Caught Speeding in the North - Urgent

gaatipstr

Hi everyone. Need some help. Im from midlands but working up on the Tyrone/Donegal border. Im staying in Donegal but working in Tyrone. I was caught doing 40mph in a 30 zone one day. Been honest i tought the speed limit was 40 but thats neither here or there, I was caught.
The policeman pulled me in and I showed him my licence. He then said that hed have to arrest me as i dont live in the North. I asked could I give my work address so he let me do that. He took my licence off me and said that I could either let him arrest me and bring me to the station, let it go to court or I could wait and that in a few weeks the Police will send me Details of a day course I can do to avoid Court, so I agreed for the course one. I prob should of let him arrest me and be out in an hour but at the time i was a bit nervous as I only started the job up here and to be honest he wasnt one bit nice.

So in the meantime the police have my licence. I got a letter last week saying that i have to book a place on this course by tomorrow (20th) and i have to pay £85 and if i complete course i get my licencre back. I happen to be talking to a retired policeman the other day and he told me that they cant put me on this course and that I should only have to pay £60 fine and i'll get 3 points on an northern licence if I ever apply for one.

Can anybody tell me what I should do. Should I pay for this course tomorrow or should I go to the station and tell them that I would like the 3 points on an Northern Licence instead?

Any help would be appreciated

fasttalkerchat

gaatipstr wrote: »

Hi everyone. Need some help. Im from midlands but working up on the Tyrone/Donegal border. Im staying in Donegal but working in Tyrone. I was caught doing 40mph in a 30 zone one day. Been honest i tought the speed limit was 40 but thats neither here or there, I was caught.
The policeman pulled me in and I showed him my licence. He then said that hed have to arrest me as i dont live in the North. I asked could I give my work address so he let me do that. He took my licence off me and said that I could either let him arrest me and bring me to the station, let it go to court or I could wait and that in a few weeks the Police will send me Details of a day course I can do to avoid Court, so I agreed for the course one. I prob should of let him arrest me and be out in an hour but at the time i was a bit nervous as I only started the job up here and to be honest he wasnt one bit nice.

So in the meantime the police have my licence. I got a letter last week saying that i have to book a place on this course by tomorrow (20th) and i have to pay £85 and if i complete course i get my licencre back. I happen to be talking to a retired policeman the other day and he told me that they cant put me on this course and that I should only have to pay £60 fine and i'll get 3 points on an northern licence if I ever apply for one.

Can anybody tell me what I should do. Should I pay for this course tomorrow or should I go to the station and tell them that I would like the 3 points on an Northern Licence instead?

Any help would be appreciated

The points will go on your southern license unfortunately. I think you should get in touch with a solicitor because as far as I know they PSNI should have sent your license to the authorities south of the border and sent you the fine.

Atomic Pineapple

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

The points will go on your southern license unfortunately.

Since when?

Tefral

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

The points will go on your southern license unfortunately. I think you should get in touch with a solicitor because as far as I know they PSNI should have sent your license to the authorities south of the border and sent you the fine.

I set off loads of speed cameras in the North and never got points or a fine. If your caught in the North and have a southern licence, you cannot get points on your southern licence.

Big Nasty

draffodx wrote: »

Since when?

+1

That hasn't come in to effect yet but I'm sure it will in the not too distant future.

OldmanMondeo

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

The points will go on your southern license unfortunately. I think you should get in touch with a solicitor because as far as I know they PSNI should have sent your license to the authorities south of the border and sent you the fine.

Since when did this happen? I was under the impression that they cross border agreement had still to be sorted?

OP, the Policeman had no right to take your licence away, only a judge could order that. Pay whatever fine comes out and request your licence back, or apply for a replacement one.

gaatipstr

These will not go on my Southern licence. The policeman said that a ''ghost'' licence will be created in my name and that If i ever apply for a northern licence Ill automatically get 3 points.

What im confused is. Where do i pay the fine. The letter that came out was for the speeding course which is done by AA in conjunction with the PSNI and that is £85. That is not the £60 fine that I should be paying, but they done tell me where to pay this fine

Mycroft H

Just cheaper to claim you lost your licence rather then do the course?

