Scottish Independence ( 'Independence Lite' )

Davidth88

With the SNP conference underway this morning , there was much discussion on the BBC about Scottish Independence.

There is now talk of not ' full ' independence , but ' independence lite '

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/oct/09/scotland-independence-alex-salmond

In my view ( as an Englishman ) , this seems to be the Scots wanting their cake and eating it.

The currently have the advantage ? of a Scottish Parliament that can cause the English to look with envy at free prescriptions , free third level education and other benefits.

What are other people opinion ? Do Scotland truly want full independence , along with all that goes along with that ie their own forces/ no more subsidies from London ( does London really subsidy Scotland ? ) etc

I know there is already a thread on this , but that was from a NI perspective , mods , if you think this is really much of the same please merge

OS119

the 'independance lite' option being put forward - by people like Henry McLeish, not so much by SNP people - is fiscal autonomy, and full legislative power over everything execpt Foriegn Affairs and Defence. its actually a resolution to the current problem of the block grant, and it means that if Scottish voters want x, y, or z services, they alone have to pay for them.

its also, imv, quite convenient for the SNP - if you talk to them, you will find that many, while not being fans of the current set-up, have, in the financial and political meltdown of the last couple of years, rediscovered the advantages of being part of a big, powerful gang that weilds its own big sticks.

they have, again imv, been stung by the collapse of the 'arc of prosperity' that they used to talk about, and how easily these small, formerly wealthy countries have been pushed about by the big beasts of the European and financial jungles.

you should also be aware that while Scotland gets more money, proportionately, than England that allows it to do things like free university education, free prescriptions and free social care, some of the money that is used for those things has come out of the budgets that we, in England, use for other things - an obvious example being after-hours GP provision, which in Scotland is pretty woeful, but in England is quite good. and expensive.

Killer Pigeon

Davidth88 wrote: »

What are other people opinion ? Do Scotland truly want full independence , along with all that goes along with that ie their own forces/ no more subsidies from London ( does London really subsidy Scotland ? ) etc

Better asks the Scots themselves but this is an Irish forum, so invariably there's going to be a little bit more of a biased nationalist opinion.

Manach

From an EU PoV what might this involve
- would Scotland become a new member state by default or would it have to re-apply for membership status as an aspirant nation. These might need to be clarified prior to the referendum. AFAIK, only Greenland has left the EU in 1985 and the exit criteria are laid down.

Davidth88

Hmmmm the EU thing is an interesting one , wow that would really wind a lot of people up in England if Scotland pulled out of the EU as well.

Then consider this , travelling to Scotland for your Duty Frees

They did say on the TV this morning about the possibility of a different currency , I suppose if the Euro meltdown hadn't happened they may have thought about adopting the Euro.

There is quite a bit of ill feeling right now in England towards Scotland and Wales ( not so much towards NI I think ) that they get more money , can make their own rules etc , and a growing movement for an English Assembly. Of course their cause isn't helped my terrible groups like the EDL ( NF by another name IMO ) etc.

_Beau_

Davidth88 wrote: »

Do Scotland truly want full independence

None of us can speak for an entire nation.

Let them decide in a referendum.

I'd like to see all GB states independent.

Ickle Magoo

Davidth88 wrote: »

They did say on the TV this morning about the possibility of a different currency...

They already do - try handing over a scottish note south of the border. :pac:

I don't think full independence is going to happen any time soon - unless there are drastic political changes in how the UK operates, I think independence lite will struggle to get widespread support. Yes the nats are doing a good job and of course a tory government in west minster was always going to help the nat vote in holyrood but I don't think independence has sufficient support from the scots or the legions of english, irish and welsh living north of the border who would also be eligible to vote to ever pass referendum.

woodoo

I think that would be a baby step towards independence. If they found that they could pay for their country to run efficiently on their own with the Independence lite option. They may be bolstered to go for full Independence then.

