Racism - Mod Note on 1st Post - Read before posting.

Kess73

Des wrote: »

Makes no sense.

I could be a fluent German speaker, but I'd still run into problems in Switzerland.

Or a woman could go to a doctor in Liverpool and say "me fanny is sore", and she'd be sent to a gynocologist, but if she said the same thing to a doctor in Boston, he'd give her a cushion.

There are words used in countries that speak a particular language, that aren't used in other coutries that speak that same language. Or the words mean different things, or there are different dialectical nuances at play that not everyone who says they are "fluent" in a language will be aware of.

I'm a fluent English speaker, and so are you, but I bet I'd have problems understanding every word you'd say if I ended up meeting you and your mates in a boozer in Toxteth.

Given what I currently do for a living, I doubt you would have much trouble understanding me in English or any of the other languages I speak if you spoke them.:D


What I said actually does make sense though. Because the word in question is used in Spain as well as in South America, and if Evra has learned European Spanish then the meaning of that word in terms of it's context in Spain would be clear to him. The South American variation of the word seems to be even more relaxed than the Spanish version, but in Spain it is not a term of offence.

If Evras is indeed fluent in Italian, French, English, and Spanish, then it does make me suspect that enunciation, or more specifically pronunciation, could be playing a big factor here, as Suarez may have said one word and his accent, ability to enunciate etc., could have made one word sound very much like another far more offensive word.

Evra would have reacted to what sounded like something far worse than it actually was, and you could then get two waspy personalities not willing to give the inch that might allow common sense to kick in.

It is just one of many possibilities in the whole sordid mess.

hideous ape

Des wrote: »

Omar Esparza

Yip in the Spanish world he is most definitely "negrito". In the English speaking world we don't reference skin colour when speaking to or about people on a personal level but in the Spanish world they do. Here's another "negrito" as described by Dani Pacheco:



Negrito is used to describe all tanned or dark skinned people, its not just a term for people who are African. At the same time blanco or guero describes all light skinned people. In the interests of balance and in the interests of laughing at that jacket here's two "guero" or "blanco"...only one of these starred in the hit musical "Brokeback Montaña":

missingtime

Des wrote: »

I'm a fluent English speaker, and so are you, but I bet I'd have problems understanding every word you'd say if I ended up meeting you and your mates in a boozer in Toxteth.

Or limerick for that matter

JimsAlterEgo

Blatter wrote: »

Is Poyet possibly suggesting that Suarez used the word negro?

if he did hes fVcked, no context needed for that one.

Kess73

missingtime wrote: »

Or limerick for that matter

Have not picked up the typical Limerick accent yet.


Although I can say bolliiiix with the best of them at this stage.

Blatter

Blatter wrote: »

Is Poyet possibly suggesting that Suarez used the word negro?

Poyet should know, he was on the field that day

Blatter

rarnes1 wrote: »

Poyet should know, he was on the field that day

Apparently he's a close friend of Suarez, so he probably would know if that's the case.

I wonder how long more this process will take, anyone have any indication?

amiable

missingtime wrote: »

Or limerick for that matter

So it's agreed. A beers meet up in the Galvone?:D

amiable

Blatter wrote: »

Apparently he's a close friend of Suarez, so he probably would know if that's the case.

I wonder how long more this process will take, anyone have any indication?

Usually when charged by the FA you have around a week AFAIK to request a personal hearing.

I can see this dragging on for a bit though

Blatter

Blatter wrote: »

Apparently he's a close friend of Suarez, so he probably would know if that's the case.

I wonder how long more this process will take, anyone have any indication?

I'd imagine a few weeks.

Although, if it's not clearcut it could potentially drag on for months.

Tusky

Trilla wrote: »

Is it wrong I agree somewhat with Blatter?

Racism is wrong but I think the world would be a better place if the players got on with it and ignored it on the pitch. Action should be taken immediately if someone does it in the media or if it spreads to the stands and outside the grounds... but if it’s on the pitch it should be left there. I'd rather it didn't happen but Christ this ordeal and charades is tiring.

All the commotion and media coverage on this is too much when we have worse things in the game and in the world today. Sticks and stones etc...

Maybe it will finally stop if examples are made of these players, but it’s the grey areas (such as this one with Suarez and Evra) and what all this could lead to next (i.e. will players be brought up for saying "your ma" next!) that are the problems in my opinion. I'm not comparing racism to other forms of verbal abuse but I don't think it’s worth all this attention if these grey areas cannot be defined.

I've grown up listening to racist and sectarian terms for black, Chinese, Polish, Indians, Irish people abroad, Dubs, Northern Irish etc. that some wouldn't even have heard of. I'm listing some of them here and I don't mean to insult anyone by doing so: Gollywog, nignog, choc ice, ching chang, woodenspoon, roundeye, woolsack, sausage roll, faddys, huns, taigs, rag heads, chicken baltis, red-dots etc... the list goes on.

Even comments such as "don't let him take that corner, he'll put a shop on it" are funny in their own right but can be deemed racist.

Take worldwide languages into account along with the above makes it very difficult to relegate and define all of these.