Our man in Havana

This is why you do not mess with foreign police forces.

scoobymunster

For what it's worth, doing the course isn't a bad thing. I know people that have done similiar and they think it's changed their perceptions on the road for the better. That said, I doubt you'd be interested paying extra to do a course which means you driving to Belfast or somewhere and losing a days work. I'd go to a police station and pay the fine. Definitely don't just ignore it if your cars regularly in NI, you'd prob get hassle by the police everytime your in NI.

CiniO

MCMLXXV wrote: »

+1

That hasn't come in to effect yet but I'm sure it will in the not too distant future.

First before they introduce it within EU, they would have to unify penalty points system, because it can't be that you get 2 points for speeding by 10km/h in Ireland, 3 in UK, and 5 in Spain, or something.

CiniO

I'd say NI must be the only country in Europe where you can get arrested for a small traffic offence, like speeding by 10km/h.

Shane732

Our man in Havana wrote: »

This is why you do not mess with foreign police forces.

What?

I wouldn't have been that quick to hand my licence over to him.

If there's a fine then pay the fine but other than that I'd be very surprised if a foreign jurisdiction had any right to take a Southern licence off you and retain it. I'd also doubt the legitimacy of making you do a NI driving course. You have a Southern licence so what has a Northern course to do with your licence?

Is speeding an arrestable offense?

johnos1984

Shane732 wrote: »

Is speeding an arrestable offense?

Yes in NI.

Shane732

johnos1984 wrote: »

Yes in NI.

Note to self!

L1011

BX 19 wrote: »

Just cheaper to claim you lost your licence rather then do the course?

Lost? It was quite clearly stolen...

I'd go for this, to be honest.

Marcusm

Shane732 wrote: »

What?

I wouldn't have been that quick to hand my licence over to him.

If there's a fine then pay the fine but other than that I'd be very surprised if a foreign jurisdiction had any right to take a Southern licence off you and retain it. I'd also doubt the legitimacy of making you do a NI driving course. You have a Southern licence so what has a Northern course to do with your licence?

Is speeding an arrestable offense?

I think that if you're apprehended in the commission of the offence, any offence is an arrestable one. The "arrest" is the literal meaning - stopping you. For non UK licence holders/non UK residents I thought that the whole point was they had to bring you to a station to charge you an then permit bail. There was a long set of posts on this 6 months or so ago. I don't think he's entitled to issue a fixed penalty notice to a non UK address so he may have done you a favour by accepting your NI work address as a residential one. So far as I am aware you should not have any points or shadow points if you undertake the driver reeducation course.

Perhaps talk to a solicitor bu if I am correct that the fixed penalty position is not applicable for non residents then you'll have a mandatory court appearance which I imagine you'd probably prefer to avoid.

Fwiw, 40mph zones are fairly unusual!

MugMugs

If you dont play how the PSNI want you too then be VERY careful next time you tip up North.

Believe me !

Jimmy Bottlehead

MugMugs wrote: »

If you dont play how the PSNI want you too then be VERY careful next time you tip up North.

Believe me !

You can't leave us hanging at that! What happened?

MugMugs

My mates up sh1t creek with no paddle.

Ongoing case so won't say.

Raskolnikov

Can you give the general jist of what happened? I am in suspense here.

johnos1984

Raskolnikov wrote: »

Can you give the general jist of what happened? I am in suspense here.

:pac:

Stinicker

You should have told the RUC officer that "Your" licence is the property of the Irish Minister for Transport and if he wanted it he could apply to the minister for it.

How far from the Border were you OP? The minute I cross the border I am generally sitting at 100mph+ road conditions permitting and have set my fastest non-Autobahn speeds whilst in the North.

johnos1984

Stinicker wrote: »

You should have told the RUC officer that "Your" licence is the property of the Irish Minister for Transport and if he wanted it he could apply to the minister for it.

How far from the Border were you OP? The minute I cross the border I am generally sitting at 100mph+ road conditions permitting and have set my fastest non-Autobahn speeds whilst in the North.

