Do Not Piss Off the Guys at Eurooptic!

It wasn't me!

They will call you on it!

Have to say, the above makes for great reading. Frankly I can't believe they're still good-natured enough to deal with people as well as they do when people like those above are ripping them off.

Sparks

Ah, the joys of US defamation law...

It wasn't me!

Yeah, it's great, eh? You'd invite a world of hurt here though, sadly. Personally I think it's fantastic. "This guy's a dick and owes me money; call him and tell him he's a dick and owes me money."

Sparks

Yup - I tell ye, if you brought that in over here, it'd make for a very interesting year or two...

It wasn't me!

And plenty of red faces and shuffling feet!

kildare.17hmr

that is brilliant!

4gun

I think europtics need to review their credit process....what did they do give credit to every customer

I really think its his own fault

Tackleberry.

bring on the wall of shame........ha brill idea! "Boards wall of shame"

Cass

Holy crap.

As you would be writing that on an Irish forum you might as well sell the house, car, kids, etc and have the bag of money with you for your court date.

Spunk84

Tell us this if someone from say the the states said this about someone from Ireland what would happen?

Cass

Honestly, i don't have a good enough grasp of defamation law to answer that accurately. I would say the statment still stands as defamatory, but trying to pursue a legal action would be nigh on impossible.

Dachipster

This is class

Spunk84

Ezridax wrote: »

Honestly, i don't have a good enough grasp of defamation law to answer that accurately. I would say the statment still stands as defamatory, but trying to pursue a legal action would be nigh on impossible.

Now on to my next question:D Say if i use a proxy yoke { just for instance;)} the ones that bounce your ip all over the world except where you are and hides your location, then in essence i could defam anyone :cool:

As you said EZ that Defamation law is weird and hard to get a grip on, the same as the blasphemy law:D now that one is a complete joke

mcgarry098

so obviously you cant name and shame people over here, so what can you do to get your moneys worth out of them! or do you have to just let them get away with it!

Cass

Thats a lot of trouble to go through to call someone a name. Sometimes it might seem like its worth it though.

As for the blasphemy laws, well less said on that the better. Criminals running around with unlicensed guns, us getting nailed by the same laws, and ya can't have a good cursing session. :rolleyes:

..............so what can you do to get your moneys worth out of them! or do you have to just let them get away with it!.

Civil suit is the only option i can see.

Remember lads, NOT A SOLICITOR, so i'm assuming here.

johngalway

We need that ability over here, save a lot of folks from being ripped off.

Grizzly 45

If we did John ...It would be a very looooonnngggg list of people.:D
Best we have over here folks is Stubbs Gazette.But only for registerd judgements etc.

How they get away with it over in the US is simply they have the 1st Amendment.Freedom of expression and freedom of the press.As well as a host of laws on credit scores,tenency,martial status being public knowledge or being more accesible to the public.Simply put,your private life in the US is a lot less private than over here.Which can be both good and bad.

@Spunk,to answer your question about defamation.From previous cases of this here.The Irish "neo nazis"[a rather sick joke ..but anyway!] post on a website called Stormfront it is registerd in the USA,and therefore comes under US law with the 1st Amendment protection.Therefore it is virtually impossible to do anything about it,and to prove slander and defamation in a US court...Well hope you are in the millionare leauge to fight this one to the US Supreme court!!!
From what I see of it[non leagal opinion bTW].Is if you have a US registerd website, and its server is US based.It is a free fire zone,even if you are contributing from outside the USA.Or it affects somone outside the USA
This even includes advocating extremeist views and violence.Notice how many nutter Jihadist websites are registerd in the great Satans backyard??:rolleyes::D

Sparks

Spunk84 wrote: »

Now on to my next question:D Say if i use a proxy yoke { just for instance;)} the ones that bounce your ip all over the world except where you are and hides your location, then in essence i could defam anyone :cool:

To answer your question from the point of view of someone who earns his crust writing those proxy yokes, you'd be screwed because you can't hide your location with them. You just think you can. And you know what happens when people who think they're "just that good" find out that they're actually "not all that"...

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

How they get away with it over in the US is simply they have the 1st Amendment.

Only very indirectly. The more direct reason is because their libel laws put the onus of proof on the plaintiff to show they were defamed, whereas Irish law puts the onus of proof on the defendant to show they didn't defame someone. It's one of a few areas of Irish law where the concept of "innocent until proven guilty" Does. Not. Hold.