I wish racism didn't exist but I'd rather Evra kept his mouth shut and took it on the chin, and that karma would bite Mr Suarez in the ass if he said what he's alleged to have said.

As a Liverpool fan I couldn't disagree more. You're basically saying that players are free to racially abuse other players once they do it on the pitch. And the people on the end of that abuse should just shut up and take it? Totally disagree. It's double standards. Everyone in football, and in society really, should be held to the same standards. Maybe if the FA do make an example of Suarez I (as a Liverpool fan I obviously hope they dont) or Terry than players will think twice next time before blurting out racist abuse.

bruschi

Kess73 wrote: »

Given what I currently do for a living, I doubt you would have much trouble understanding me in English or any of the other languages I speak if you spoke them.:D


What I said actually does make sense though. Because the word in question is used in Spain as well as in South America, and if Evra has learned European Spanish then the meaning of that word in terms of it's context in Spain would be clear to him. The South American variation of the word seems to be even more relaxed than the Spanish version, but in Spain it is not a term of offence.

If Evras is indeed fluent in Italian, French, English, and Spanish, then it does make me suspect that enunciation, or more specifically pronunciation, could be playing a big factor here, as Suarez may have said one word and his accent, ability to enunciate etc., could have made one word sound very much like another far more offensive word.

Evra would have reacted to what sounded like something far worse than it actually was, and you could then get two waspy personalities not willing to give the inch that might allow common sense to kick in.

It is just one of many possibilities in the whole sordid mess.

in fairness, its more of a colloquialism than a learned word or phrase. you would have to be living in Spain or South America to hear it. It'd be like teaching someone English and explaining certain words that are English, but only used in certain areas. South american spanish can be quite different to European. even words in Argentina would be pronounced very differently in Uruguay or Bolivia. I learned spanish, but never heard of Negrito until I was in South America. If Evra was taught out of a book, I wouldnt expect him to learn something like that. if he had lived in Spain or south America, then it may be different.

DOC09UNAM

People arguing over what word he used, it doesn't matter.

What matters is the context of which the word was used.

Kess73

amiable wrote: »

So it's agreed. A beers meet up in the Galvone?:D

You trying to get me shot or something? Was the Galvone further down from the Olympic Arms, as in towards the back of the Galvone industrial estate, or was it the same pub with a different name?

I would either be a hero in that area with my scouse twang or strung up with some sign about being an English barsteward around my neck. Me saying that I was born in Limerick would not cut any ice.:D

Kess73

DOC09UNAM wrote: »

People arguing over what word he used, it doesn't matter.

What matters is the context of which the word was used.

Of course the word matters. Once the word is confirmed, then the issue of context can be looked at in relation to the known uses of the word.

FatherTed

SlickRic wrote: »

Fergie really is the Master Troll.

the FA put out a statement, Liverpool said they'd defend the player. as if there's anything untoward in any of that.

the fact United went to the FA in the first place (whether it was Evra, Ferguson, both, or others in power at United), they never had any need to put out a statement as it's been clear they're backing Evra, so the idea that they've been brilliant, and we've been the pests is just hilarious.

a few of his followers will lap it up though

To be clear, it was Evra who told the ref during/after the game who included it in his match report.

Kess73

bruschi wrote: »

in fairness, its more of a colloquialism than a learned word or phrase. you would have to be living in Spain or South America to hear it. It'd be like teaching someone English and explaining certain words that are English, but only used in certain areas. South american spanish can be quite different to European. even words in Argentina would be pronounced very differently in Uruguay or Bolivia. I learned spanish, but never heard of Negrito until I was in South America. If Evra was taught out of a book, I wouldnt expect him to learn something like that. if he had lived in Spain or south America, then it may be different.

I know spanish can be very different from country to country, I was just making a point about how that particular word is common to both the Spanish language of mainland Europe and that of a few of the South American countries.

Evra and Suarez could have been having a back and fro in Spanish, well it is most likely that they were. Suarez says something in his varient of the language that sounds very like a far more offensive word in the spanish that Evra knows. Then we get the whole dog and pony show whe have had so far.

Negrito to me had two meanings, based solely on my knowledge of European Spanish. I knew it as a slang word and that it's literal meaning was little black person. A google search then let me know the origin of the word in relation to exploeres finding pygmies.

Nalz

Tusky wrote: »

As a Liverpool fan I couldn't disagree more. You're basically saying that players are free to racially abuse other players once they do it on the pitch. And the people on the end of that abuse should just shut up and take it? Totally disagree. It's double standards. Everyone in football, and in society really, should be held to the same standards. Maybe if the FA do make an example of Suarez I (as a Liverpool fan I obviously hope they dont) or Terry than players will think twice next time before blurting out racist abuse.

What I'm saying is that its too difficult to referee all of this and it could open a can of worms. It's wrong if someone is insulting a race and if that can be proven and is as clear as day then yes I'd like them to be punished but I feel all this could explode and go on and on.

Double standards do exist on the pitch already though. You'd take a kick, a slap, a shove whatever on the pitch but if someone did it to you outside of the grounds you wouldn't.