My experience of PSNI officers is that they wouldn't take that **** from you, me or anyone else. Thick and ignorant yes, but **** takers ....... NO

BTW it's the passport which is the property of the state IIRC not your drivers licence

Stinicker

johnos1984 wrote: »

My experience of PSNI officers is that they wouldn't take that **** from you, me or anyone else. Thick and ignorant yes, but **** takers ....... NO

BTW it's the passport which is the property of the state IIRC not your drivers licence

Try claiming that if you were disqualified for Drink driving etc, I'd just speak the few words of Irish I have to confuse them even further.

johnos1984

Stinicker wrote: »

Try claiming that if you were disqualified for Drink driving etc, I'd just speak the few words of Irish I have to confuse them even further.

:rolleyes:

You really are clueless.

You do know Irish is taught up North and there are probably more Irish speakers per captia than South of the border.

If you refuse to communicate through English and the officer can't speak Irish you WILL be arrested until such time as an interpreter can be found.

BTW you really need to know the back roads well if you are making a break for the border and want to get away. The call ahead to the Gardaí in Fundalk....

Fishtits

CiniO wrote: »

I'd say NI must be the only country in Europe where you can get arrested for a small traffic offence, like speeding by 10km/h.

Not so.

I've just been talking to a PSNI Officer, who admitted she was rusty on the road stuff but did say that taking his license seemed very unusual and she couldn't say for certain if it was kosher TBH.

The usual course of action was either to issue a verbal warning and on your way, or arrest and present to a magistrate/court. The latter course of action usually only taken when the offender is really taking the p*ss either by the speed/manner of driving they were doing or their attitude when stopped.

The arrest issue is due to the fact that you are non resident.

PS. I suspect the OP isn't telling us everything...

johnos1984

Fishtits wrote: »

Not so.

I've just been talking to a PSNI Officer, who admitted she was rusty on the road stuff but did say that taking his license seemed very unusual and she couldn't say for certain if it was kosher TBH.

The usual course of action was either to issue a verbal warning and on your way, or arrest and present to a magistrate/court. The latter course of action usually only taken when the offender is really taking the p*ss either by the speed/manner of driving they were doing or their attitude when stopped.

I've never heard of a licence been taken.

I have heard of them frog marching people to ATM's to withdraw the fine and pay it and people who cannot pay spend a night in the cells.

Stinicker

johnos1984 wrote: »

I've never heard of a licence been taken.

I have heard of them frog marching people to ATM's to withdraw the fine bribe and pay it and people who cannot pay spend a night in the cells.

Fixed that for you!

Jimmy Bottlehead

Are you SURE it was a cop, and not just someone who trolled you into giving them your licence? :pac:

stevemac

you can get a replacement licence for down south alright. Just say it was lost. Don't know how the PSNi will react next time you get stopped though.

CiniO

Fishtits wrote: »

The arrest issue is due to the fact that you are non resident.

Yeah. That's what I meant.

You are going there as a tourist, and you might get arrested for something really negligible.
That must the the only country in Europe like that.

CiniO

johnos1984 wrote: »

I've never heard of a licence been taken.

I have heard of them frog marching people to ATM's to withdraw the fine and pay it and people who cannot pay spend a night in the cells.

That's the way it works in most EU countries.
When you are stopped for committing an offence, you have to pay on the spot fine. They usually would let you go to ATM for the cash.
But arresting someone without even giving him a chance to pay the fine like it happens in NI, seems to be outraging.

Delancey

The legal position regarding motoring offences committed by those non-resident in Northern Ireland is as follows - where a person has no legal residence in the jurisdiction it is not practicable to process them by way of summons and in these circumstances a Police Officer has the power to arrest them and bring them before the earliest court sitting.
The legislation is section 25 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act and applies throughout the UK - a foreign driver anywhere in the UK and not just Northern Ireland is liable to arrest in these circumstances .

