Irish language and schools?

Oranage2

A topic that seemed to be missed by the Atheists and Agnostics is the way we're taught to greet each other in the Irish language.

Dia duit - God be with you
Dia is Muire duit - God and Mary be with you
Dia is Miuire is Padraig duit - God Mary and st Patrick be with you.


Well does anybody else these greetings should be changed?

People from other religions and cultures shouldnt be made greet each other in what is a Catholic greeting.

Also should non believers be forced to greet each other by saying 'may god be with you'?

Prehaps the syllabus should be changed to a simple 'haigh' so nobody is offended?

I think that's a bit much

AhSureTisGrand

Doesn't goodbye mean "God be with you"?

Enkidu

We could do what the Bards did and greet each other in long complimentary poetic verses.

Coriolanus

I don't see the need, any more than I see the need to change the name of wodens day or thors day.

Dades

You could promote "Bia duit!" instead.

Food be with you, people!

Dades

Also, I'd just like say, the first poster who comes onto this thread complaining about how militant atheists now want the language changed to suit them - without reading the actual responses - will be beaten with the mod stick.

eyescreamcone

You could use
Conas ta tu?

And the reply
Taim go maith...buichas le dia
Doh!!!

El_Duderino 09

Dades wrote: »

You could promote "Bia duit!" instead.

Food be with you, people!

Funny enough in Cambodia they say "Sua s’dai, “Hello,” followed by Nham bay howie nov? or “Have you eaten?” For the rest of the day, if you see someone a second or third time you don’t need to bother with any greeting–other than inquiring about their lunch or dinner."

I wondered about the OP's question and I think Dia Duit is, dare i say it, cute.

kylith

AFAIK 'Hallo' is a perfectly valid greeting as Gaeilge.

Oranage2

kylith wrote: »

AFAIK 'Hallo' is a perfectly valid greeting as Gaeilge.

Indeed but what if the person lands you with thebombshell of a greeting "dia duit" first?

Person A: "Dia duit"
Me: "Hallo"

Person A would think I retarded or something.

I just think with growing demand for non religous schools that we should be consistant across the board.

d.a.r.r.a.g.h

I don't think may people use the greeting in any way more than a way to say "Hello". I don't think people should recognise its origins in the context we use it today, but rather we should just accept it as a convention of our lanuage.

It might interest you to know that the word "Goodbye" in Enlgish came about as an abbreviation for "God Be With Ye".. see the link? Today, nobody recognises the origins of this word, but rather it is just used in the context we intend, to say bye to soemone.

Maybe it should be just accepted, and left at that...

Dades

d.a.r.r.a.g.h wrote: »

Maybe it should be just accepted, and left at that...

Without doubt.

Knight who says Meh

Dades wrote: »

Also, I'd just like say, the first poster who comes onto this thread complaining about how militant atheists now want the language changed to suit them - without reading the actual responses - will be beaten with the mod stick.

I just pray that some Irish speaking Muslamic militants dont fly planes into Spanish Arch or Eyre Square in protest

dlofnep

I use "bhuel" as a way of saying hello in Gaeilge. Same as I use "well" to say hello in English. I never use Dia Duit - Not because I have an issue with it, I just prefer to use bhuel.

MagicMarker

I can't speak Irish so I don't care.

kylith

dlofnep wrote: »

I use "bhuel" as a way of saying hello in Gaeilge. Same as I use "well" to say hello in English.

You from Waterford?

dlofnep

kylith wrote: »

You from Waterford?

I am.

byhookorbycrook

conas tá cursaí?
conas tá agat?
aon scéal?

And we really need to stop people saying bless you if someone sneezes too :rolleyes:

Pace2008

I don't think many atheists really give a **** about these colloquialisms with religious references, except in the kind of cases when people genuinely "thank God" for their relative's successful triple bypass, rather than the guy who spent a good chunk of his life learning how to perform the surgery.

dlofnep

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

conas tá cursaí?
conas tá agat?

I use these all the time (with tánn) - rarely hear them outside Munster though.. People tend to look at you weird and try to give you a grammar lesson on the correct way to say "conas atá tú"..

Oranage2

d.a.r.r.a.g.h wrote: »

I don't think may people use the greeting in any way more than a way to say "Hello". I don't think people should recognise its origins in the context we use it today, but rather we should just accept it as a convention of our lanuage.

It might interest you to know that the word "Goodbye" in Enlgish came about as an abbreviation for "God Be With Ye".. see the link? Today, nobody recognises the origins of this word, but rather it is just used in the context we intend, to say bye to soemone.

Maybe it should be just accepted, and left at that...

Well goodbye may origanally mean god be with you but now has lost all meaning - Dia duit is a direct translation for god be with you.

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

conas tá cursaí?
conas tá agat?
aon scéal?

And we really need to stop people saying bless you if someone sneezes too :rolleyes:

I speak irish so I'm not looking for an alternative - I just dont think it's fair say a muslim being forced to say god and mary be with you.


