Starcraft learning Curve High?

W0LFMAN

Greetings fellow StarCraft Fans.

I just want to get off my chest my personal opinion about StarCraft

Having just watched the exciting StarCraft MLG tournament this weekend. It absolutely amazes me the quality gameplay that top players have around the world, Elite players like MC,
TLO and Idra are so god damn fluid like in there Macro and have unbelievable 6th sense in pre-emptive builds to counter act attacks, that the only conclusion is that they devote 8-10 hours a day for the last 8 years.
Just like poor Chinese WoW gold farmers in China.

I’ve been playing StarCraft since release, and even though I can’t afford to play hard-core hours to speed up my average key press per Minute.
I’m starting to become dishearten that I will never get to a decent level where I believe I’m a worthy Starcraft2 Player.

In season One I played 200+ 1v1 matches and just about broke 50% win/lose ratio, I was in copper league (Rank Ultra crap) and rightly so worthy of that league. It wasn’t roses either when I started.
Game after game I lost to cannon rushes/reaper rushes/marine rushes that caught me off guard.

Understanding the different Cheese’s out there from youtube helped me out a lot, I became a fan of Husky and online forums which got me to understand the importance of builds, timing and that pure luck was also a key factor.
However STILL losing made me run out and purchase the Starcraft2 Signature Series Guide book. A 22 Euro investment to save my nerves and growing frustration.
Each night I would read a chapter or 2 and pray that the information would sink in subconsciously, ready to pay dividends when I’m ready to rush an enemy base.

My other half, while unimpressed that I became hooked on a game. Decided to take pity eventually and decided to have a go herself, and within a few hours of playing especially a game that she never played,
notched a few wins for me and eventually got me off the rock bottom floor of the copper league.

Her skill at learning to play StarCraft2 even though she detests ANY game was impressing.

Asking her to teach me what and how she did it was not as impressive. I’m used to getting the odd shouting about not doing my fair share of housework, but getting an Ear bashing because
I rushed without macro’ing my barracks to constantly produce units to my frontline, decimated my enjoyment of the game.
Especially when I saw her learn Protoss and eventually Zerg without problems.

All however is not Crushing bad.

I did start to get wins and my Macro and builds have improved slightly. But in honestly lads. I’m not good in a game I love, or is watching Starcraft Elite Player videos not wise. I feel Ashamed being in the copper league.

Is it me or is the Learning Curve just So Damn High?

RoyalMarine

W0LFMAN wrote: »

My other half, while unimpressed that I became hooked on a game. Decided to take pity eventually and decided to have a go herself, and within a few hours of playing especially a game that she never played,
notched a few wins for me and eventually got me off the rock bottom floor of the copper league.

Her skill at learning to play StarCraft2 even though she detests ANY game was impressing.

Asking her to teach me what and how she did it was not as impressive. I’m used to getting the odd shouting about not doing my fair share of housework, but getting an Ear bashing because
I rushed without macro’ing my barracks to constantly produce units to my frontline, decimated my enjoyment of the game.
Especially when I saw her learn Protoss and eventually Zerg without problems.

best thread ever.

IRL_Sinister

Posting in epic thread.

On a more serious note you should just focus on two simple things atm...

SCVs and supply depots.

Just keep building them and keep building expansions and barracks'. If you need any help hit me up at Sinister.947 (but I won't be playing on that account very often from today onwards ). You'll find a lot of people on IRC that are willing to help and get online

#starcraft.ie @quakenet

Try and compete in some of the more social tournaments we have on boards such as the Tuesday night Cup and learn from your mistakes. Oh, and don't forget to observe the better players and see what they do different.

1) Build SCVs
2) Build supply depots
3) Hotkey buildings and units [Ctrl + #)
4) Build expansions
5) Build barracks'

EDIT: The starcraft II learning curve is actually really low. Once you've learned macro the game is very easy. Getting from Bronze -> Diamond can be achieved very easily if you focus on very specific aspects of your gameplay. It's the step up from Masters to GM where the learning curve becomes steep.

Tenger

IRL_Sinister wrote: »

Posting in epic thread.

On a more serious note you should just focus on two simple things atm...
SCVs and supply depots.
Just keep building them and keep building expansions and barracks'.............



..................The starcraft II learning curve is actually really low. Once you've learned macro the game is very easy. Getting from Bronze -> Diamond can be achieved very easily if you focus on very specific aspects of your gameplay. It's the step up from Masters to GM where the learning curve becomes steep.