Most ill-advised to think that if arrested you '' will be out within an hour '' as the OP suggests - the purpose of arrest is so as to enable the offender to be brought before the next available court sitting - which very often is the next day.
If unlucky enough to be arrested on a Saturday evening be aware the courts don't sit on Sunday :eek:

CiniO

Delancey wrote: »

The legal position regarding motoring offences committed by those non-resident in Northern Ireland is as follows - where a person has no legal residence in the jurisdiction it is not practicable to process them by way of summons and in these circumstances a Police Officer has the power to arrest them and bring them before the earliest court sitting.
The legislation is section 25 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act and applies throughout the UK - a foreign driver anywhere in the UK and not just Northern Ireland is liable to arrest in these circumstances .

Most ill-advised to think that if arrested you '' will be out within an hour '' as the OP suggests - the purpose of arrest is so as to enable the offender to be brought before the next available court sitting - which very often is the next day.
If unlucky enough to be arrested on a Saturday evening be aware the courts don't sit on Sunday :eek:

The mad idea above it, is that's all apply to small offences.
I know that NI is not a transit country, but imagine if the same rules applies in Luxembourg, and you would be driving from France, through Belgium, Luxembourg, Germany, Austria to Slovenia.
Would you be happy to be arrested in Luxembourg, for speeding by 10km/h and be obliged to go to court in Luxembourg next day, even you were planning to be in Slovenia already that day.

Absolutely mad idea for me.

On the spot fines for foreign drivers seems to be the only reasonable solution at the moment.

gaatipstr

Firstly Im not making up any of the story. All parts of the story are true.
The only reason i handed it over was that when the policeman stopped me and mentioned arrest i wasnt going to argue with him.
I got a £60 ticket off him that has all my Reg details and his details but he said dont pay that fine and wait till the police contact me about the speeding course.
I dont mind doing the course its just a lot of hastle getting to belfast as im working just on the donegal border. Id rather get the points on my ''northern'' Licence.

And for your information there is plenty of 40mph Zones. Im working in around Omagh/Strabane/Castlederg area and there are plenty of 40 zones. They are normally when you come into towns/Villages. It will change to 40 then to 30.

Speaking to many people up here, ive been told that because I was a southern driver with a southern car and licence and that im young that they were only trying to intimidate me. I was told I shouldnt of given them my licence at all.

Today is the last day to pay for this course so it looks like im going to have to that now

gaatipstr

Fishtits wrote: »

Not so.

I've just been talking to a PSNI Officer, who admitted she was rusty on the road stuff but did say that taking his license seemed very unusual and she couldn't say for certain if it was kosher TBH.

The usual course of action was either to issue a verbal warning and on your way, or arrest and present to a magistrate/court. The latter course of action usually only taken when the offender is really taking the p*ss either by the speed/manner of driving they were doing or their attitude when stopped.

The arrest issue is due to the fact that you are non resident.

PS. I suspect the OP isn't telling us everything...

Im after telling you everything so dont be coming on here telling me otherwise.
I was co-operative with the policeman, did what he asked. Gave him relavant information and wasnt cheeky or smart etc.

The Guvnor

The bobby in question must have been having a bad day or been on a very high horse that day.

I would talk to a solicitor in the north. Not at all an expert but I doubt he followed procedure to the letter.

I know of one other person was caught speeding and the bobby gave him the full riot act - according to the person the bobby was saying things like:

• I'll have to arrest you...
• Courts are closed...
• Night in slammer....
• In front of judge in the am on Monday....
• It was a Friday...
• He goes on like this for ten minutes or so...
• Then the bombshell...
• Or you can pay an on the spot fine of £60
• The chap said - could you not have told me this at the start...
• Bobby wry smile etc.

It would be helpful now for us all to find out exactly what the law is in these situations so if any of us are ever in the same situation we can argue our case with accurate information.

For the record - I never heard of a ghost licence - put 1000 points on it as we're unlikely to apply for one!

gaatipstr

The thing is the course has to be paid by today so I dont know what to do. I prob wont get down to a police station till tomorrow so that would be too late. I may just do the course, lose a days pay, pay for diesel to belfast and back. Such a hastle

Our man in Havana

The correct procedure is to arrest, take you to the station then bailed to appear at a court in a few weeks time. Normally a surety of £300 is needed which is offset against the fine in court.

franksm

You may as well do the training, it looks like the easier option to be honest. I bet you only get one chance to have the 'education' option too, I can't see them allowing it for everyone every time.

