Racism - Mod Note on 1st Post - Read before posting.

bucketybuck

tommyhaas wrote: »

Of course, my point is though that it seems very unlikely that it wasn't noticed by anyone else, or by any camera's or mic's on each of the 10 occasions, either at the time, or retrospectively by lip readers. Evra also implied that it was fairly apparent when he suggested it would have been picked up by the camera's

Of course Evra implied it was apparent, because to Evra I am sure it was very apparent indeed.

But the fact is, it is not very unlikely that it wasn't picked up on by anybody else. Even a hundred cameras cannot pick up every little thing, and a player walking by another player and muttering "******" would not necessarily be heard by anybody else. Just the opposite in fact, I would say the chances are far higher that a player could do that without ever being caught.

Take this case for example. Assume the slur happened. Assume it definitely happened. We still would not have known about it if Evra had not reported it to the ref. The cameras are there to watch the action, not to look out for players talking to each other.

tommyhaas

bucketybuck wrote: »

Take this case for example. Assume the slur happened. Assume it definitely happened. We still would not have known about it if Evra had not reported it to the ref. The cameras are there to watch the action, not to look out for players talking to each other.

That's true, but once it was reported you can be guaranteed Sky went fishing through all there footage with a lip reader of some sort

Suarez would have to be extremely lucky for a camera not to have caught him mouthing the word on any of the occasions

Fuhrer

tommyhaas wrote: »

As I said in reply to bucketybuck;

You really are not getting the concept of whispering at all...


Ugh, I give up.


I know arguments in Soccer are fairly frustrating at the best of times but im seriously sat here trying to explain the concept of whispering to a grown adult who presumably has a legal right to own a driving license. Its utterly terrifying.

Mr Alan

ilovelamp2000 wrote: »

Yes. But you're still absolutely miles away from what is actually important here.

Misinformation being put into the public domain by the accuser in this instance is very important in my view & as brings the credibility of his version of events into question. And results in the accused being tried by the media & public before all the facts are known.

ilovelamp2000 wrote:

Your absolute outright support of everything LFC to the point of ridiculousness is cute, but stupid. Much like a lot of the United heads to be fair.

These kind of accusations have actually long been a pet hate of mine. Particuarly in cases of rape & racism, as once they are out there, they are near impossible to stop.

I was very critical of Man Utd over the Chelsea affair a couple of seasons ago as I felt that they were trying to detract from the fracas their players were involved in by introducing the race card to the equation & thereby muddying the waters.

Fuhrer

Mr Alan wrote: »

These kind of accusations have actually long been a pet hate of mine. Particuarly in cases of rape & racism, as once they are out there, they are near impossible to stop.

So, when you hear someone has been accused of Rape you go about attacking the victim as well? Calling into account times when they were involved in rape before, accusing them of lying about Rape even though they didnt and generally trying to paint them as liars?

tommyhaas

Fuhrer wrote: »

You really are not getting the concept of whispering at all...


Ugh, I give up.


I know arguments in Soccer are fairly frustrating at the best of times but im seriously sat here trying to explain the concept of whispering to a grown adult who presumably has a legal right to own a driving license. Its utterly terrifying.

Look, firstly grow the fook up with your childish little digs

I'm not dismissing the notion that Suarez could have whispered it, however Evra seemed to when he stated that it would have been picked up by the cameras

If Suarez had said it on 10 occasions, surely on at least one of those occasions its quiet likely that either someone else would have heard it, or a camera would have picked him up mouthing it

In a crowded box, I don't think its absurd to suggest that Suarez would have had to say it fairly loudly for Evra to have heard it over the crowd and that had he done so, its quiet possible that someone else would have heard it

smokedeels

efb wrote: »

previous.

Oh, and the presumption of innocence thing...

Good point.

I just feel ill at ease when a player reports that he's been racially abused and the automatic response is "he's lying". I know about the Chelsea incident but he wasn't proven to have lied.

At the same time, trail by media is an awful thing and Suarez is at this moment innocent.

I hope some solid evidence emerges soon.

Fuhrer

tommyhaas wrote: »

Look, firstly grow the fook up with your childish little digs

I'm not dismissing the notion that Suarez could have whispered it, however Evra seemed to when he stated that it would have been picked up by the cameras

If Suarez had said it on 10 occasions, surely on at least one of those occasions its quiet likely that either someone else would have heard it, or a camera would have picked him up mouthing it

In a crowded box, I don't think its absurd to suggest that Suarez would have had to say it fairly loudly for Evra to have heard it over the crowd and that had he done so, its quiet possible that someone else would have heard it

Childish digs, like calling someone an arsehole? Yeah, ill refrain from that. Maybe you should take your own advice, yeah?