OS119

woodoo wrote: »

...They may be bolstered to go for full Independence then.

they may also decide that fiscal autonomy is enough.

when, by and large, you speak to people who are in favour of Scottish independance, you quickly discover that they want independance from westminster because it would allow them to persue x, y, or z policy - few are, ime, in favour of independance purely for its own sake.

the 'independance lite' option would, imv, pass because it satisies most peoples asperations - complete freedom to set domestic policy and taxation, while retaining the 'big gang' security of remaining in the UK.

some will, of course, object that its not full independance, paint their faces blue and scream 'freedom', but, imv, i think they'd be pretty small proportion of the population.

Davidth88

_Beau_ wrote: »

None of us can speak for an entire nation.

Let them decide in a referendum.

I'd like to see all GB states independent.

I wasn't really asking people to speak for a Nation , just their opinions .

As for all GB ' states ' independent, you mean a separate England , Scotland and Wales ?

I think England and Scotland might be able to standalone , but I think Wales for all their wish to become separate are too small and too reliant on money from the central coffers.

I actually have no objection to Scotland going it alone , I do however feel that they can't pick and choose what they do , what I mean by that is if they go it alone , then fine go away and have a great time , but don't come back looking for money/support or whatever

I have not lived in England now for 10 yrs , but the vibes I get from my family/friends , and from the media is that there is a growing unease about the way Scotland and Wales command their own destiny , but still seem to have their hands out looking for support to pay for their policies . Of course a lot of this is English people looking with slightly green eyes at the extra benefits .

bobbysands81

Davidth88 wrote: »

With the SNP conference underway this morning , there was much discussion on the BBC about Scottish Independence.

There is now talk of not ' full ' independence , but ' independence lite '

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/oct/09/scotland-independence-alex-salmond

In my view ( as an Englishman ) , this seems to be the Scots wanting their cake and eating it.

The currently have the advantage ? of a Scottish Parliament that can cause the English to look with envy at free prescriptions , free third level education and other benefits.

What are other people opinion ? Do Scotland truly want full independence , along with all that goes along with that ie their own forces/ no more subsidies from London ( does London really subsidy Scotland ? ) etc

I know there is already a thread on this , but that was from a NI perspective , mods , if you think this is really much of the same please merge

It's no-one's business but the Scots as to whether they want full independence or not and only a referendum will answer your query.

Personally I believe that the last vestiges of the Empire are clinging on for life and the break-up of the so called United Kingdom is inevitable... but might still be a while before it happens.

Don't forget Scotland has a lot of oil.

getz

i cannot see how it is going to work, as a independant scotland,they would lose instantly,over half a million jobs from the public secter,all the UK army,navy,and airforce bases would have to be relocated to the rest of the UK,and all the companies and workforces who depend on them would lose their work and jobs,they would have to issue their own passport,they would not be able to use stirling as their base currency,they will have to run and finance their own NHS pensions ect,[if they still want one] ,and the cheeky thing is that they have already asked the rest of the UK ,to give them,more money to build up the local scottish economy ready for the independance referendum

getz

bobbysands81 wrote: »

It's no-one's business but the Scots as to whether they want full independence or not and only a referendum will answer your query.

Personally I believe that the last vestiges of the Empire are clinging on for life and the break-up of the so called United Kingdom is inevitable... but might still be a while before it happens.

Don't forget Scotland has a lot of oil.

as soon as i looked at your name i knew what was comming,

Davidth88

getz wrote: »

i cannot see how it is going to work, as a independant scotland,they would lose instantly,over half a million jobs from the public secter,all the UK army,navy,and airforce bases would have to be relocated to the rest of the UK,and all the companies and workforces who depend on them would lose their work and jobs,they would have to issue their own passport,they would not be able to use stirling as their base currency,they will have to run and finance their own NHS pensions ect,[if they still want one] ,and the cheeky thing is that they have already asked the rest of the UK ,to give them,more money to build up the local scottish economy ready for the independance referendum

I agree with a lot of what you are saying there .

getz

Davidth88 wrote: »

I agree with a lot of what you are saying there .

