The 1%

hatrickpatrick

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Its explained here

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I think I already mentioned in this thread and linked to earlier last CSO SILC results which puts Ireland as below average (less inequality) than EU average, with UK and Germany being more unequal than this country

Do you still not understand that this isn't just about inequality with regard to living standards / wealth?

It's about inequality with regard to how the government treats people, and inequality with regard to who gets hit the hardest when austerity has to be introduced, and inequality with regard to whose crimes have a blind eye turned to them versus whose don't.

In other words, it's about the existence of a social elite which comes before everyone else in the government's eyes. Fuelled partially by social croneyism and partly by the nfluence of corporate money on politics.

In an equal society, there should be no VIPs whatsoever.
If Ireland was the Titanic, the 1% would be the people who get the VIP lifeboats with tons of extra space for stretching out in while the rest of the population drowns because there aren't enough ordinary lifeboats left for them.

ei.sdraob

You still shifting goalposts?

davoxx

yup, it uses averages ... i'm a bit sceptical so ... though they do use geometric mean for index compositions ...

as homer said "statistics can be used to prove anything, 90% of people know that"

but i don't think anyone is saying that usa or ireland are not developed countries ... so i fail to see the point of that site in this context.

hatrickpatrick

ei.sdraob wrote: »

You still shifting goalposts?

It's the same argument I've been using literally the entire time. 1% isn't just about wealth. It's about preferential treatment by the establishment in power, and appeasement with regard to corruption, incompetence, and criminality.

ei.sdraob

davoxx wrote: »

yup, it uses averages ... i'm a bit sceptical so ... though they do use geometric mean for index compositions ...

as homer said "statistics can be used to prove anything, 90% of people know that"

but i don't think anyone is saying that usa or ireland are not developed countries ... so i fail to see the point of that site in this context.

The average person in Ireland and US is doing much better and has better quality of life than 95% of worlds population.
Don't you think that's a bit "elitist" by your own reasoning?
If you want to see some real inequality then do a bit of travelling, the current globalism/capitalist system has lifted more people out of poverty faster than any of the socialist experiments ever managed to achieve.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

It's the same argument I've been using literally the entire time. 1% isn't just about wealth. It's about preferential treatment by the establishment in power, and appeasement with regard to corruption, incompetence, and criminality.

Then form a democratic party and democratically run on a platform of equality, anti-corruption and transparency

sitting in a tent having a spiffy will not bring your aims any closer.

antoobrien

ei.sdraob wrote: »

The average person in Ireland and US is doing much better and has better quality of life than 95% of worlds population.
Don't you think that's a bit "elitist" by your own reasoning?
If you want to see some real inequality then do a bit of travelling, the current globalism/capitalist system has lifted more people out of poverty faster than any of the socialist experiments ever managed to achieve.

Indeed. I was sent by the company to Bangalore & Pune 3 years ago (about this time of the year actually).

It was a real eye opener to see the sewerage system in large places a series of open drains, there was no electricity in large parts of the country, many people live in hovels made of cardboard (if they're lucky there's some wood in there for support and some plastic for the rainy season). Strangely, because I'd seen and heard all that before on tv it didn't bother me as much as getting handed bottled water in the office and told (by the locals) not to drink the water they do because it's not nearly as clean as ours is.

You'd be utterly amazed what we take for granted that these people would kill for.

Not to mention the fact that you were followed around by a crowd of beggars hoping for a few rupees (the exchange rate was 60/1 in our favor) because you were white (read assumed to be wealthy). A group of 10 of us got a good meal for the equivalent of €50. At the time most Irish people wouldn't have batted an eyelid at spend that for themselves on a night out. A 3 course meal was often about that on its own.

From what i witnessed at the weekend the so called disenfranchised youth still don't bat an eyelid at dropping large amounts of personal entertainment.

Bannasidhe

antoobrien wrote: »

Indeed. I was sent by the company to Bangalore & Pune 3 years ago (about this time of the year actually).