Great point about bless you though, I myself use the German word 'Gesundheit' for when somebody sneezes

whatdoicare

I don't speak Irish since I left school - so it doesn't really matter to me. I'd rather use my energies to change issues that effect me on a daily basis and issues that effect my childrens' future.

I just use good morning (maidin mhaith) or good evening (tráthnóna mhaith) when my Irish teacher says dia duit
she looks at me funnier each time

she also says 'buichos le...'(thanks be to....) sometimes waiting for me to finish the sentence
I just respond with something like 'mise'

might try flying spaghetti monster next time

Rasb

Deleted User wrote: »

I just use good morning (maidin mhaith) or good evening (tráthnóna mhaith) when my Irish teacher says dia duit
she looks at me funnier each time

she also says 'buichos le...'(thanks be to....) sometimes waiting for me to finish the sentence
I just respond with something like 'mise'

might try flying spaghetti monster next time

"buichos le ollphéist spaghetti eitilte" should get funny looks in any classroom

d.a.r.r.a.g.h

Oranage2 wrote: »

Well goodbye may origanally mean god be with you but now has lost all meaning - Dia duit is a direct translation for god be with you.

One could argue that goodbye is still an abbreviation of "God be with you"...

But the point I'm trying to make is that the phrase "Dia Duit" isn't used in that context anymore. Granted, its origins are religious, but that origin is a sign of the cultural history of our language and our country. Today, in a modern and diverse society, the phrase doesn't have any religions implications. It is nothing mroe than the natural way that many people say "hello".

Of course, if speakers gradually began to use more secular greetings like "haigh", naturally, that is acceptable. Language is always changing and evolving to adapt to its environment, but I don't think people need to consciously change their own greetings. The phrase is just hard-wired into your brain, much like "hello" or "hi", and that isn't a thing this is changed because rules are changed. Being hard-wired in that nature, people just don't thing of it in a religious light.

I'm sure even if you're an athiest, you still say "Oh my god" every now and again, or the odd "jesus". There are no religious implications in this, it's just how people express surprise.

I think that even if you changed the rule, things would still persist as is. Rule doesn't change the innate.

recedite

dlofnep wrote: »

I use "bhuel" as a way of saying hello in Gaeilge. Same as I use "well" to say hello in English. I never use Dia Duit - Not because I have an issue with it, I just prefer to use bhuel.

Likewise, I just use "hausidh goín" as gaeilge, same as I use "Hows it going" in English. No issues with the "Dia dhuit" really though, its just not my style.

ShooterSF

I'd much rather we just stopped forcing children to study Irish at all.

Enkidu

ShooterSF wrote: »

I'd much rather we just stopped forcing children to study Irish at all.

That's a separate issue to what Irish-speaking atheists should say in conversation though isn't it?

d.a.r.r.a.g.h

d.a.r.r.a.g.h wrote: »

I'm sure even if you're an athiest, you still say "Oh my god" every now and again, or the odd "jesus". There are no religious implications in this, it's just how people express surprise.

I say jesus or jebus the odd time
I never say 'thank god' or 'oh my god'
it just feels weird and wrong thanking and praising somebody who I believe is non-existent, for something they had no part in.

e.g -fuair me A sa scrudu. Buichos le dia!
-nil dheannan dia an staidear!

I do know a couple of other atheists though who are all the time thanking god.
guess they dont see any religious implications

heard this last week amongst two people I know
catholic: are you an atheist?
atheist: no. im somebody.....who would like to believe that theres a god but thinks that its very improbable
had to hold in my laughter

robindch

Allah duit?

kylith

Oranage2 wrote: »

Indeed but what if the person lands you with thebombshell of a greeting "dia duit" first?

Person A: "Dia duit"
Me: "Hallo"

Person A would think I retarded or something.

I just think with growing demand for non religous schools that we should be consistant across the board.

I wouldn't say so. If I said "good afternoon" to someone and they responded with "hello" I wouldn't think they were mentally deficient. I'd take it as 'I hear and acknowledge your greeting'.

dlofnep wrote: »

I am.

Me to. Well!

dlofnep

kylith wrote: »

I wouldn't say so. If I said "good afternoon" to someone and they responded with "hello" I wouldn't think they were mentally deficient. I'd take it as 'I hear and acknowledge your greeting'.


Me to. Well!

Bhuel

ShooterSF

Enkidu wrote: »

That's a separate issue to what Irish-speaking atheists should say in conversation though isn't it?

Oh it is, but it's hard not to at least have it pointed out here. Imagine two friends began a conversation as such,

Friend 1 "I'm gonna go on a murderous rampage with an AK-47"
Friend 2 "M-16 would be much better..."
Debate over which gun is better for a bit before turning to you for your input. If you were strongly against murdering rampages you'd at least qualify your response with that fact even if it were off topic before going into preferences over a particular gun right?

As such as I've already given my qualifier, I think if you are to teach children Irish you should teach it as it's spoke by it's fluent speakers as the goal of any language is the successful communication of ideas/feelings/etc to another person. Language after all is just a tool and if a person understands that you simply mean "courteous greeting" then it has done it's job regardless of original meanings or translated meanings of words.