I have to disagree with Sinister here. Looking down from his Diamond/GM position it may seem so but as a struggling Bronze it does not seem to be "easy". I am beating silver leaguers when I meet them but then it is very easy to have a bad run of games due to cheese/crazy strats. Last Sunday (16th) I had an awful day where I lost 8/10 matches. Thus I have dropped so far that I will not make it back to top 8 in my division. With my 60/40 overall win rate I will not be able to climb back up 150+ points at this stage.

I do not want to knock his advice as he has shown his ability at this game repeatedly, but I think he doesn't realise how hard some lower players are finding the ladder system.


He says to focus on certain aspects of my game. Easy to say that when you can spot it easily. When I watch my replays I often see moment where I should have been more/less aggressive or where I missed a hidden expansion. These are easy things to spot for lower players. Things like unit composition and 'reading' the other player are harder to learn as they are instinctive, I think you actually need another player (such as Sinister or similar level) to point out your mistakes and show you want to do.

Another problem I have is knowing the correct BO for each match-up. My most comfortable BO is 3 rax early marine pressure then move into tanks and medics if the first push doesn't work. I struggle to expand though as I am a defensively minded player.
I have my build order worked out with little tweaks, but is this really appropriate for all match-ups. EG,

-TvP I wait for Marauders to push, with ghosts ready after 1st push. I find it easier to counter attack vP as 1-2 EMP really weakens his attack, I then chase him back and hurt him. Early 4 gate/cannon rush is a killer. In the replay attached below I guess that I should have built bunkers as soon as I spotted the pylon just north of my base.

-TvZ 4-5 marines can do damage if they early expand,I may add 2-3 helions to hit the usual zergling response. To me it is all about delaying their muta's until I have enough thors/tanks/marines to push in. Roach rush cause me to cry.

-TvT 3 rax can usually beat 1-1-1. But I have lost quite a few to a mirror marine rush, where my +1 upgrade doesn'tcut it against 4 rax/6 rax.



In addition on some smaller maps (with cliffs) I often go with a reaper rush of 6-8,this aims to both scout and do economic damage. While this is happening I hotkey build marines and marauders. If I know he has his troops sitting in his base I wait with my reapers until I see him push out, then rush in to attack,leaving him with the decision to keep going or run back. If I destroy his economy and he does an all in I should have built enough troops at home to defend.
I know that gold/diamond/GM players see reapers as an inefficient unit, but at my level I find reapers can really keep another Bronze on the back foot.

IRL_Sinister

Ironicallly enough my next piece of advíce once he got his basic macro off the ground was to then focus on build orders.

Since tenger has already mentioned it then I shall briefly explain it here, however if you feel intimidated bu this I understand - I definitely think BO's is a topic that is too daunting for lower-level players.

Anyway, once you've gotten the basic macro options of the game under control you should begin to focus purely on your build order. My advice, until you get to Masters level, is choose ONE build order to use PER race. So for example:

Vs Zerg: reactor Helion into siege tank, marines and medivacs.
Vs Terran: 1-1-1 into expansion + marine tank
Vs Protoss: 3 rax into heavy bio/medivac and drop play.

The above three are only EXAMPLES and the choice is totally up to you. If you can practice one build (per race) over and over again -- so much so you'll be able to add little variations and transitions -- you'll suddenly find yourself gaining far more knowledge and experience in the game. It is these BUILD ORDERS that seperates a gold/plat player from a Masters player.

From the build order you'll automatically begin working in different timings based on what you read from your opponent and, naturally, transition away from just one build order as you begin to analyse replays, VoDs and compete in tournaments.

But, I still believe yoyr main problem lies in basic macro. Once building probes, supply depots, barracks and offensive units becomes second nature then you can bgein focusing on other aspects of your gameplay. Obce you have a build order you feel happy and confident with in each matchup; that's when the learning curve doesn't become an issue and you will see your own skill level go from gold, to platinum, to diamond and eventually onto low masters very quickly.

[Note: I wrote this on the way to work at 5am, I take no responsibility for mistakes, grammar issues or length. If the format is retarded to look at, blame Blackberry].

~Sinister

Tenger

IRL_Sinister wrote: »

[Note: I wrote this on the way to work at 5am, I take no responsibility for mistakes, grammar issues or length. If the format is retarded to look at, blame Blackberry]

THIS is dedication to the game!!!

Now to pick my 3 BO's....................

Grimebox

I couldn't resist

Khazidhea

[offtopic]

I wrote this on the way to work at 5am

wtf you work at 5am? Oo
[/offtopic]

IRL_Sinister

Yurp

Decerto

No its pretty low, you can go very far just learning a standard build 1rax fe etc order properly and focus on getting 200/200

NeoSlicerZ

SC2's learning curve is quite insanely low. The real problem is getting the speed to do everything you need to do without second guessing yourself.

michaelyou

you should watch koreans

Tenger

IRL_Sinister wrote: »

Posting in epic thread.