It was a real eye opener to see the sewerage system in large places a series of open drains, there was no electricity in large parts of the country, many people live in hovels made of cardboard (if they're lucky there's some wood in there for support and some plastic for the rainy season). Strangely, because I'd seen and heard all that before on tv it didn't bother me as much as getting handed bottled water in the office and told (by the locals) not to drink the water they do because it's not nearly as clean as ours is.

You'd be utterly amazed what we take for granted that these people would kill for.

Not to mention the fact that you were followed around by a crowd of beggars hoping for a few rupees (the exchange rate was 60/1 in our favor) because you were white (read assumed to be wealthy). A group of 10 of us got a good meal for the equivalent of €50. At the time most Irish people wouldn't have batted an eyelid at spend that for themselves on a night out. A 3 course meal was often about that on its own.

From what i witnessed at the weekend the so called disenfranchised youth still don't bat an eyelid at dropping large amounts of personal entertainment.

and I was in Switzerland this time last year and the Swiss were amazed that the Irish allow central government so much control over our lives and that Irish citizens do not have the right to propose a referendum.

You are not comparing like for like.

We do not live in India, or China, or Switzerland. We live in Ireland - a member state of the European Union which is meant to be a democratic republic where every citizen is equal. A meritocracy where each citizen should be able to advance based on their abilities, not who they know or how many cheques they can slip into brown envelopes.

Yet - every citizen is demonstrably not equal - a Golden Circle who are being given a lovely soft landing does indeed exist while middle income PAYE workers are being hammered with levies, charges, rising interest rates and yet more stealth taxes due to come on line. The over 400,000 who have become unemployed over the last few years are subject to an dehumanising bureaucratic Kafkaesque SW system while also being told how they are spongers while those who tell us how vital it is we make cuts cuts cuts are set for life with salaries well in excess of the average industrial wage and fabulous pension entitlements that cannot be changed for contractual reasons.

Just to use education as an example- the state is making it near impossible for autistic children to go to school as the supports necessary for this are being cut while at the same time funding private schools to the tune of 100 million a year. That is blatant preferential treatment in the allocation of limited resources.

We are talking about Ireland - not India. No-one would deny that each and everyone of us is bloody lucky to live where we do - but to argue that we should not complain about inequalities build into the very fabric of our society because we have it good when compared globally is bizarre.
By the same token women should shut up about equal rights and be glad they don't live in Saudi Arabia.

ei.sdraob

Bannasidhe wrote: »

and I was in Switzerland this time last year and the Swiss were amazed that the Irish allow central government so much control over our lives and that Irish citizens do not have the right to propose a referendum.

You are not comparing like for like.

We do not live in India, or China, or Switzerland. We live in Ireland - a member state of the European Union which is meant to be a democratic republic where every citizen is equal. A meritocracy where each citizen should be able to advance based on their abilities, not who they know or how many cheques they can slip into brown envelopes.

Yet - every citizen is demonstrably not equal - a Golden Circle who are being given a lovely soft landing does indeed exist while middle income PAYE workers are being hammered with levies, charges, rising interest rates and yet more stealth taxes due to come on line. The over 400,000 who have become unemployed over the last few years are subject to an dehumanising bureaucratic Kafkaesque SW system while also being told how they are spongers while those who tell us how vital it is we make cuts cuts cuts are set for life with salaries well in excess of the average industrial wage and fabulous pension entitlements that cannot be changed for contractual reasons.

Just to use education as an example- the state is making it near impossible for autistic children to go to school as the supports necessary for this are being cut while at the same time funding private schools to the tune of 100 million a year. That is blatant preferential treatment in the allocation of limited resources.

We are talking about Ireland - not India. No-one would deny that each and everyone of us is bloody lucky to live where we do - but to argue that we should not complain about inequalities build into the very fabric of our society because we have it good when compared globally is bizarre.
By the same token women should shut up about equal rights and be glad they don't live in Saudi Arabia.

Sitting in a tent would change the above how exactly?

Bannasidhe

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Sitting in a tent would change the above how exactly?

It is a visual manifestation of the growing discontent with the way the country is governed.

It may be symbolic but do not discount the power of symbols. The Camps also provide a recognised meeting point where people can come and discuss ideas, bitch and moan, and generally feel that there is a place where someone will listen to them.