Mr Alan

Fuhrer wrote: »

So, when you hear someone has been accused of Rape you go about attacking the victim as well? Calling into account times when they were involved in rape before, accusing them of lying about Rape even though they didnt and generally trying to paint them as liars?

Yea. Exactly. :rolleyes:

Obviously a rape case is very very very different, the comparrison is that once someone has that label, its near impossible to get rid of.

ilovelamp2000

Fuhrer wrote: »

So, when you hear someone has been accused of Rape you go about attacking the victim as well? Calling into account times when they were involved in rape before, accusing them of lying about Rape even though they didnt and generally trying to paint them as liars?

If you were the defending Counsel, yes you would. Which is kinda what Alan has taken upon himself to be here.

ilovelamp2000

Mr Alan wrote: »

Misinformation being put into the public domain by the accuser in this instance is very important in my view & as brings the credibility of his version of events into question. And results in the accused being tried by the media & public before all the facts are known.

Yeah it's a big calculated move by Evra to muddy the waters. ****ing hell.

Whether Evra is right about it being on TV or not has no bearing whatsoever upon whether Suarez racially abused him or not. It's simply a stupid point you've been labouring for 24 hours now.

Look at the whole thing in context.

busyliving

Going to go away from the Evra situation a little...

In LOI there was a coloured goalkeeper whose nickname was Banana, his team mates call him that and he just took it as a nickname, from what I've been told he pretty much gave himself the nickname when he came into the league.

I found it strange as it could be conceived as racism, but maybe that's because PC may have gone a little too far...I under no circumstances condone the use of the N word tho

tommyhaas

Fuhrer wrote: »

Childish digs, like calling someone an arsehole? Yeah, ill refrain from that. Maybe you should take your own advice, yeah?

I said that you come across as a condescending areshole, which you do. It was an observation rather then a childish dig

Fuhrer wrote: »

The whole idea of sounds travelling over distance is a new one to you, isnt it?

Fuhrer wrote: »

Its a pity they didnt teach you any common sense

Fuhrer wrote: »

Of course not, to him all conversation is audible to everyone everywhere no matter what the volumne, proximity or other noise in the place.

Fuhrer wrote: »

Seriously, its a fascinating subject, maybe you should read up on it. I learned about it when I was in primary school. Seems you skipped that.

Fuhrer wrote: »

I know arguments in Soccer are fairly frustrating at the best of times but im seriously sat here trying to explain the concept of whispering to a grown adult who presumably has a legal right to own a driving license. Its utterly terrifying.

I don't understand how you cannot have a proper discussion on something without resorting to this. The vast majority of other Utd fan's a perfectly capable of it

busyliving

busyliving wrote: »

Going to go away from the Evra situation a little...

In LOI there was a coloured goalkeeper whose nickname was Banana, his team mates call him that and he just took it as a nickname, from what I've been told he pretty much gave himself the nickname when he came into the league.

I found it strange as it could be conceived as racism, but maybe that's because PC may have gone a little too far...I under no circumstances condone the use of the N word tho

Seriously ? :eek:

tommyhaas

tommyhaas wrote: »

I don't understand how you cannot have a proper discussion on something without resorting to this. The vast majority of other Utd fan's a perfectly capable of it

Just don't bother.

It's impossible to have a balanced conversation with that poster.

Fuhrer

tommyhaas wrote: »

I said that you come across as a condescending areshole, which you do. It was an observation rather then a childish dig


I don't understand how you cannot have a proper discussion on something without resorting to this. The vast majority of other Utd fan's a perfectly capable of it

I was having a perfectly reasonable conversation, they you refused to engage in common sense.

Its like having someone argue that black is white and get upset when you dismiss them as being utterly ridiculous

Fuhrer

rarnes1 wrote: »

Just don't bother.

It's impossible to have a balanced conversation with that poster.

How would you know what a balanced conversation is?


Your soul contribution to any criticism of Saurez is to walk in and say "Haters gonna Hate" and walk out like you've actually made some actual point.

v3ttel

Melion wrote: »

Without wanting to start a Liverpool - United debate. I dont want to put this in the United thread and i dont think it belongs in the match thread either.

Could any punishment be handed down to Patrice Evra if these claims turn out to be false?

