Scottish Independence ( 'Independence Lite' )

Batsy

getz wrote: »

all three parties have told their MPs that if they vote to have a referendum on the EU,they will be sacked from the parties,if scotland gains independance,they would automatically be out of the EU,and would have to re-apply ,and be tested to see if they match the EU standards.

I doubt, when there is such huge and overwhelming support for a referendum on EU membership amongst the people of the UK, that any of the three main parties will sack any of their MPs who decide to vote for a referendum. Not if they don't want to suffer badly in the polls and in elections. Doing such a thing will only show to the British people the utter contempt that those parties therefore hold for them, their views and British democracy.

getz

Victor wrote: »

the suggestion is that Scottish oil subsidises the UK.

all they would get is a equal fraction of the overall profit ,which is more than swallowed up by share of debt,and there is not that much oil left in the fields,that is why the scottish parliament propose to have large windfarms built in the north sea,for when it runs out,

Batsy

who the fug wrote: »

Doubt that is going to happen the far right of the Tory party is not very attractive with the spotlight on it, so can’t see them winning a majority

Would welcome one though to put this issue to bed then maybe the party could start to function again

What makes you think only the far right of any party will vote for a referendum on leaving the EU?

mike65

Davidth88 wrote: »

The currently have the advantage ? of a Scottish Parliament that can cause the English to look with envy at free prescriptions , free third level education and other benefits.

Not quite the case, if you are Scottish third level is free, if you are from the rest of the UK you pay a certain amount and if you are from further afield you pay more again.

This policy is being challenged by Public Interest Lawyers as contravening UK and European laws

getz

Batsy wrote: »

I doubt, when there is such huge and overwhelming support for a referendum on EU membership amongst the people of the UK, that any of the three main parties will sack any of their MPs who decide to vote for a referendum. Not if they don't want want to suffer badly in the polls and in elections. Doing such a thing will only show to the British people the utter contempt that those parties therefore hold for them and their views.

yes it was on yesterdays news, they will not hold a open vote ,the whips and the threats are out, but what the alternative ?,all the other parties are loonies,

Batsy

mike65 wrote: »

Not quite the case, if you are Scottish third level is free, if you are from the rest of the UK you pay a certain amount and if you are from further afield you pay more again.

That's nonsense.

Scottish universities charge English students to study at them but students from the rest of the EU are able to study at Scottish universities for free.

EU students also pay nothing because EU law means that they must be treated in the same way as home students. That law, though, doesn't extend to England, apparently, because England is part of the UK like Scotland rather than a separate state.

If that sounds unfair and discriminatory towards the English that's because it is.

Batsy

getz wrote: »

yes it was on yesterdays news, they will not hold a open vote ,the whips and the threats are out, but what the alternative ?,all the other parties are loonies,

They wouldn't dare do such a thing. Not if they want to be ousted from power at the next election.

who the fug

Batsy wrote: »

What makes you think only the far right of any party will vote for a referendum on leaving the EU?

Can you see Ken Clarke voting for it?

Monty Burnz

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Don't forget Scotland has a lot of oil.

Had a lot of oil.

Batsy

who the fug wrote: »

Can you see Ken Clarke voting for it?

It seems to me that those pro-EU MPs who will vote against having a referendum on whether or not to leave the EU would do so because they are scared as to what the answer might be.

They are cowards who care nothing about the views of the British people.

getz

Batsy wrote: »

It seems to me that those pro-EU MPs who will vote against having a referendum on whether or not to leave the EU would do so because they are scared as to what the answer might be.

They are cowards who care nothing about the views of the British people.

its now on the BBC news,the E U referendum debate has been moved,so david cameron can attend,the three big parties at westminster have told their MPs to vote against a motion calling for a referendum to be held on UK membership of the EU,stewart jackson tory MP,who is the PPS for northern ireland,said he will risk his post over EU vote

Fratton Fred

Batsy wrote: »

The EDL is not the National Front. The National Front and the EDL are two completely different entities. The National Front is a far-right political party, still in existence, which put up 18 candidates for the 2010 General Election.