Also - out of sight - out of mind. Many people have felt ignored by those in power for too long so they are either acting as visible beacons by living in tents or as supporters of those who live in the tents.

Hard to ignore a load of brightly coloured tents...

We now have Dame St, Cork, Galway, Waterford and Belfast - it does seem to be spreading ....:D

Bannasidhe

They are also doing more then just sitting in tents:

Occupy CORK
This morning we held a 'Teach-in' in AIB on South Mall. A local teacher held a class for a dozen primary school kids in the main lobby, to help publicize the connection between th fall in investment in the education system, and the shocking amounts of money been handed over to the international bond market.

http://www.facebook.com/occupycork/posts/296718007014162

Nor is it an Urban movement - this group are part of Occupy Cork

MEMBERS OF THE Ballyhea Bondholder Bailout group took their demonstrations to new levels today, creating a human roadblock to cause traffic chaos on the main Cork-Limerick road.
About 50 people gathered at Ballyhea at noon to protest against the payment of a US$1 billion Anglo Irish Bank bond tomorrow.
Following a march, the group sat down on the N20 Cork-Limerick road, blocking traffic completely for about 15 minutes.
One of the organisers, Diarmuid O’Flynn told TheJournal.ie that although they caused delays, they did not receive any abuse from drivers.
“Many people even gave us a thumbs up in support,” he said. “It was very gratifying.
“We have been marching against the bondholder bailout every week for 35 weeks but we could not let tomorrow pass without doing something special,” continued O’Flynn.
The group were heartened by today’s turnout and that most of the marchers decided to participate in the roadblock

http://www.thejournal.ie/no-to-bondholder-bailout-protesters-stop-traffic-in-cork-268888-Nov2011/

ei.sdraob

Bannasidhe wrote: »

We now have Dame St, Cork, Galway, Waterford and Belfast - it does seem to be spreading ....:D

Yet no attempts are made to register as a party and actually use the democratic system in place to democratically put your ideas/policies/aims to the people of the country :rolleyes:

davoxx

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Yet no attempts are made to register as a party and actually use the democratic system in place to democratically put your ideas/policies/aims to the people of the country :rolleyes:

because the current system does not work? if it did there would be no protest :rolleyes:

ei.sdraob

davoxx wrote: »

because the current system does not work? if it did there would be no protest :rolleyes:

And what is this new system your movement wants to force upon the population without democratically consulting the said population? :rolleyes:

Bannasidhe

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Yet no attempts are made to register as a party and actually use the democratic system in place to democratically put your ideas/policies/aims to the people of the country :rolleyes:

I can't understand if you are missing the point or have some aversion to getting the point.

The party political system as practised in this country does not work. Parliament is nothing more then a talking shop where, because of the Whip System, party political bank benchers exist only to vote the way they are told to. It is not democratic. It is not representative. Why - because all decisions are taken by the Cabinet based on policy document produced by unelected civil servants - not according to me, according to the well known lefty John Bruton

Former Taoiseach John Bruton made an interesting claim earlier this year, those civil servants effectively drove the policy themselves with the politicians merely the front-men who rubberstamped decisions.

http://www.examiner.ie/opinion/columnists/matt-cooper/our-overpaid-civil-servants-must-be-held-accountable-for-their-actions-166910.html#ixzz1cedQ3mNA

Men like Dermot McCarthy run our country - they are unelected and unaccountable

He served for 11 years as secretary general to the Government and to the Department of An Taoiseach and attended almost all Cabinet meetings during that period.

McCarthy was arguably one of the most powerful men in the country for the last decade and was one of the most important figures in the room when the disastrous bank guarantee was decided upon. He was there when the Government surrendered to the IMF/EU/ECB last November. He was instrumental in agreeing the unsustainable pay agreements reached with the public sector unions, for example, overseeing much of the process personally.