If people weren't taking the p!ss by driving at 100mph all the time on the A1, etc, the cops probably wouldn't be so hard on the rest of us that do habitually go 10 or 15% over the limit.

pat1981

A bit late now but maybe something to consider in the future, argos are selling a sat nav half price about 120 euro (mio 689). It tells you what the speed limit of that particular road you are traveling on and warns you if you exceed, a great feature, not that I speed but can happen to anyone.
I would pay for the course personally, going to a solicitor will cost you money my guy charges me 250 an hour for work, don't know what the rates are in the north. best of luck.

WestWing

franksm wrote: »

If people weren't taking the p!ss by driving at 100mph all the time on the A1, etc, the cops probably wouldn't be so hard on the rest of us that do habitually go 10 or 15% over the limit.

Absolutely.

Every time i drive to Belfast i'm constantly passed by Irish reg cars doing 75mph+ in a 60mph zone.

At this stage most people should know that if you speed on the A1 and are caught the cops are gonna give you hassle.

franksm

Ed Zachary - and the 60mph zones were put in for some very good reasons (a quick Google should tell the story). In fact I don't think there have been any more fatalities from those perpendicular crossings/junctions since the 60mph zones were put in place.

I cant see how he had any right to take your license OP. You should get some legal advise, if it turns out that legally he shouldn't have taken your license this could mean the whole thing could be thrown out as he didn't follow procedure.

As an added bonus the officer might get into hassle over it too and nothing more than he deserves for not letting you on your way with a warning.

The Guvnor

TBF now even NI reg cars go quick on the road to Belfast - many do in excess of 70mph and in Belfast according to hearsay and conjecture people rarely get done for speeding.

I once made Belfast rather quickly as I discretely followed three blacked out Range Rovers going very quick - front and rear taking up two lanes middle car obviously with the VIP.

OP - Hope you get it sorted and as was said do get some legal advice as IMO the officer did not follow procedure.

Plenty of solicitors in the north are affordable.

Anan1

Emerie Gentle Guava wrote: »

As an added bonus the officer might get into hassle over it too and nothing more than he deserves for not letting you on your way with a warning.

And the officer might avoid any such future 'hassle' by arresting all Southern speeders, charging them, and having them released on bail. They gave the OP a choice, and the OP chose the course.

Anan1

Anan1 wrote: »

And the officer might avoid any such future 'hassle' by arresting all Southern speeders, charging them, and having them released on bail. They gave the OP a choice, and the OP chose the course.

I was hoping more that he might have bit of cop on and just give a warning thus avoiding extra work for himself and putting a person through being arrested for a few mph over the limit. Which lets face it is an absolute joke.

scoobymunster

Emerie Gentle Guava wrote: »

I was hoping more that he might have bit of cop on and just give a warning thus avoiding extra work for himself and putting a person through being arrested for a few mph over the limit. Which lets face it is an absolute joke.

No offence to the OP but lets use the OP as an example. They were caught doing 40 in a 30 which is 33% over the limit. The police are highly unlikely to stop you doing 34 in a 30 are they? considering there's greater concerns of working for the PSNI, doing someone for being only a few mph over is highly unlikely. It's when your clearly speeding that they pull you in, and IMHO, rightly so.

Anan1

Emerie Gentle Guava wrote: »

I was hoping more that he might have bit of cop on and just give a warning thus avoiding extra work for himself and putting a person through being arrested for a few mph over the limit. Which lets face it is an absolute joke.

You honestly think he'll be nicer to Southern drivers because one reported him? The reason they arrest and bail ROI drivers is that most of them wouldn't pay the fine otherwise. In other words, we've dug our own hole.

CiniO

Our man in Havana wrote: »

The correct procedure is to arrest, take you to the station

Would they take you in the squad car to the station?
What happens with your car then?
What if f.e. you are in charge of a small child which is with you in the car?
Would the child be arrested as well?