The EDL is a non-racist organisation - it's not even a political party - which campaigns against the rise of Islamism, Islamic terrorism and Sharia Law in England which has Muslim members.

There were a lot of NF supporting skinheads in my school, most of them are now in the EDL.

The EDL is not racist, but it is anti black, anti muslim, anti immigration and anti everything else that is not white anglo saxon.

Its not racist though.

Batsy

getz wrote: »

its now on the BBC news,the E U referendum debate has been moved,so david cameron can attend,the three big parties at westminster have told their MPs to vote against a motion calling for a referendum to be held on UK membership of the EU,stewart jackson tory MP,who is the PPS for northern ireland,said he will risk his post over EU vote

However, I've just found this:

Tories' euro-mutiny spreads: Cameron aides may quit to join rebellion on EU referendum

• Downing Street is warned that five ministerial aides could quit if a three-line whip is imposed
• Ed Miliband will order Labour MPs to oppose vote
• But Labour face divisions too as a senior MP vows to defy the order
  

By James Chapman and Jason Groves

The Daily Mail


Several junior members of the Government are threatening to resign as almost a third of Tory backbenchers join a mutiny against David Cameron over Britain’s future in Europe.

The Prime Minister is scrambling to hammer out a compromise as dozens of Conservatives defy him by signing up to a Commons motion backing a referendum on EU membership, with several ministerial aides telling colleagues they are ready to quit.


Campaigners are furious at Mr Cameron’s last-minute decision to bring forward the debate to Monday.

Meanwhile, the row is set to cause ructions within Labour ranks as well, a senior MP warned today.

Graham Stringer accused leader Ed Miliband of making a 'mistake' by subjecting the party to a three-line whip on Monday's vote.

The former Labour whip said he will defy the order for MPs to oppose the proposals, arguing it was time people were 'given a choice'.

Mr Miliband's claims a national poll on the issue will be a 'distraction' at a time when the UK should be focused on the economy.

Downing Street believes the presence of Mr Cameron and William Hague, who are out of the country later in the week, will help persuade wavering MPs to back the Government.


Mr Cameron, who may meet rebel MPs on Monday, is likely to pledge to renegotiate Britain’s relationship with Europe at some future date – probably when a new EU treaty is discussed – but reject any possibility of a referendum until after 2015.


There is bewilderment among the Prime Minister’s colleagues about why he has chosen to pick a defining fight over a backbench debate inspired by a public petition, with no binding impact on government policy.

Several members of the Cabinet are understood to be deeply unhappy about Downing Street’s decision to impose a three-line whip – the toughest possible instruction to MPs on how to vote – and threaten any members of the Government who will not fall into line with the sack.

Tory whips have warned Downing Street that up to five ministerial aides could quit their posts on Monday in protest at the imposition of a three-line whip. There were rumours last night that one junior minister is also considering his position.

Peterborough MP Stewart Jackson yesterday became the first member of the Government to declare publicly that he will quit to vote for a referendum.

Mr Jackson, Parliamentary Private Secretary to the Northern Ireland Secretary, Owen Paterson, said the Government was wrong to impose a three-line whip.

‘I will vote in favour of the motion and in so doing, I will very likely relinquish my position,’ he added. ‘That will disappoint me, but . . . this is a question of putting country and constituency first.’

By yesterday morning the referendum motion had been signed by 76 MPs, including 60 Conservatives – roughly one third of the backbench party.

Signatories include the influential chairman of the Commons culture committee, John Whittingdale, former leadership contender David Davis, the chairman of the backbench 1922 Committee, Graham Brady, and former Cabinet minister John Redwood.

Mr Redwood was the most senior to declare publicly that he will defy Mr Cameron.


But, to the alarm of Downing Street, the list of supporters includes dozens of new MPs, who are normally fiercely loyal to the leadership.