In that and other issues he has not just been involved in implementation, but has been deeply involved in formulating policy. He was regarded as very important in the Northern peace process. McCarthy has received some public testimonials, and is by repute a very able and hard working man, but we are being asked to take a lot on trust: he has never been available to account publicly for his actions.

http://www.examiner.ie/opinion/columnists/matt-cooper/our-overpaid-civil-servants-must-be-held-accountable-for-their-actions-166910.html

That is the so called democratic system you believe those who support the occupy movement should engage in? They do not believe it is a democratic system - they believe it is a closed shop controlled by an Inner circle of top tier Civil servants - and John Bruton (who I imagine has far more personal experience of the 'workings' of government then either you or I) agrees with the protester's view.

They do not want to join the 'party' - they want to take the party out of our government.

davoxx

ei.sdraob wrote: »

The average person in Ireland and US is doing much better and has better quality of life than 95% of worlds population.
Don't you think that's a bit "elitist" by your own reasoning?

not in the least .. do you actually understand what is meant by "elitist"? i think that you don't ...

ei.sdraob wrote: »

If you want to see some real inequality then do a bit of travelling, the current globalism/capitalist system has lifted more people out of poverty faster than any of the socialist experiments ever managed to achieve.

oh, that makes sense ... if you want to understand hardship, donate all your cash and possessions to charity and then try to travel ...

(i think you meant globalisation instead of globalism, as globalism is putting the world first over say us agenda ... )

the current globalisation/capitalist flawed joke has dumped more people in poverty faster than any of the socialist solutions ...

lets see according to you, the euro is not on breaking point ... the markets are all grand ... why are you here again?
why are banks in trouble? oh yeah ... socialists did something and stuff ...

do you really not have a better argument/point than your fundamentally flawed generic response? I've heard it too many times now ...

ei.sdraob

Bannasidhe wrote: »

They do not want to join the 'party' - they want to take the party out of our government.

And how do they know that the other 99.9% of people in this country want the same thing without asking them in a democratic manner

The hypocrisy of a small group wanting to ignore/sideline democracy and lead us into some socialist utopia thru' a revolution
while telling is that all current problems are caused by another small group of people is incredible!

davoxx

ei.sdraob wrote: »

And what is this new system your movement wants to force upon the population without democratically consulting the said population? :rolleyes:

force? what force?
who said it would not democratically consulting the said population?
just because you want to use it as an excuse does not make it so :rolleyes:

and it's not my movement, it's our movement ... i know that maybe hard to accept, but this is not driven by greed or the idea of only suiting a certain few in a golden circle ... it is driven to include everyone with the best possible outcome for all.

stop twisting things and saying things that are completely false, it really weakens your overall credibility as a poster here :rolleyes:

ei.sdraob

THE BOOK wrote:

Throughout recorded time, and probably since the end of the Neolithic Age,
there have been three kinds of people in the world, the High, the Middle,
and the Low. They have been subdivided in many ways, they have borne
countless different names, and their relative numbers, as well as their
attitude towards one another, have varied from age to age: but the
essential structure of society has never altered. Even after enormous
upheavals and seemingly irrevocable changes, the same pattern has always
reasserted itself, just as a gyroscope will always return to equilibrium,
however far it is pushed one way or the other

The aims of these three groups are entirely irreconcilable. The aim of
the High is to remain where they are. The aim of the Middle is to change
places with the High. The aim of the Low, when they have an aim--for it
is an abiding characteristic of the Low that they are too much crushed
by drudgery to be more than intermittently conscious of anything outside
their daily lives--is to abolish all distinctions and create a society in
which all men shall be equal.

Thus throughout history a struggle which is
the same in its main outlines recurs over and over again. For long periods
the High seem to be securely in power, but sooner or later there always
comes a moment when they lose either their belief in themselves or their
capacity to govern efficiently, or both. They are then overthrown by the
Middle, who enlist the Low on their side by pretending to them that they
are fighting for liberty and justice. As soon as they have reached their
objective, the Middle thrust the Low back into their old position of
servitude, and themselves become the High. Presently a new Middle group
splits off from one of the other groups, or from both of them, and the
struggle begins over again.