Are you serious? OP reads as follows: "Now, I don't want to start a Liverpool - United debate, but hey, let's start a Liverpool - United debate"

If Suarez is found guilty of racism, he should recieve a lengthy ban. If Evra has accused him of racism, knowing full well that it is not true, he should recieve a lengthy ban. Simple as that.

busyliving

rarnes1 wrote: »

Seriously ? :eek:

Yeah man, the fans would never dare call him by that name in case it was considered racist, but I spoke to a couple lads who played with him in the past and they said he was called Banana in training but it was never used in a derogatory manner

Fuhrer

Fuhrer wrote: »

How would you know what a balanced conversation is?


Your soul contribution to any criticism of Saurez is to walk in and say "Haters gonna Hate" and walk out like you've actually made some actual point.

He sang it well though don't you think?

greendom

TeddyTedson wrote: »

I'm a United fan and I don't see the big problem.
When I play football I get called all sorts of names. You just get on with it.
Our manager would even shout for example, "Watch the ginger, watch the ginger on the left" or something like that, and nobody takes any notice.
So being called a N***** in a game is nothing new, and I bet it happens in the league every match.

I didn't realise you had the internet in the 1970s

PARKHEAD67

Rooney10 wrote: »

Are you serious? OP reads as follows: "Now, I don't want to start a Liverpool - United debate, but hey, let's start a Liverpool - United debate"

If Suarez is found guilty of racism, he should recieve a lengthy ban. If Evra has accused him of racism, knowing full well that it is not true, he should recieve a lengthy ban. Simple as that.

As an outsider-Why in the fcuk would Evra make this up?? Why like??

MIN2511

An incident of racism is generally blown out of proportion; whatever the outcome of the FA's investigation I hope they don't make it public as it could damage a player's career.

Mr Alan

PARKHEAD67 wrote: »

As an outsider-Why in the fcuk would Evra make this up?? Why like??

Who knows.

Evra has always been a bit mad.

Maybe he just wanted to discredit Suarez, Utd's biggest historical rivals best player? Maybe he just doesn't like him?

Why did Mike Phelan & co lie about the Chelsea groundsman?

People lie. It's not new.

flahavaj

MIN2511 wrote: »

An incident of racism is generally blown out of proportion; whatever the outcome of the FA's investigation I hope they don't make it public as it could damage a player's career.

If the outcome of the investigation is that Suarez is found guilty of repeated racist taunts then he deserves to have his career damaged. Likewise Evra is fun to have lied btw.

flahavaj

Mr Alan wrote: »

Who knows.

Evra has always been a bit mad.

Maybe he just wanted to discredit Suarez, Utd's biggest historical rivals best player? Maybe he just doesn't like him?

Why did Mike Phelan & co lie about the Chelsea groundsman?

People lie. It's not new.

People tell the truth too. People are racists sometimes too.

Looking at it from a motive POV, Suarez has a clear motive, to wind up Evra and gain an advantage on the pitch.

Evra on the other hand appears to have none.

If the investigation will look at previous cases then I'm sure that'll be taken into account too.

PARKHEAD67

Mr Alan wrote: »

Who knows.

Evra has always been a bit mad.

Maybe he just wanted to discredit Suarez, Utd's biggest historical rivals best player? Maybe he just doesn't like him?

Why did Mike Phelan & co lie about the Chelsea groundsman?

People lie. It's not new.

Maybe your right.I dont know much about Evras past.But its bizarre to say a fellow player racially abused you if theres no truth to it.If he made that up he should be fcuked out of united.But, if its true then Suarez is after outdoing himself.

PARKHEAD67

flahavaj wrote: »

People tell the truth too. People are racists sometimes too.

Looking at it from a motive POV, Suarez has a clear motive, to wind up Evra and gain an advantage on the pitch.

Evra on the other hand appears to have none.

If the investigation will look at previous cases then I'm sure that'll be taken into account too.

Racist abuse isnt a motive though.Its sick.

flahavaj

PARKHEAD67 wrote: »

Racist abuse isnt a motive though.Its sick.

I agree that its vile and sick, but I'm saying there would have been a motive there for him to do it. Whereas as you have pointed out yourself, there appears little motive for Evra to make the whole thing up.

michael999999

Evra has been poor the last two seasons, even the most ardant United fan would admit that Suarez does not need to resort to racism to better Evra on the pitch!

To suggest so is just grasping at bloody straws to be honest!