(Other areas including the firearms and offensive weapons act 1990's bits about carrying an object in public that the arresting Garda felt was to be used for criminal purposes).

@Spunk,to answer your question about defamation.

Grizzly, it's a lovely academic discussion, but to give a practical example, look at politics.ie. Hosted in the US, with Irish people discussing other Irish people. And the owner of the site has gone to great pains to point out that anyone posting defamatory material on the site is on their own and he's posted to that effect on boards.ie - the post is well worth the read: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=73244608&postcount=44
The one correction I'd make to that post is that boards.ie isn't responsible for user's comments only so long as it makes best efforts to remove defamatory material. If we fail to do so, then boards.ie does become responsible, as would any forum site.

It's really worth reading the last paragraph of his post btw, so here it is:

It's important to note, and I'd suggest the mod above, and everyone else, actually read the agreement they've entered into with this website. Users enter into a legal binding agreement with this website that they'll be fully responsible for what they post, and even indemnify Boards.ie against any costs that the company incur as a result of what you post here. You may not think that should be the case, but you agreed to it.

TL;DR version - doesn't matter where the site's hosted, it matters where you live. That's where jurisdiction will most likely apply.

Spunk84

Sparks wrote: »

Spunk84 wrote: »

Now on to my next question:D Say if i use a proxy yoke { just for instance;)} the ones that bounce your ip all over the world except where you are and hides your location, then in essence i could defam anyone :cool:

To answer your question from the point of view of someone who earns his crust writing those proxy yokes, you'd be screwed because you can't hide your location with them. You just think you can. And you know what happens when people who think they're "just that good" find out that they're actually "not all that"...

Hmmmm guess I'm going to have to move back to the states to annoy you all LOL Always thought they would bounce your ip around different servers so it would be harder to find you. I'm thinking I will just deal with the defamation case then as i have have sweet F all to take LMAO could to with a holiday! Heard mountjoy has a great computer room there be in and out in a jiffy

Sparks

Spunk84 wrote: »

Hmmmm guess I'm going to have to move back to the states to annoy you all LOL Always thought they would bounce your ip around different servers so it would be harder to find you.

Harder doesn't mean impossible...
And once court orders come into it (which they do in defamation cases), everyone turns over their records. Boards, ISPs, telco's, the lot. It's the law.

I'm thinking I will just deal with the defamation case then as i have have sweet F all to take LMAO could to with a holiday! Heard mountjoy has a great computer room there be in and out in a jiffy

You don't normally get custodial sentences for a defamation case
They send the sherrif round to collect your possessions in lieu of payment instead.
Like I said, lose your car. Or your guns. Or your furniture or house.

Spunk84

Sparks wrote: »

Spunk84 wrote: »

Hmmmm guess I'm going to have to move back to the states to annoy you all LOL Always thought they would bounce your ip around different servers so it would be harder to find you.

Harder doesn't mean impossible...
And once court orders come into it (which they do in defamation cases), everyone turns over their records. Boards, ISPs, telco's, the lot. It's the law.

I'm thinking I will just deal with the defamation case then as i have have sweet F all to take LMAO could to with a holiday! Heard mountjoy has a great computer room there be in and out in a jiffy

You don't normally get custodial sentences for a defamation case
They send the sherrif round to collect your possessions in lieu of payment instead.
Like I said, lose your car. Or your guns. Or your furniture or house.

LOL no that would be cool to see. Lads come around for my stuff:D here you go sheriff. There's the 95 megane with 150K on it, a TV and Mmmmm mr goldfish. Gun wise they can take but " sorry lost my safe keys" hahahaha . "You wanna reef it of the wall joints, Mr sheriff ?" then you pay for the cost of the damage LOL would make a cool YouTube vid:D as for savings Mr Sheriff , try the isle of man were my account is.......Excellent

Wile E. Coyote

Spunk84 wrote: »

I'm thinking I will just deal with the defamation case then as i have have sweet F all to take LMAO could to with a holiday! Heard mountjoy has a great computer room there be in and out in a jiffy

It would only be defamation if the info your posting is false or can't be proven. If you were going to say that ABC Ltd owed you €100 and wouldn't pay up then that couldn't be considered defamation once you have the proof. Similar to petrol stations who post the pictures of people who have driven off without paying.