Don't get me wrong racism disgusts me but if we don't know about it from incidents on the pitch then all the better. I'm bringing my nephew to old Trafford on the 10th for the Wolves game. I'm sure United and Wolves fans will have a few chants using colourful language in it with 15,000 odd kids to hear... including my nephew. But of course nothing will be done or said about that. Again its not as bad as insulting a race but its more prominent, frequent and in your face on a daily basis. Hear no evil see no evil.

I'd rather something done about that then this hulabaloo that we wouldn't have heard of only Evra made a complaint.

DOC09UNAM

Kess73 wrote: »

DOC09UNAM wrote: »

People arguing over what word he used, it doesn't matter.

What matters is the context of which the word was used.

Of course the word matters. Once the word is confirmed, then the issue of context can be looked at in relation to the known uses of the word.

To me it doesn't matter if the weird was negro or negrito, I genuinely think it was just a misunderstanding, I don't he meant to racially abuse Evra.

Kess73

DOC09UNAM wrote: »

To me it doesn't matter if the weird was negro or negrito, I genuinely think it was just a misunderstanding, I don't he meant to racially abuse Evra.

I meant that it is important to find out the word first as some words would be pretty clear cut in their intent, whereas the two you mention can have different meanings to different cultures.


I'm in the same boat as you though in that I think wires were badly crossed between two spikey personalities, and it just snowballed from there.

My gut feeling is that Suarez did not make a racist comment towards Evra, but that for whatever reason be it accent, enunciation, background noise or whatever, it sounded like something far worse than it was to Evra.

Seaneh

Negro is used in exactly the same way as Negrito in latin american spanish. Negra and Negrita are also inter-changeable.

Blatter

DOC09UNAM wrote: »

To me it doesn't matter if the weird was negro or negrito, I genuinely think it was just a misunderstanding, I don't he meant to racially abuse Evra.

In fairness, it's nigh on impossible for us to make a judgement or form a solid opinion on this with the few facts we have available to us currently.

And another key thing in this is that it wouldn't necessarily be an isolated misunderstanding, Evra is insistent that Suarez repeatedly said <insert word here> to him.

That does muddy the waters a bit in regards to the theory of it being an isolated misunderstanding as it would be natural to assume that Evra showed discomfort/annoyance/outrage after the first said incident, so why would Suarez continue to use the term over and over again?(if he did)

A lot of interesting unanswered questions in this, and I don't know how anyone can jump to the conclusion it that it was almost certainly a misunderstanding right now.

Paparazzo

Funny bit from football365 today:

Of course, The Daily Mail is never a paper to miss an opportunity to be pious and pompous about something, so continues its condemnation of Blatter this morning.

'GO NOW, BLATTER' barks their back page headline.

And their back page story reports: 'Blatter dismissed racism as a problem on the football field, arguing that any such incident should be settled with a handshake at the end of the game.'

Let's just remind you of the comments from Mr Blatter that started this whole thing:

"There is no racism, there is maybe one of the players towards another, he has a word or a gesture which is not the correct one, but also the one who is affected by that.

"He should say that this is a game. We are in a game, and at the end of the game, we shake hands, and this can happen, because we have worked so hard against racism and discrimination."

By way of comparison, here is the closing paragraph from an opinion piece published on October 26, about the John Terry/Anton Ferdinand allegations:

'Football reflects us all as it always did, and these days it's both racist and not racist at the same time. Things may not be perfect but, at the end of the day, Gary, there are worse things to complain about.

'So, Mr Evra and Mr Ferdinand, I know you feel insulted. But perhaps in this case you could just put up with it and get on with the game.'

As you'll probably already know, that piece was written by Steve Doughty, and appeared in The Daily Mail.

DB10

monkey9 wrote: »

Although i'm rising for to this sh!t, Raheem Stirling!

Wasnt he bought from QPR? And how many appearances?

I'm taking about bringing through these players, eg Welbeck, Ashley Cole, Ferdinands etc.

DB10

DB10 wrote: »

Wasnt he bought from QPR? And how many appearances?

I'm taking about bringing through these players, eg Welbeck, Ashley Cole, Ferdinands etc.

What are you talking about?

Seriously?

DB10

Crazy Horse 6 wrote: »

Lol. And the award for dumbest post goes to

Reported.

citytillidie

Blatter wrote: »

Fergie condemns Gus Poyet's defence of Suarez. "It's inappropriate and he's chosen the wrong time to say what he did."

Fergie on Suarez/Evra row. "FA asked us not to say anything & we've abided by that. Liverpool have been drip-feeding stuff out."

Is that why he did an Interview to the Sunday Mirror about it after being told by the FA not talk about it?

Blatter

citytillidie wrote: »

Is that why he did an Interview to the Sunday Mirror about it after being told by the FA not talk about it?

Can you link me the interview?

Did he speak about any specific details of the Suarez/Evra case?

DB10

I think the politics and club bias have lately ruined this thread. Too many people taking their clubs side and not being objective.

DOC09UNAM

DB10 wrote: »

I think the politics and club bias have lately ruined this thread. Too many people taking their clubs side and not being objective.

You're talking about how many black players liverpool brought through the academy...


Opinions like yours are ruining the thread.