On a more serious note you should just focus on two simple things atm...

SCVs and supply depots.

Just keep building them and keep building expansions and barracks'...........

1) Build SCVs
2) Build supply depots
3) Hotkey buildings and units [Ctrl + #)
4) Build expansions
5) Build barracks'

EDIT: The starcraft II learning curve is actually really low. Once you've learned macro the game is very easy. Getting from Bronze -> Diamond can be achieved very easily if you focus on very specific aspects of your gameplay. It's the step up from Masters to GM where the learning curve becomes steep.

I have to offer an apology to Sinister. I disagreed with him but a couple of days ago found a youtube video that made me change my BO. Up until Thursday I had been having a really bad time of it. I had slipped from rank 5 to rank 14 due to a shocking ~70% loss in the previous week. I watched this video and followed the drill.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXbSvEKLJl8

On Friday night and Saturday I played about 30 games and won at least 23 of them. I even managed to beat a gold and a 3-4 of silvers (not something to brag about is you are high level but an achievement for a lowly bronze towner)

It is very simple but it shows the power of macro to low level players. The drill tells you to ONLY build SCV's and marines, NOTHING ELSE except depots and barracks. Seems mad. But it allows you to expand at 6 mins, then at 10 minutes, then at 14 minutes, by 15-20 minutes in you should have 110 marines and 90 SCV's. (However my timings weren't quite up to this mark)
Then you attack. If you lose then you use those 90 SCV's to build back up in a stupidly short period of time.

In one match I had a 200/200 army enroute to his base at the 23 minute mark, with 29 barracks and over 3000 minerals in the bank ready to rebuild if I didn't kill him. This stat may seem normal to a diamond/master player but as a bronze leaguer this is daunting.

Previously I had focused on building an army, this drill is a tool to train you to focus on your economy and production facilities.
I tried it for about 5 games then added in a bit of gas early on to get stim/shield and upgrades.

My losses were against mass BC's, mass 3/3 siege tanks, 4 gates.
I'll post a replay or two up tomorrow.

Grimebox

Tenger wrote: »

....I watched this video and followed the drill.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXbSvEKLJl8
...

I think its a bad idea to be practising queuing up units, although its simple marine only build allows you concentrate on improving macro

Tenger

Grimebox wrote: »

I think its a bad idea to be practising queuing up units, although its simple marine only build allows you concentrate on improving macro

I agree.........


......however the point of this drill is to train a low level player in good macro.

The poster (Halby?) does say this in the video, that queuing units is usually wrong, he also points out that the aim of this drill isn't to win but to teach the power of macro. Even in the games I lost I had a very powerful economy which with a different unit comp would have won the games for me.

In the past I usually found myself building troops rather than SCV's. ("I need an army in case he attacks me") But in reality an SCV now will allow me to build more troops later. Watching my replays over the last 2 months I am usually behind in workers. So this drill has immediately drawn my attention to a flaw in my play. I found myself over the course of the 30 games getting the timing down for SCV building, so I was able to select my CC's at the appropriate time to build another.

Even if all I take from this is that I should have 24 SCV's by 6 mins and 2 bases with 40 by 10 mins it gives me a solid macro base to build on.

IRL_Sinister

I know, I'm just that good

StrOut88

W0LFMAN wrote: »

Her skill at learning to play StarCraft2 even though she detests ANY game was impressing.

Asking her to teach me what and how she did it was not as impressive. I’m used to getting the odd shouting about not doing my fair share of housework, but getting an Ear bashing because I rushed without macro’ing my barracks to constantly produce units to my frontline, decimated my enjoyment of the game.

This should be no surprise, women are excellent at spending money!

(and multitasking - but that's not funny)

magicianz

With relation to economy, Whenever I see replays from lower leagues/see low ladder mates playing, they rarely have adequate saturation on a base. When you select all your miners at a base you should have at least 2 and a half rows of workers to have adequate saturation. Thats on every base, and never think you ever have enough bases or workers. Stop when you have 3 bases saturated, minimum, if I have a fourth up i usually throw some in gas for the better units.

Army-wise, try the other armies, honestly, Terran just might not be your cup of tea! When I started I was Protoss, changed to Zerg, to Toss, to Terran, to Toss and now Im back in Zerg again! And I love Zerg =D so much fun for me and much more focus-intensive.