i have a family friend who is high up in the scottish independance party,and he keeps on telling my son ,that most have realized that they are trying to run before they can walk,and they would lose support if they tried to push through a referendum in the near future

getz

eight weeks ago alex salmond comments in a comprehensive scottish goverment submission,quote;its a vital economic and social case for retaining both the RAF leuchars and RAF lossiemouth in scotland,following the closure of RAF kinlos,stating that to lose more than one of scotlands flying bases would be disportionate unreasonable,a devasttating blow for our communities,he also went on to say,they owe it to our communities to reverse the disportionate level of cuts and closures we have faced in scotland,we stand united in a fight for the FUTURE OF OUR FORCES ,these are our armed services and they form a vital part of our communities in scotland,we will must make sure that they continue to do so for GENERATIONS TO COME, that doesent sound very much like he wants a independent scotland in the near future does it ?

OS119

getz wrote: »

...that doesent sound very much like he wants a independent scotland in the near future does it ?

no, because if you actually listen to him - and the SNP - rather than interpreting what he says through the prism of Irish politics, you'll find that they've not be talking about independance in the Irish context for a long time.

he is talking about 'independance within the UK', much as he used to talk about 'independance within Europe' - 'independance within the UK' means independant domestic policy and taxation, but joint foriegn policy and defence, joint passports, joint border policy, joint overseas represntation.

he's talking about a Federal Britain, where each constituant part decides its own domestic policy - and pays for it - and where a federal government (a rump Westminster with an English/Welsh/Scottish council of governments) decide on the non-domestic bits of policy.

Davidth88

OS119 wrote: »

he's talking about a Federal Britain, where each constituant part decides its own domestic policy - and pays for it - and where a federal government (a rump Westminster with an English/Welsh/Scottish council of governments) decide on the non-domestic bits of policy.

That's an interesting idea.

As long as England gets the same treatment , in the view of people I have spoken to ( and my view ) it seems that England is getting the rough end of the stick right now .

getz

OS119 wrote: »

no, because if you actually listen to him - and the SNP - rather than interpreting what he says through the prism of Irish politics, you'll find that they've not be talking about independance in the Irish context for a long time.

he is talking about 'independance within the UK', much as he used to talk about 'independance within Europe' - 'independance within the UK' means independant domestic policy and taxation, but joint foriegn policy and defence, joint passports, joint border policy, joint overseas represntation.

he's talking about a Federal Britain, where each constituant part decides its own domestic policy - and pays for it - and where a federal government (a rump Westminster with an English/Welsh/Scottish council of governments) decide on the non-domestic bits of policy.

but that not true,on the SNPs blue print for a referendum,it has proposals for a scotland currency,and armed forces, the SNP has dug a big hole for themselfs because the will not be able to deliver,it never even dawned on the that they also would have to pay a share of the national dept,

Fratton Fred

getz wrote: »

but that not true,on the SNPs blue print for a referendum,it has proposals for a scotland currency,and armed forces, the SNP has dug a big hole for themselfs because the will not be able to deliver,it never even dawned on the that they also would have to pay a share of the national dept,

A huge chunk of which is currently bailing out Scottish Banks.

Victor

Davidth88 wrote: »

does London really subsidy Scotland ?

the suggestion is that Scottish oil subsidises the UK.

OS119

getz wrote: »

but that not true,on the SNPs blue print for a referendum,it has proposals for a scotland currency,and armed forces...

ah, but it is true.

everytime Salmond goes on the media he talks about 'independance lite', an idea he apparently isn't in favour of, yet he mentions it everytime, explains it well, and calls the man proposing it - Henry McLiesh of the Labour Party - 'nobodys fool'.

which, to me at least, is saying 'vote for this' in 300ft letters across a clear blue sky.

i'm certain the SNP have some political baggage they have to parade to keep up appearences, as well as to to keep the lunatics who make up most political party's activists in full frothing mode, but if you talk to them you won't hear the words 'scottish army' 'scottish air force', or 'scottish navy' at anytime...

getz

OS119 wrote: »

ah, but it is true.

everytime Salmond goes on the media he talks about 'independance lite', an idea he apparently isn't in favour of, yet he mentions it everytime, explains it well, and calls the man proposing it - Henry McLiesh of the Labour Party - 'nobodys fool'.