Up to half a dozen more Tories were expected to sign up overnight.

One minister said Mr Cameron had so infuriated the 2010 intake of MPs by appointing Chloe Smith, 29, as a Treasury minister ahead of colleagues seen as more capable, that many would use the EU vote to ‘fight back’.

Other signatories to the motion, which proposes allowing voters to decide between staying in the EU, leaving or renegotiating Britain’s membership, include all eight Democratic Unionist MPs and eight Labour MPs, among them the former Europe minister Keith Vaz.

All three main parties look set to impose a three-line whip to vote against an EU referendum, despite all having supported one at various times in recent years.

Mr Miliband said a referendum was ‘not the right thing for Britain’.

And Nick Clegg, who campaigned at the last election for a referendum on Europe, risked charges of hypocrisy by imposing a three-line whip on his MPs as well.




Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2051139/EU-referendum-Tory-mutiny-spreads-Cameron-aides-quit-join-rebellion.html#ixzz1bQJhnmfo

getz

Fratton Fred wrote: »

There were a lot of NF supporting skinheads in my school, most of them are now in the EDL.

The EDL is not racist, but it is anti black, anti muslim, anti immigration and anti everything else that is not white anglo saxon.

Its not racist though.

now you have pointed them out,i have seen a lot of them marching around blackpool singing racist songs and chanting,but i always believed they were scotsmen on holiday

meglome

getz wrote: »

its now on the BBC news,the E U referendum debate has been moved,so david cameron can attend,the three big parties at westminster have told their MPs to vote against a motion calling for a referendum to be held on UK membership of the EU,stewart jackson tory MP,who is the PPS for northern ireland,said he will risk his post over EU vote

First day I heard about the referendum I thought the MP's would vote against having one.

I have a feeling you and batty will disagree but the lack of honesty about the EU is the biggest problem with UK's relationship with the EU. Too much finger pointing and agendas (like the Daily Mail) and very little honesty about just how good for the UK the EU is. There's a part of me that hopes the UK does vote to leave and let them suffer the consequences of their nationalist bull****.

View

Batsy wrote: »

It seems to me that those pro-EU MPs who will vote against having a referendum on whether or not to leave the EU would do so because they are scared as to what the answer might be.

Much more likely is - that with other more pressing political business (e.g. the economy) - they can think of better things to do than hold a referendum.

The electorate didn't get too excited about changing the electoral system and that is a lot more immediate to them than having to decide, in the midst of a major recession, whether to leave the EU or not. The politicians probably guess that when push comes to shove the electorate wouldn't be in a rush to leave.

who the fug

meglome wrote: »

First day I heard about the referendum I thought the MP's would vote against having one.

I have a feeling you and batty will disagree but the lack of honesty about the EU is the biggest problem with UK's relationship with the EU. Too much finger pointing and agendas (like the Daily Mail) and very little honesty about just how good for the UK the EU is. There's a part of me that hopes the UK does vote to leave and let them suffer the consequences of their nationalist bull****.

I think the main problem goes back to the seventies, when there seems to have been this collective head in the sand (or conspiracy) by both Labour and the Tories about the political agenda of Europe.

In national school, the books always said that the long term aim of Europe was a political union, people the same age as me in the UK say this was never on the agenda

We are not beggers in europe yet, so we can have out Nationalist Bull**** agenda if you please

meglome

who the fug wrote: »

I think the main problem goes back to the seventies, when there seems to have been this collective head in the sand (or conspiracy) by both Labour and the Tories about the political agenda of Europe.

As I said there is a lack of honest debate. But let's not forget the the UK was glad of their membership when they joined, they needed to join as things were not rosy economically.

who the fug wrote: »

In national school, the books always said that the long term aim of Europe was a political union, people the same age as me in the UK say this was never on the agenda

Well again the EU has always openly said it's about more than economic union, it's not a secret. It's in the treaties for all to see. How far it eventually goes is up to the people of the EU. No one has ever been forced to do anything.

who the fug wrote: »

We are not beggers in europe yet, so we can have out Nationalist Bull**** agenda if you please

Nope not suggesting you are. But I am saying the UK has gained a lot from EU membership and it's a pity there are so many vested interests the message fails to get out.