With regards to armies, the low army size really is all linked to your economy. You can operate 4 gateways and warp in a round of stalkers (just about) every CD when saturated as protoss, thats 500 mins and 200 gas per round.

As Terran you also have mules aswell which give a big boost to mineral income. You could easily keep 8 marines building at all times with just 1 base, thats about 88 marines every 5 minutes off 1 base. Mules give 240-270 mins per game minutes, another 5 marines right there per minute! At bronze level you could possibly just saturate your main and rally barracks to enemies base and win without even having to A-click!

The problem I see is that even if people have saturated bases, they dont have the production facilities to make things fast enough! I mean if you were 20 minutes into a game how many barrack/factories/ports would you have? You need a helluva lot to keep your minerals down! And thats what you're trying to do, keep your minerals down. If you see yourself with 500 odd minerals and you aren't saving for some reason (E.g. for zerg is if spire is about to finish and you want mutas), then build an expo in your base and fly it to nearest expo after you upgrade to orbital! You have 3 bases and are on 1-2k mins? drop some barracks! drop some factories, something!

One thing that I like from top terran players is they build barracks, but they dont spend the gas on reactors or tech labs, they just build more barracks! You might get the same production from your 4 reactor'd barracks as their 8 stock barracks, but come mid-> late game all they have to do is upgrade their barracks when they have a well-established econ and can spare the gas, as gas is relatively very expensive at the start of a game.

You have to take SCVs off mining (losing minerals), spend your own time telling them where to go and where to build them, and then follow up with shift command to go back mining. They just click hot-key and press the reactor/tech lab button as many times as they want.

I know this post has been very focussed on just barracks and basic units but the same principles can be applied to everything. You need to realise what a base is capable of sustaining and what it can't.

TheDoc

NeoSlicerZ wrote: »

SC2's learning curve is quite insanely low. The real problem is getting the speed to do everything you need to do without second guessing yourself.

I think its hard to specificy the learning curve for a game like this. Coming from a high level of Warcraft 3( playing with Grubby, Demuslim and ToD night in and out), I'm literally nowhere near the same heights in SC2.

Granted I stopped playing properly some years ago, you kinda never forget the essentials.

Sc2 is a completely different animal, and I think the learning curve is high.

Learning builds and strategies is ALOT easier then WC3 in my opinion.

Timings are something you couldnt do previously, but can be done rather easy in Sc2. (Heros in WC3 made every game rather unique)

Learning how to be efficent with your APM, multitask effectively and other things is difficult to learn too.

SC2 is a much faster game and I'm still trying to adapt to it and its starting to come together a bit better now after looking at how I hotkey my things.

Micro isnt as much as a big deal in this game, despite what anyone says. I hear casters and the likes talk of micro and I kinda giggle because there really isnt any proper unit micro past the early game.

Starcraft was always a Macro game, and looking at the new maps and where its going, it looks to be focusing more on the macro.

Understanding when your ahead and decision making takes alot of time to learn, you wont be taught that, there is no formula.

magicianz

TheDoc wrote: »

Micro isnt as much as a big deal in this game, despite what anyone says. I hear casters and the likes talk of micro and I kinda giggle because there really isnt any proper unit micro past the early game.

Starcraft was always a Macro game, and looking at the new maps and where its going, it looks to be focusing more on the macro.

I really can't agree with this statement, there is still a lot of focus on micro at the top of Starcraft 2 throughout all stages of the game. Terrans splitting forces and kiting away from banelings, controlling drops and drop placement for examples for terran.

For zerg, getting the right units into the battle at the right time, e.g. getting siege tanks to hit other units than banelings, the splitting of forces again into smaller group (Check out most idra games vs a terran), drops as well, burrows/unburrows, fungals/neural parasites/corruptors corruption in battles, keeping broodlord positions in check.

Protoss there forcefields/guardian shields, blink stalkers, army positioning too in keeping zealots in front of stalkers (stalkers move faster), drops/prism warp-ins, storms/feedback.

Thats just a few examples of each races micro needs throughout games. If you really dont believe that micro doesnt make a big impact on games later on then you should go onto a unit tester map and make 2 stalker balls fight each other, with you microing 1 side. That will show you how important it can be. Yeah, Starcraft 2 is becoming much more macro focussed on maps, but micro is the difference between winning and losing in many matches.

TheDoc

I guess to clarify , my opinion on micro in SC2 is nothing similar to WC3. ( i compare the two as they are the only two big RTS games worth noting)

I don't feel it is as prevelant throughout the game at all levels.

For example when you see the sort of "league pyramids" and the " what to learn " when you start stuff, most poeple dont mention micro until you hit the higher levels of play.