Why does this spring to mind, oh i don't know

davoxx

ei.sdraob wrote: »

And how do they know that the other 99.9% of people in this country want the same thing without asking them in a democratic manner

The hypocrisy of a small group wanting to ignore/sideline democracy and lead us into some socialist utopia thru' a revolution
while telling is that all current problems are caused by another small group of people is incredible!

ah using the "socialist" excuse again ... you have no idea please read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_system to understand that democracy has nothing to do with either capitalism or socialism.

thanks.

ei.sdraob

davoxx wrote: »

force? what force?
who said it would not democratically consulting the said population?
just because you want to use it as an excuse does not make it so :rolleyes:

and it's not my movement, it's our movement ... i know that maybe hard to accept, but this is not driven by greed or the idea of only suiting a certain few in a golden circle ... it is driven to include everyone with the best possible outcome for all.

So how exactly are you democratically "consulting" the population without having a political party putting their manifesto for people to decide on.

davoxx wrote: »

ah using the "socialist" excuse again ... you have no idea please read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_system to understand that democracy has nothing to do with either capitalism or socialism.

thanks.

Fine describe the future this semi organized mob has in mind for us

davoxx

ei.sdraob wrote: »

So how exactly are you democratically "consulting" the population without having a political party putting their manifesto for people to decide on.

everyone is welcome, including you.

ei.sdraob

davoxx wrote: »

everyone is welcome, including you.

Welcome to what? can I vote for your lot in the next elections??

davoxx

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Welcome to what? can I vote for your lot in the next elections??

i don't know can you? did you?

but you are still welcome if you want to come, the venue is dame street, you know where to find the 99% ...

Bannasidhe

ei.sdraob wrote: »

And what is this new system your movement wants to force upon the population without democratically consulting the said population? :rolleyes:

Well - :rolleyes: - we could -:rolleyes: - adopt a few of the provision used by the German's -:rolleyes:-

From the Hesse Citizen Test http://www.expatica.com/de/essentials_moving_to/essentials/the-hesse-citizenship-test-the-answers-29063_10151.html

34. From whom does all state authority emanate in the Federal Republic of Germany? Which advantages does this have for citizens?
Answer: From the people. (Article 20, paragraph 2 of the constitution reads: "All state authority emanates from the people. It is exercised by the people by means of elections and voting and by separate legislative, executive and judicial organs.")

38. It is guaranteed in the constitution that all people are equal before the law. Explain this basic principle.

Suggested answer: "The context of Blind equality is in the application of impartial judgment concerning multiple persons (or objects), usually in the application of human law by removing consideration of irrelevant attributes so that no partiality is held for any person. […] The inability to discern between several persons or objects produces a blind equality of consideration and treatment. While discernment threatens impartial judgment, blind equality ensures impartiality, fairness, and equality. Blind equality ensures justice by preventing government from legislating laws which create inequality among, and thus oppression of, its citizens."

52. Under which circumstances can political parties and associations be banned in the Federal Republic of Germany? Would you still support a party or association even if it was banned? Under which circumstances?

Suggested answer: Political parties can be banned if they are unconstitutional. Article 21, paragraph 2 of the Basic Law: "Parties which, by reason of their aims or the behaviour of their adherents, seek or impair or destroy the free democratic basic order or to endanger the existence of the Federal Republic of Germany shall be unconstitutional. The Federal Constitutional Court decides on the question of unconstitutionality."
However Germans have the right to resist if a party ban is deemed to be unconstitutional. Article 20, paragraph 4 of the Basic Law: "All Germans shall have the right to resist any person seeking to abolish this constitutional order, should no other remedy be possible."

58. The "Grundsatz des freien Mandats" ("principle of the free mandate") applies to members of parliament. What does this mean?

Suggested answer: Article 38 , paragraph 1 of the Basic Law: "[Members of the German Bundestag] shall be representatives of the whole people, not bound by orders or instructions, and responsible only to their conscience."

All citizens can go to special parliamentary committees with their complaints and suggestions. What are these representative committees called on the national and state level?

Answer: Petitionsausschuss (petitions committee)

The Federal Republic of Germany is a Rechtsstaat (state under the rule of law). What does Rechtsstaat mean?
Suggested answer: "Rechtsstaat is a term […] which literally means a "law-based state" or "constitutional state". It is a state in which the exercise of governmental power is constrained by the law, and is often tied to the Anglo-American concept of the rule of law. In the Rechtsstaat, the power of the state is limited in order to protect citizens from the arbitrary exercise of authority."