which, to me at least, is saying 'vote for this' in 300ft letters across a clear blue sky.

i'm certain the SNP have some political baggage they have to parade to keep up appearences, as well as to to keep the lunatics who make up most political party's activists in full frothing mode, but if you talk to them you won't hear the words 'scottish army' 'scottish air force', or 'scottish navy' at anytime...

being fair to him,all political parties promise things that they cannot do ,just to get the vote,on a federal uk on equal terms could never work as england has a far bigger population that other UK countries,47 million,the other three jointly only adds up to 10 million, but the big laugh for me was[you will like this fred] george mathewson former chairman of the royal bank of scotland,said in holyood,independance is the best way to deal with scotlands dependence culture,if the country stops taking money from london,that will encourage welfair claiments to stop taking benefits from the state,if he is the best they have got,god help them

Batsy

Davidth88 wrote: »

Hmmmm the EU thing is an interesting one , wow that would really wind a lot of people up in England if Scotland pulled out of the EU as well.

I doubt the English would give a damn whether or not an independent Scotland stayed in the EU.

Of course their cause isn't helped my terrible groups like the EDL ( NF by another name IMO ) etc.

The EDL is not the National Front. The National Front and the EDL are two completely different entities. The National Front is a far-right political party, still in existence, which put up 18 candidates for the 2010 General Election.

The EDL is a non-racist organisation - it's not even a political party - which campaigns against the rise of Islamism, Islamic terrorism and Sharia Law in England which has Muslim members.

Batsy

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

They already do - try handing over a scottish note south of the border. :pac:

English (and Welsh) stores have every right to refuse to accept Scottish banknotes. Scottish banknotes are not legal tender in England & Wales. Northern Irish notes aren't legal tender in England & Wales, either.

Batsy

getz wrote: »

being fair to him,all political parties promise things that they cannot do ,just to get the vote,on a federal uk on equal terms could never work as england has a far bigger population that other UK countries,47 million,the other three jointly only adds up to 10 million, but the big laugh for me was[you will like this fred] george mathewson former chairman of the royal bank of scotland,said in holyood,independance is the best way to deal with scotlands dependence culture,if the country stops taking money from london,that will encourage welfair claiments to stop taking benefits from the state,if he is the best they have got,god help them

England's population is about 52 million; Scotland's is about 5 million; Wales's is about 3 million; and Northern Ireland's is about 1.7 million.

That means England has around five-and-a-half times as many people as Scotland, Wales and NI combined.

Davidth88

Batsy wrote: »

I doubt the English would give a damn whether or not an independent Scotland stayed in the EU.

I would say it would wind a lot of people up no end , because they would love to leave the EU too.

Batsy

Davidth88 wrote: »

I would say it would wind a lot of people up no end , because they would love to leave the EU too.

The whole of the UK is going to leave the EU in the not-too-distant future when we vote for that in the referendum.

I cannot envisage England being in the EU and Scotland being out of it at the same time.

In fact, I would bet £100 quid that, if Scotland broke away from a UK independent of the EU that Scotland would try and rejoin the EU.

who the fug

Davidth88 wrote: »

I would say it would wind a lot of people up no end , because they would love to leave the EU too.

Hopefully them pub bores would all move to Scotland with They leave

who the fug

Batsy wrote: »

The whole of the UK is going to leave the EU in the not-too-distant future when we vote for that in the referendum.

Doubt that is going to happen the far right of the Tory party is not very attractive with the spotlight on it, so can’t see them winning a majority

Would welcome one though to put this issue to bed then maybe the party could start to function again

getz

Batsy wrote: »

The whole of the UK is going to leave the EU in the not-too-distant future when we vote for that in the referendum.

I cannot envisage England being in the EU and Scotland being out of it at the same time.

In fact, I would bet £100 quid that, if Scotland broke away from a UK independent of the EU that Scotland would try and rejoin the EU.

all three parties have told their MPs that if they vote to have a referendum on the EU,they will be sacked from the parties,if scotland gains independance,they would automatically be out of the EU,and would have to re-apply ,and be tested to see if they match the EU standards.