For me, thats really counter intuitive and doesnt make sense.

You can win games purely based on macro, with no micro, sorry but for me that is just weird.

Of course at high levels it makes a difference, that is just obvious.

I know there is micro in the game, I can micro, and I'm happy with it, and I'll get my micro better, but to be able to move up leagues WITHOUT micro, for me that just indicates the game isnt micro focused.

Which is true I guess, Starcraft has always been a macro game and Warcraft was always the micro, thats just the bog standard difference for over 10 years a tthis stage

the_syco

StrOut88 wrote: »

(and multitasking - but that's not funny)

It is if she brings the Starcraft laptop into your bedroom :pac: :P

Tenger

Just to go back to the OP.

Watching my replays (esp TvT) allowed me to compare myself to the opponent. I could see what army/SCV count they had at a particular point so I then knew what to aim for.

My faults were slow expo, not enough SCV's and failure to recognise a weakness in them/opportunity for me to land a killer blow.

The 1st replay attached shows 2 of those flaws. I was keeping pace with him in SCV's and outbuilding in marines. However he got his expo up well earlier than me. (Hence the 10 marine disparity) I was building up marauders to push at 2/2 but he then helion dropped me. (I like early upgrades) I think he killed 5-6 SCV's, not a great trade for 4 helions and a medevac.

At this point I should have just barrelled down and killed him, I had double the army supply of him. I failed to push however and his economy started to power ahead of mine.
The final battle shows how he had siege tanks and mass marines against my (still) 1/1 MM thor mix.

The other 2 replays are recent ones of me winning (always a surprise)
The TvT was surprising as the opponent was actually doing better than me. He had a bigger army but my reaper rush at around 9 minutes killed a decent portion of his workers and he wandered around the map with his marines, thus allowing me time to build 2 bunkers which meant my smaller army was more powerful defensively when he eventually pushed the ramp at 11 minutes. A straight push at 9 mins should have done enough damage to cripple me and allow his follow up to kill me.

The TvP showed me expo-ing promptly and keeping all my rax working hard so I had the larger army. His defensive posture also helped me to sit back and let him bounce off me before pushing in.

magicianz

@Tenger

Just watching your last replay vs. the terran, and you really need to re-read what people are saying and take it to heart. SCVs and supply depots! Sitting at 14-15 SCVs 9min30s into a game will have you stuck in bronze for life honestly.

You should be constantly pressing the number 4 key for your command center to check if theres an SCV building, if theres not, build one!

How many supply depots you need depends on how many production structures you have, if you have 3 racks with 3 reactors, you will be taking up about 14 supply per minute (including SCVs off 1 base), since a supply depot is only 8 supply you can see you need to be building a lot of them, but you should try to keep it consistent. Try to build one, next time you go and queue up your next round of units - build another then!

And when you have SCVs building something, remember to ALWAYS shift-click them to mine again. That is Shift-RightClick minerals

And also, that game vs the terran, he quit very very pre-maturely, he more than likely would have killed you unless you moved out when his push was killed off!

You will be able to produce a helluva lot more when you start making more SCVs honestly, I mean by the time that game was over id have maybe 60+ drones? And be taking a 3rd!

And that very late reaper harass won't go down at all at gold+ id say :P

Orizio

I'll look at the replays later but you should be aiming to be maxed at like 15-16 minutes on three bases? With 60 plus SCVs, constantly muling, with 4 production buildings per base (at least) and scouting your opponent every few minutes. I think thats do-able and something to main for, although its build dependent - I'd actually practice against the computer aiming purely to max out as quickly as possible.

Tenger

Thanks for that:

Those points are exactly the faults I spotted myself. I have got better at macro since that replay (honest guv!) I posted these replays as I felt they were a good example of where I was going wrong, they definitely helped me to recognise my mistakes, which is a start.

-Over the last week of so I have got into the habit of shift clicking workers back to the mineral line. Saves me having to go find them and tell them what to do later.
-I have started to queue SCV's (yes I know) to ensure I have a decent saturation. When 1 is >50% I queue another.
-I am trying to get into the habit of having 1 SCV constantly building depots, this is needed if I go 4 rax or more.

I found this tutorial very instructive in showing me the power of proper SCV saturation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXbSvEKLJl8


So currently I am aiming to have full saturation by 6-8 mins, then expo and full saturation there by 12 mins, then ready for another expo. By that time I expect to have 4+ rax, 2 factory and 2 starports. If I cannot get my money down I drop more rax. I aim for double upgrades also. Most bronze build a single E bay/armoury, so I regularly ahead on upgrades. It is quite a vague outline but I think that gives me a timeline.



