.

Discuss.

For me (a person who was quite fat - 18 to 13 1/4 stone) an overall good understanding of human body nutrition is essential for maintaining my weight. Once I educated myself on nutrition managing my weight became so much easier. I got the info through this site. Ta

I am now at a stage where I want to get rid of the last bit of weight and I want to get toned! I continue to refer to this forum, so thanks guys.

BraziliaNZ

Duck's hoop wrote: »

I reckoned as much.

I can understand the sacrifice element for competitors, specific goals, periods of time but going hungry on a permanent basis, on the off chance you might need to whip the top off seems a bit mad to me.

Yeah this started to worry me because when I was at my most ripped, I wasn't eating much, but as I was able to lift heavy I thought it was alright. I began to never be hungry, sometimes I'd eat one small meal a day if I went out after work etc, once I had a beer food would not be on the agenda. Got to the stage were people were worried about me because my cheekbones could burst balloons! I didn't care though as I was just getting off on seeing my obliques looking razor sharp.
I think once you get used to the hunger, you're just not hungry anymore, that's how it worked with me anyway.

Gummy Panda

the drifter wrote: »

I think the biggest mistake ive made is as i dropped weight i never adjusted my kcals

Thats a good point. I just realised that the other day when typing in bodyweight into a cardio machine. It dawned on me I had being using the same bodyweight measurement for the last 2 months when calculating.

TheZ

Anybody find that in winter they crave carbs much more than in the summer?

Linked to serotonin levels falling or just because its colder?

Gummy Panda

TheZ wrote: »

Anybody find that in winter they crave carbs much more than in the summer?

Linked to serotonin levels falling or just because its colder?

A friend in work said this when I suggested a winter cut. He said its hard to cut carbs during winter. He told me he'd rather do a cut during spring/summer then maintain/bulk for autumn/winter.

Never gave a reason though.

SteelyDanJalapeno

I'd guess it links back to whats in season at the time of year.

cmyk

I think you probably need to qualify what you meant by the thread title, I took it to mean hitting pretty low bodyfat from, I'm assuming an already slim %. People who are 20%+ probably just need to improve their food quality and cut out some of the crap. It's a bit of a different ballgame.

blah88

Gummy Panda wrote: »

A friend in work said this when I suggested a winter cut. He said its hard to cut carbs during winter. He told me he'd rather do a cut during spring/summer then maintain/bulk for autumn/winter.

Never gave a reason though.

It's definitely harder to cut during the Winter. Your body temperatute naturally drops when you're in a calorie deficit, so you feel the cold even more. You'll have less energy and your recovery from workouts will be impaired, making it a nightmare to get out of bed in the morning. Also, it's harder to motivate yourself because you know beach season is so far away. There's just something comforting about a good hearty feed of starchy carbs on these cold evenings aswell.

Having said that, I'm cutting pretty hard at the mo because I was away on a j1 during the Summer and piled on the pounds.