Fratton Fred

As we are on the subject of EU referendums, how many have passed and how many have failed.

I remember Maastricht was rejected by the French and Danes, so subsequent referendums were cancelled. Then Lisbon was initially rejected by the Irish.

It would appear that the people are talking, buy the governments aren't listening.

getz

Fratton Fred wrote: »

As we are on the subject of EU referendums, how many have passed and how many have failed.

I remember Maastricht was rejected by the French and Danes, so subsequent referendums were cancelled. Then Lisbon was initially rejected by the Irish.

It would appear that the people are talking, buy the governments aren't listening.

you are on the money when you say that fred,the people do not like the political side of the EU,it was all good and rosey in its early days, but in the end it not about democracy is it ,all the man in the street can see is the UK giving hand outs to the EU members,who have f...d up their own economy ,

Batsy

meglome wrote: »

First day I heard about the referendum I thought the MP's would vote against having one.

I have a feeling you and batty will disagree but the lack of honesty about the EU is the biggest problem with UK's relationship with the EU. Too much finger pointing and agendas (like the Daily Mail) and very little honesty about just how good for the UK the EU is. There's a part of me that hopes the UK does vote to leave and let them suffer the consequences of their nationalist bull****.

The EU has NO benefit for the UK whatsoever.

Broxi_Bear_Eire

People are going on about this as though a referendum on Scotland's independence is imminent it's not Salmond no later than yesterday reiterated that they were in no rush to put the matter of independence to the Scottish people

woodoo

Broxi_Bear_Eire wrote: »

People are going on about this as though a referendum on Scotland's independence is imminent it's not Salmond no later than yesterday reiterated that they were in no rush to put the matter of independence to the Scottish people

There is no rush so long as they are on that path imo.

Broxi_Bear_Eire

woodoo wrote: »

There is no rush so long as they are on that path imo.

They may be on the path but I see it as a very very long one to be fair

meglome

Batsy wrote: »

The EU has NO benefit for the UK whatsoever.

It's funny that you have repeatedly brought up Muslim and black immigrants which have nothing to do with the EU. The only thing I've seen you mention directly about the EU was about bananas. And that turned out to be just the usual bull from the Sun and the Daily Mail. Your problem with the EU seems to be you think they meddle in UK affairs, even though the EU's actions are agreed up front with all the members, UK included.

You remind me of many Irish anti-EU people I come across. In their desire to have a 'sovereign' utopia without the EU they brush over the fact that this utopia never has existed. You hark back to the 'good ole days' when the elephant in the room is these good ole days were pretty shíte. Britain was a basket case when it joined the EU.

Batsy

Where have my two articles gone about the EU being of no benefit to the UK and the fact that EDL is a non-racist organisation which merely wants to rid England of the evil and the scourge of Islamism?

Have they been erased due to the fact that they contain many inconvenient truths for Lefties?

Scofflaw

Batsy, perhaps you could refrain from posting these largely off-topic walls of text.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Batsy

Scofflaw wrote: »

Batsy, perhaps you could refrain from posting these largely off-topic walls of text.

moderately,
Scofflaw

They aren't off-topic. They were in reply to things I have been asked.

Scofflaw

Batsy wrote: »

They aren't off-topic. They were in reply to things I have been asked.

Your own opinion, and your own words, should be quite adequate. If you want to post tracts from the EDL, please pay the appropriate advertising charges.

Please read the Charter before responding further.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Lab_Mouse

Batsy wrote: »

Where have my two articles gone about the EU being of no benefit to the UK and the fact that EDL is a non-racist organisation which merely wants to rid England of the evil and the scourge of Islamism?

Have they been erased due to the fact that they contain many inconvenient truths for Lefties?

pm the forum mods they'll tell you why