As for the reapers, I know they are not an efficient unit but I love them and in Bronze matches I find the other player can often be so focused on my base and a contain that he leaves his flanks and base completely open. Personally I like to have 3-4 marines spread across the map to give me vision. I think the risk of needing those marines at home is worth it to spot reapers/drops/expos. Secondly if I am contained I can use reapers to scout and save the OC energy for mules.

magicianz

Breaking contains = siege tank crawl and/or drops. The drops will cripple their economy if they don't pull some units back to stop it, leaving a weakened force to contain that you can stamp all over. Or else you have his eco destroyed and you can simply out mass him!

As for the upgrades, dont power for all the upgrades early, pick 1 first depending on who your against (There are optimal ones for each match-up), do that, then start on doubles. This gives you more resources for defence/expanding. As for the scouting, you only really need a few marines to keep an eye on him. Keep a marine below his ramp, out of tank range, so you can see im moving out and keep one a small bit from his natural towards your base, so you can see if he is moving out or just expanding.

For mid-game, when you have medi-vacs up, use them to scout expos while you're going for a drop. Just shift-path it over the expo so you will see it when its on its way.



Orizio will probably be a bit more helpful than me once he gets a look at the replays, as he plays terran and I play the almighty Zerg :P But the basics are the same

Throw up another few replays when you can, and not all of you winning, you learn more from losing :P

Tenger

magicianz wrote: »

Orizio will probably be a bit more helpful than me once he gets a look at the replays, as he plays terran and I play the almighty Zerg :P But the basics are the same

Throw up another few replays when you can, and not all of you winning, you learn more from losing :P

Will do, may take a day or so as not able to play over next 2-3 days,


EDIT: Got a few games in today, here you go, be as mean as you like:

Looking over them myself I think my problems are
-getting supply blocked at times, (I need to remember to queue these up)
-slowing down SCV's production once my expo is up, (need to focus on 70+ for 3 bases)
-tunnel vision at times thus allowing my minerals to build up, more rax would solve that,
-not always getting a 2nd scout of his base after 5-7 minutes to spot incoming. (the last replay really shows that)

My current W/L ratio is 29/31. I find I do better when I can spent several hours laddering,
haven't had the chance so far in Season 4,its been 1-2 games at a time.
(I also think I need to get a better mouse, not that I can blame it for me losing)

Jonny7

Are you sure its Starcraft 2 or just all RTS games in general?

In general I find fps games like battlefield etc quite easy, but I find RTS games like warcraft 3 and starcraft very challenging.

magicianz

Im just x8 and x4 ing over these to try and get through them all but a few things on each game, both small and big:

Game 1:

-At start, the most efficient way is to build an SCV then split your workeres, go for just a 3-3 split.
-SCV Production, on 2 bases you stopped at 25 SCVs? You shouldn't even think about another expansion til you have at least 2 rows of SCVs in each base minimum! (Thats 36 including 4 in geysers).
-Try to watch worker selection - 11:20 ish you sent 6 SCVs out and only needed 2 and ended up spending time sending others back.
-Remember to macro while scouting and attacking! You have all your production stuff on hotkeys, all you had to do to make stuff (e.g. your barracks) was to press 4 and hit D - D - D - A - A. Done, 5 units coming out. Then do the same on other buildings. All while looking at your scouting/battle/whatever,
-1500min @ 15:30 and well under 200/200, need to spend that dough constantly!
-1 SCV in a geyser in main and 1 SCV in geyser in natural while you were pushed for gas, easy to spot when you have only 1 in there, take a second to check it out.
-supply blocked for over 2 minutes at one point and about a minute at another point!
Gotta keep them building but as I saw at another point, don't want to over build them as it uses up precious minerals (Think you built like 8 are 183 supply or something around there).
-When you were supply blocked, that meant no macro happening at all. 2 minutes with no production is a helluva long time!
-Lots of energy building on Orbital Commands nearer the end, even if you are in a very commanding position you don't want to get sloppy :P

Game 2:

-Noticed it in your other replays too, do you always wall your small ramp when you FE like that? Its not really necessary if you plan on walling your front which is, imo, a better choice vs zerg + toss as they have melee units.
- The second you saw him Forge Fast Expand (FFE), you should have thrown down your expo asap, you can't leave yourself slip behind in economy!
-Again, SCV production. Stopped for a long time @ 26! Don't ever stop :P Keep all your commands on one key and check it every so often to see if they are idle. You get used to the timings after a while! Once you start actively watching that and unit production by checking the hotkeys, your play will vastly improve through pure macro alone.
- Again, Gas Geyser, 1 SCV in main, idle geyser and unbuilt geyser on top north expo, 2 empty geysers in 4th for a while too.
-SCV selection again, pulled out a mule and 2 extra SCVs, wasting time and resources
- With no visible enemy air units on the field you built a shed load of turrets, maybe 1 or 2 max at mineral line unless he is going hard up air harass on your base, then you can build more! Use rines and stim and medis to def it too.
-Wasted a helluva lot of scans when he was moving towards you, a single marine costs 50 minerals, a mule is same energy as scan but it gets you 270 minerals fast, big difference :P
-Wasted Ghosts when he was pushing, ran them out to EMP and missed the most important units - the high templar! They should be primary target for your EMPs.
- Couple of SCVs floating around throughout the game not doing anything.
- @ 188 ish supply you build 8 extra supply depots, where 2 would have maxed you, 600 minerals down the drain. =/
- Only 7 rax & 2 factories when you were on like 5/6 bases, need many more barracks to allow you to replace an army in a flash! Once you hit 200/200 you will just gain resources like a motherfúcker! But they are useless if you dont have the facilities to make things =/


----Will add as I watch more through the evening :P----

Orizio

Bramble add me on b.net (Feanor.980) and we'll practice a little over the weekend if you are on.

Tenger

Orizio wrote: »

Bramble add me on b.net (Feanor.980) and we'll practice a little over the weekend if you are on.

Will do, won't be able to get many games in until next Wednesday evening. (9pm on, get to hotel about 7-8pm Irish time) Away for work so will be doing a 3-4 session then and again Thursday during the day.


Thanks for the critique so far Magicianz, I feel stupid as you are pointing out things I thought I had sorted.
Thanks very much for taking the time to look over those replays.


I am only trying the FE recently so still in the comfort zone of walling off as a fallback.

About the i SCV in gas, the BO than interested me was gasless, so I am trying it with just a bit of gas until I have 2 bases up. Just enough to get stim, shield and allow marauder production. Then increase gas income when going into tanks/medevac/ghost.

I like to have a little more supply than needed in case of counter attack. I remember thinking at the time that 8 depots was overkill, maybe 4 would have been better.

I like a few turrets against protoss to stop observers at my front, I agree that you don't need to many.

The bad ghost use was noted at the time, I sent them out to hit the templars and messed up.
Took the easy shot over the best shot.

Should I have 5 production buildings per base? Or more?

magicianz

All these things come with time honestly! Just try to concentrate on improving 1/2 parts of your play at a time instead of trying to do everything at once If you lose, who cares, it is all to improve your play over all, long term.

I changed from toss to zerg when I was platinum and I lost at least a dozen if not more games before I had even 1 win! And then I went on to lose more games :P Until I had concentrated on timings and larvae injecting properly, I was way behind all the time and honestly, I got lucky :P

Ill try and look over more over the weekend, I hate sounding like anything is a personal attack on your play, im sorry if I ever come across as that, Im just saying what Im seeing :P

Orizio

Regarding FE, there is no reason to get gas before you get your CC (it just weakens your build), just open standard, no gas at 13, CC at 19 (I think?) and build it in your base, then get two more rax if you are going bio and straight after both gases in your main or if you want to tech take both gases in your main after you've build you've started your CC. Get your second OC as fast as possible, get a bunker at your natch, constantly make SCVs...and don't get 27/27.

Although I wouldn't go FE until you get to like Diamond as its hard, go 1/1/1 in all match-ups and concentrate on your macro.

Tenger

magicianz wrote: »

Ill try and look over more over the weekend, I hate sounding like anything is a personal attack on your play, im sorry if I ever come across as that, Im just saying what Im seeing :P

I'm glad to get any feedback.....as for personal attacks,don't be worried......
....as I am in bronze league I sort of know I am in the bottom 20% of European players........also you are critiqueing my SC2 ability, I'm fabulous at everything else!!!


Have to start counting my SCV's at certain times.

So FE not recommended by Orizio? I have to admit I feel exposed when I do but I spotted that I was very slow at expo's before Season 4 so though to try a FE build to counter that. I do see the benefit of 1/1/1 but I used this in Season 1+2 and never seemed to get troops quickly enough, to me opening 3 rax before factory/starport 'feels' safer.