Oranage2

ShooterSF wrote: »

Oh it is, but it's hard not to at least have it pointed out here. Imagine two friends began a conversation as such,

Friend 1 "I'm gonna go on a murderous rampage with

Stopped reading there it just got too stupid.


Anyway I guess atheism and agnosticism is just for Christmas -

Coriolanus

By being atheist or agnostic you aren't required to oppose each and every manifestation of theism. That would be anti-theism, and while the two (or three?) concepts are found in bed together often enough, they don't have to be.

ShooterSF

Oranage2 wrote: »

Stopped reading there it just got too stupid.

Shame you missed out on the point so. I might even have been agreeing with you (I wasn't) but you'll never know now (unless you read the combination of letters in the previous set of braces).

Anyway I guess atheism and agnosticism is just for Christmas -

Atheism has nothing do with our outlooks on language so both of us can still be atheists 365 days a year while disagreeing on everything else. Atheism doesn't have rules on how you should feel about other things.

Can I ask do you find yourself speaking Irish a lot btw? I don't so maybe that's colouring my opinion. Perhaps you do and it's a bigger annoyance?

ShooterSF

Also as an aside OP, thought I'd seen your username here not so long ago, hope you don't mind me referencing previous points you have made. On both the social welfare/Jebus pic thread and the time to ban the angelus thread you slated fellow atheists for wanting to impose nanny states and made comparisons to china whilst suggesting a live and let live belief. Now some posters don't agree with your desire to force schools to stop teaching the phrase "Dia duit" (sp? as I said, don't speak Irish) and you mock them for not being atheist enough?!

Oranage2

ShooterSF wrote: »

Also as an aside OP, thought I'd seen your username here not so long ago, hope you don't mind me referencing previous points you have made. On both the social welfare/Jebus pic thread and the time to ban the angelus thread you slated fellow atheists for wanting to impose nanny states and made comparisons to china whilst suggesting a live and let live belief. Now some posters don't agree with your desire to force schools to stop teaching the phrase "Dia duit" (sp? as I said, don't speak Irish) and you mock them for not being atheist enough?!

Exactly and id prefere you asked my permission next time you quote me out of context!

Galvasean

Oranage2 wrote: »

Stopped reading there it just got too stupid.

Followed by:

Oranage2 wrote: »

Anyway I guess atheism and agnosticism is just for Christmas -

A wittier poster than I could probably say something funny about this juxtaposition.

Dave!

As mentioned before, all languages have phrases and words with religious origins. I don't think it's necessary to cleanse our history or etymology of religious references. I'd argue (as others have) that 'Dia dhuit' has about as much religious significance as 'Thursday' does in relation to Thor. Nobody says it as a religious blessing, it's universally known as a greeting.

ShooterSF

Oranage2 wrote: »

Exactly and id prefere you asked my permission next time you quote me out of context!

When did I quote you out of context?

Oranage2

Galvasean wrote: »

Followed by:



A wittier poster than I could probably say something funny about this juxtaposition.

Such a shame you lack wit, could have done with a good laugh.

Galvasean

Oranage2 wrote: »

Such a shame you lack wit, could have done with a good laugh.

Indeed. It's weird that ShooterSF thanked the post. He must have imagined what a wittier poster would have posted.

ShooterSF

Galvasean wrote: »

Indeed. It's weird that ShooterSF thanked the post. He must have imagined what a wittier poster would have posted.

Just to put your mind at ease, I was intent on pointing out the wonderful coincidence (NOT IRONY!) of having my post called stupid and followed by that comment but couldn't come up with anything witty

Though I'm beginning to suspect our friend is actually a tremendous rival of literary license.

robindch

Oranage2 wrote: »

Such a shame you lack wit

Projection will get you nowhere here, my friend.

Run along now and be a good boy/girl before one of us mighty mods has to reach for the clue-stick!

Turtwig

robindch wrote: »

Projection will get you nowhere here, my friend.

Run along now and be a good boy/girl before one of us mighty mods has to reach for the clue-stick!

Oddly enough when I first read that I thought it said glue stick and I was thinking oohhhhhhh

Frowzy

4 pages, really?????

Greeting: Ta failte romhat
Goodbye: Slan Leat

If someone sneezes just say "Jeepers, that came from your toes!"

Beruthiel

How did the Pagans greet each other before st. Pat landed on our doorstep?

Coriolanus

Dagda duit. Dagda agus danu duit.
Possibly.

Oranage2

robindch wrote: »

Projection will get you nowhere here, my friend.

Run along now and be a good boy/girl before one of us mighty mods has to reach for the clue-stick!

My apoligies, I didnt mean to offend your boy/girlfriend.

Anyway I take it by your run along comment that I'm not wanted around these parts so I wont post again here. I see grown up discussion about anything other than the 'Angelus' is welcome.

I'll be off so, I'll leave the don't have a clue about Athiesm to the professionals!

God bless,

Oranage2.