Spunk84

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

Spunk84 wrote: »

I'm thinking I will just deal with the defamation case then as i have have sweet F all to take LMAO could to with a holiday! Heard mountjoy has a great computer room there be in and out in a jiffy

It would only be defamation if the info your posting is false or can't be proven. If you were going to say that ABC Ltd owed you €100 and wouldn't pay up then that couldn't be considered defamation. Similar to petrol stations who post the pictures of people who have driven off without paying.

Remeber once I had a pic of me up in the Foxhunter petrol station for the same alleged reason hahahaha said I didn't pay a week previous, called the Gards on me and all I wanted was a can of red bull LOL after all the commotion of them calling me a liar, whip out the trusty iPhone went onto my bank online and showed the Gards the transaction,price and the date of paying for the petrol damn should of sued them or at least free petrol or can of redbull for pain and suffering

Sparks

Spunk84 wrote: »

LOL no that would be cool to see. Lads come around for my stuff:D here you go sheriff. There's the 95 megane with 150K on it, a TV and Mmmmm mr goldfish.

Spunk, you are a man in dire need of reading up on what the Sheriff can and cannot do. Because the second list is scarily short.
They'll take your megane, value it, say it's not enough and then take everything else too. Up to, and including, your house.

Gun wise they can take but " sorry lost my safe keys" hahahaha . "You wanna reef it of the wall joints, Mr sheriff ?" then you pay for the cost of the damage LOL would make a cool YouTube vid:D

if you've lost the keys to the safe, they'll have the safe cut open and charge you for the cost of the work.

as for savings Mr Sheriff , try the isle of man were my account is.......Excellent

Yup, they'll freeze those accounts and confiscate them and the isle of man won't stop them.

Look, just trust us on this, you don't want to discover this stuff first-hand.

Sparks

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

It would only be defamation if the info your posting is false or can't be proven.

And as we've said - what seems like a few hundred times by now - you have to prove that in court and it's not a case of innocent until proven guilty. You have to prove in court (and that's a slightly higher standard than "convince your mates" btw) that your statement was either true or not defamatory.
That won't be free.
And there's no legal aid for defamation cases, it all has to come out of your pocket.

Sparks

Spunk84 wrote: »

Remeber once I had a pic of me up in the Foxhunter petrol station for the same alleged reason hahahaha said I didn't pay a week previous, called the Gards on me and all I wanted was a can of red bull LOL after all the commotion of them calling me a liar, whip out the trusty iPhone went onto my bank online and showed the Gards the transaction,price and the date of paying for the petrol damn should of sued them or at least free petrol or can of redbull for pain and suffering

If you had sued for defamation, you wouldn't have been worrying about the cost of the petrol for quite a while...

Wile E. Coyote

Sparks wrote: »

And as we've said - what seems like a few hundred times by now - you have to prove that in court and it's not a case of innocent until proven guilty. You have to prove in court (and that's a slightly higher standard than "convince your mates" btw) that your statement was either true or not defamatory.
That won't be free.
And there's no legal aid for defamation cases, it all has to come out of your pocket.

In the case of Eurooptics, or any small business that offers a credit facility, disproving a claim of defamation would be fairly easy and could be done without hiring an expensive solicitor. Simply turn up in court with a copy of the order, invoice and statement showing details of whats outstanding and it's then up to the other party to prove that they have made the payment.

Admittedly it would be a lot harder to prove if it was simply a case of you giving a friend a loan that they didn't pay back.

Sparks

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

In the case of Eurooptics, or any small business that offers a credit facility, disproving a claim of defamation would be fairly easy and could be done without hiring an expensive solicitor. Simply turn up in court with a copy of the order, invoice and statement showing details of whats outstanding and it's then up to the other party to prove that they have made the payment.

Except that that's not quite how it'd work for them, because they're under US jurisdiction and the onus of proof would be on the plaintiff, not the defendant, and US defamation law is a lot more biased towards allowing freedom of speech (we don't have the same rights here - carefully read section 40(6)(1)(i) of the constitution - the bit where the right to freedom of expression is documented - to see what I mean, and note that 40(3)(2) gets mentioned first - that's the bit where the state says it'll protect your good name).

All of which is what I meant by :

Sparks wrote: »

Ah, the joys of US defamation law...

Cass

Someone correct me if i'm wrong here.