Orizio

1/1/1 with bunker is as safe as it gets - I'll happily show you the build.

magicianz

I was planning to get back to you with the rest of them before the weekend was done but Ive spent the last day helping people in my course with assignments and studying for mechanics so i dont think ill be able to give a good look at anything til Wednesday! =/

Tenger

magicianz wrote: »

I was planning to get back to you with the rest of them before the weekend was done but Ive spent the last day helping people in my course with assignments and studying for mechanics so i dont think ill be able to give a good look at anything til Wednesday! =/

Don't worry about it. What you have told me so far gives me things to work on.
I can upload a few replays from my session on Wednesday to see am I sorting out the bumps in my play.

magicianz

Doesnt want to let me edit my other post so ill continue here:

Game 3:

Not even going to talk about it, if you see someone doing that again ill be surpised :P

Game 4:

Good response to the first pylon, should not have sent out all the SCVs to look for more, a lot of mining time was already lost with trying to destroy that pylon! Sending just 1 SCV out would have been adequate and if you were fearful of having Pylons dropped again somewhere just outside your base, you can build supply depots around the edges of your base to spot.

When your first attack got cleaned up at the end, you should have tried to micro the marine(s) out away from the zealot, just like you did against the probes. Small things like that are always good training if you do that and try to continue to macro If you didn't want to micre, retreating would have been better as you have 6 marines then instead of 5, as you werent going to kill the zealot anyway.

Game 5:

SCV at tower should have been switched for a marine, its better to lose a marine than lose an SCV!
Supply watching again, SCVs.
Bad timing lifting barracks and making bunker, should never do that when you know an attack is imminent.
Lots of surplus gas - you shouldn't take geysers til you need them! If you have FE'd then you wont be fast teching, so you dont need as much gas. I dont know what it is for Terran, but for me playing zerg, I would sometime only take a gas around 26, then take the other 3 at 44 food! I only need the gas for speedlings and for a lair at the start, each gas geyser for me costs me a drone and all the mining time from 3 drones. You had about 278 gas at one point when i noticed. If you didn't make 2 of your geysers and survived off 1, then you would have had over 500 more minerals than you had, now thats a lot of resources in the early game!

(278 / 4) x 5 = mining time resources +
75 x 2 = refinerys +
50(guess) = build time

That is just under 550 minerals, or 11 marines, or 7 marines and a bunker, that definately would have helped you hold against his pressure, and if you held, you would have a significant economic advantage. Then you could tech, then you could start harassing, then you could crush him.

Tenger

magicianz wrote: »

Doesnt want to let me edit my other post so ill continue here:

Game 4:

Good response to the first pylon.........

Game 5:

I really HATE cannon rushes....sorry, lost to so many by now that I did sorta overreact to that one!

Game 5: Just looked over it see exactly what you mean, FE = leave gas alone. A few more troops and an earlier bunker when I expoed would have helped enormously in this situation.


As an aside is this even legal on B.Net?
It is an 'in game tuition add-on'
http://diamondgamer.com/?hop=sc2sig

Orizio

Bramble, I'll be on tomorrow from 8-10 p.m. if that is any help to you - regarding practicing. I'll probably be on Friday night some time as well.

Orizio

Orizio wrote: »

Bramble, I'll be on tomorrow from 8-10 p.m. if that is any help to you - regarding practicing. I'll probably be on Friday night some time as well.

Probably will be 8:30 to 10 in fact.

Tenger

Orizio wrote: »

Probably will be 8:30 to 10 in fact.

No problem. I arrive at 6pm Irish time, at hotel by 7.30, straight out for food and then all settled in at laptop by 8.30pm.

Custom game V AI with you as an observer best option to critique me?

magicianz

He will tell you what to make while you are playing an AI or similar level friend of his and keep on hounding you to do things :P It helped me a good bit with my play in general, does start getting you to think about what you're doing more!

Orizio

Tenger wrote: »

No problem. I arrive at 6pm Irish time, at hotel by 7.30, straight out for food and then all settled in at laptop by 8.30pm.

Custom game V AI with you as an observer best option to critique me?

Sounds grand.

Orizio

magicianz wrote: »

He will tell you what to make while you are playing an AI or similar level friend of his and keep on hounding you to do things :P It helped me a good bit with my play in general, does start getting you to think about what you're doing more!

Aye. this extremely annoying and stressful.

F69Baal

Lately I have tried to play on ladder 1v1 again but I just cant stay focused for more than 2 games in a row. but I wouldnt mind helping somebody!

Add me: WGTBaal.965

I am a Random platinum player

Tenger

Lets just ignore this post?

magicianz

Tenger wrote: »

Lets just ignore this post?

The wonders of email......d'awhhhhh :L

paulthom

u need super fast reflexes and be very smart to become a good sc player