Dunno about you - But THAT smells like democracy to me :rolleyes:.

ei.sdraob

davoxx wrote: »

i don't know can you? did you?

but you are still welcome if you want to come, the venue is dame street, you know where to find the 99% ...

How do you know that you are speaking for the 99% (of what exactly?) when you have not democratically put your ideas (however vague they are) to the people of this country.

You claim not to ignore the democratic process, but its becoming very apparent that you dont even understand what it is.

Bannasidhe

ei.sdraob wrote: »

How do you know that you are speaking for the 99% (of what exactly?) when you have not democratically put your ideas (however vague they are) to the people of this country.

You claim not to ignore the democratic process, but its becoming very apparent that you dont even understand what it is.

Please explain how our current system of government as described by former Taoiseach John Bruton is democratic? Since you understand democracy so well an all....;)

Spokes of Glory

ei.sdraob wrote: »

How do you know that you are speaking for the 99% (of what exactly?)

Second this, and been asking the same question of ODS with no answer. Bugs the hell out of me to have this organisation claiming to speak their woolly nonsense on my behalf.

Spokes

ei.sdraob

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Please explain how our current system of government as described by former Taoiseach John Bruton is democratic? Since you understand democracy so well an all....;)

Starting from definition

Democracy is generally defined as a form of government in which all the people have an equal say in the decisions that affect their lives. Ideally, this includes equal (and more or less direct) participation in the proposal, development and passage of legislation into law. It can also encompass social, economic and cultural conditions that enable the free and equal practice of political self-determination.

We all have a say in decisions that affect our lives when we choose a government, president and every so often have referendums (direct democracy) as is set out in our constitution (which has many of the similar points of the German one btw)



and getting down to a more refined definition of what we have here (Representative + Constitutional democracy with a sprinkle of direct democracy via referendum mechanism)

Representative democracy involves the selection of government officials by the people being represented. If the head of state is also democratically elected then it is called a democratic republic. The most common mechanisms involve election of the candidate with a majority or a plurality of the votes.

Liberal democracy, also known as constitutional democracy, is a common form of representative democracy. According to the principles of liberal democracy, elections should be free and fair, and the political process should be competitive. Political pluralism is usually defined as the presence of multiple and distinct political parties.

Now please explain how we the people of Ireland can ever vote for a bunch of hippies in tents when those people choose not to put themselves and their aims forward in a democratic election.

davoxx

ei.sdraob wrote: »

How do you know that you are speaking for the 99% (of what exactly?) when you have not democratically put your ideas (however vague they are) to the people of this country.

firstly, we know that a lot of people are not happy, the 99% represent those people.
secondly, if you have no idea what they are the 99% of, you have wasted everyone's time in this thread. you should go and read up on it. if you disagree with what they claim to represent, that is a different matter.
thirdly, the ideas are being put democratically to people, nobody is being refused at dame street. if you don't want to make the effort to go down and see for yourself, i think that your views on the subject are worthless as you clearly have 100% no idea what this is about and keep spouting the "socialist failure" nonsense. go down, have a chat, then come back and we can talk.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

You claim not to ignore the democratic process

when have i ignored it? i can state that i have not ignored the democratic process.
please address the point, rather than trying to attack the poster ...

ei.sdraob wrote: »

but its becoming very apparent that you dont even understand what it is.

please, you've shown several times that the concept of forms of government vs economic systems completely eludes you. for you to then say that i have no idea is very poor form, and shows that you've lost this argument and have been posting for the sake of argument.

also you need to calm down, i am not the entire 99% nor am i their spokesperson.

antoobrien

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Hard to ignore a load of brightly coloured tents...

We now have Dame St, Cork, Galway, Waterford and Belfast - it does seem to be spreading ....:D

They're considering disbanding the temporary halting site in galway. I was home last weekend, they don't have much support, mostly gawkers. I wonder what'll happen when the Dale farm lads come around and pitch up beside them....