You can say what you want with the necessary proof/documentation. So if i owe a company/person money and they say Ezridax owes us X amount thats okay. However if they embelish the statment by adding insult such as name calling or slanderous remarks which could be classed as character assassination then thats also a problem. So Eurooptics adding these insults, if done here, would still fall foul of the law?

IOW, report the facts.

Sparks

As I understand it, the namecalling bit depends on the nature of the name someone's being called. Foul language, as such, isn't defamation (the original law classed it as "salty language" and basicly said go away and grow a thicker skin). But if your insult was less towards expletive and more towards descriptive, you could have a problem (it's one thing to call someone fecally burdened, it's another to say they molest goats, for example).

And reporting facts is pretty much straightforward. You could still be called to court as an attempt at bullying, but you have to draw a line somewhere, and round here it's drawn between the point where someone says "Person X charged me Y amount over the market average for their goods" and "Person X is a rip-off artist".

Spunk84

Ezridax wrote: »

Someone correct me if i'm wrong here.

You can say what you want with the necessary proof/documentation. So if i owe a company/person money and they say Ezridax owes us X amount thats okay. However if they embelish the statment by adding insult such as name calling or slanderous remarks which could be classed as character assassination then thats also a problem. So Eurooptics adding these insults, if done here, would still fall foul of the law?

IOW, report the facts.

Yes from what I see. Soooo confusing, where are the days you have a fist to fist fight or a slagging match in a open place with out being mindful that your going to get in trouble. Same as kids fighting in schools now, theres a case up in Cavan where the parents are suing some kid cause he had fight with their pricious child:D the funny thing is that "their" kid picked on the wrong person and he ended up battered.

Grizzly 45

BTW you would want to check can firearms be seized as collatoral here.
ASFIK thats a no no due to our liscensing laws.As firearms cannot be even taken in pawn here and it is up to AGS to seize firearms in relation to criminal matters not civil torts.So in that case the sheriff could be arrested for illegal possession of firearms!!
Also having had abit of experiance with the sheriffs and their henchmen.
The concept of underwriting high goods value is apart from abhorrently ilegal also counter verifiable by having the Revenue decide on its value.
IOW the Sheriff cant seize your Ferrari F40 say,and then say a 200k car in Ireland is only worth 2,000 quid.

As for the US,would you want to try and prove slander/defamation where the onus is on you to prove it.And the first question out of Eurooptics lawyers mouth is going to be "Tell the court Mr X,why you havent paid up for the scope,when you can file a class action lawsuit costing Xthousand dollars,and you owe Euro optics five hundered or whatever the case maybe?"

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

BTW you would want to check can firearms be seized as collatoral here.
ASFIK thats a no no due to our liscensing laws.

That's not correct. As we've said many times, ownership and possession are seperate concepts. That's why nobody got compensation after '72 - the firearms were never confiscated, just held by the Gardai because there weren't any licences, but you could sell them on, and that's how it'd be done here. The sherrif would get a section 2(5)(a) authorisation and that'd be that.

Mellor

Sparks wrote: »

TL;DR version - doesn't matter where the site's hosted, it matters where you live. That's where jurisdiction will most likely apply.

I'm not sure that fully true Sparks.
For example, I don't live in Ireland, but that doesn't mean that anything I say anythign I like about other posters on boards.ie. It could still be slander.
I still come under irish law posting on boards.ie

Online law is a pretty tricky thing, its not about breaking the law, its about chasing it up most of the time.

demonloop

It sounds like a fabulous idea to me, in fact I've already a few names in my head, I wonder is it OK to post a few up on boards.ie?

Probably best not to

Sparks

Mellor wrote: »

I'm not sure that fully true Sparks.

Not fully (the full story is about four novels long), but it is for folks living in Ireland who think that hosting their site abroad indemnifies them in any case of defamation

Sparks

demonloop wrote: »

It sounds like a fabulous idea to me, in fact I've already a few names in my head, I wonder is it OK to post a few up on boards.ie?
Probably best not to

Like I said, the joys of US libel legislation....
We'd have seen Haughey out of office in a heartbeat, would probably have skipped over most of the worst of the economic woes we're now in, and I'd suspect that a *lot* of people would be in different occupations. And for the majority of us, that'd all be for the better...

tfitzgerald

I think it's a great idea fair play to them