Was I ripped off with my website?

Louise Jordan

Hi,

I'm looking for advice please

I recently opened an E-Commerce shop, and with no web training myself I shopped around a good few different web designers to see who was offering what and for what price.

So, I went with a price that came in somewhere in the middle. The designer was just as excited about my new project as I was and kept telling me about how he was up all night improving clients websites and I showed him pictures
online and he convinced me he could emulate similar ideas for my site.

So, I went with him. He said the entire process between uploading photographs and entering products and everything would take a month.

So I agreed to his price of €3630 (inc VAT)

So, on the first day I went to his office with my cd of product photographs that he'd asked me for and I paid for my domains and hosting with my credit card, I also picked out some photoshop images I'd like to use and I also paid for those myself.

He built the site on the newly registered domains using Joomla and virtuemart while I was there and I went away happy enough that the shell of my website was there - he had also agreed to design my logo so the next week I visited his office and a girl did that for me (no issues there, she was brilliant and I love my logo)

I was constantly logging on from home and they were doing nothing, they'd given me a login for the site so I fiddled around and worked out how to enter the product details. So, I began entering the 200 plus products myself, and I finished entering them myself too.

I noticed when I was posting my products up that there was no way to keep track of inventory for both size and colour - his response was "It's free software - what do you expect" It was frustrating because to me €3630 is not free!!!!!

I also wanted a sort of commuinity on the site and he had said they would probably be able to find an app, which one of his employees did but none of them knew how to use it so that part of my site sits idle. The site wasn't compataible with Internet Explorer 7 and his answer was "You can't please everyone - it's free software" Eventually, after a lot of work on my part he seems to have ironed that out but he'd have left it had I not kept on at him.

He gave me 3 invoices before the process started and he demanded payment on the date of each invoice - saying he needed to pay rent and stuff! On the day of my 30th birthday my friends surprsied me and took me to Kildare for posh lunch and I had to stay sober and leave early to get his cheque over to him because I couldn't deal with him hassling me for money.


I also had asked him to build it on .ie and redirect to .com and he built it the other way round, when I asked him to change it he said no, because he knows best.

All of the design ideas I had went completely out the window, it took me ages to get him to do anything so I just accepted the grey nondescript background he gave me.

Anyway, the sites ok, I think it looks cheap - it's nice but it's not what i wanted or was promised. I am a very non confrontational person and I let him walk all over me - but just wondering if what I paid is standard for that kind of service or was I totally ripped off?

I'd love to post the link to my site but I'd be naming him but I can PM anyone if they are interested. I know this is really long winded so thanks to anyone who takes the time to read and reply

jenno86

Whats the website? Is it up? PM it to me if you don't want to post it up here.

To be honest I wouldn't have taken that ****e. You are paying him to build a website that you want, not one that he wants.

Free software? Thats not my problem! I'm paying you to design MY website and if you can't I'll get someone who can!

Giblet

Maybe I can help you out a little if you want. I have a little experience with eCommerce

willows

Always an excellent idea to get an list of deliverables so that you can tick off the items as completed and you and the developer know exactly what the project consists of. Like all good projects, put in milestones. IE this will function on this date, this will be completed this date, you get paid when this is up and running.

Always hold some funds back for say 6 weeks after delivery in case there are bugs to be fixed.

As for redirecting the site from a .ie to a .com thats a 5 minute task at most. You are the site owner so they can advise you but if you insist that have to do it for you I would imagine.

PM me the details of the site and I can take a look see.

Trojan

Ok, let's look at the facts here.

You paid 3k, and received:

1) a logo design* which you love,
2) a Joomla installation configured,
3) a VirtueMart install on top of Joomla
4) ... what else?

* make sure you get the logo in vector format (usually a .EPS or .AI file) so you can repurpose it for other uses e.g. signs, banners etc.

What you didn't get included within the 3k:

1) domains
2) hosting
3) data entry
4) custom design theme
5) customer support (in terms of helping you get up and running)

[The above lists are guesses based on my reading of the OP.]

I'd need to see the site to give a real analysis, but to me this is a real 50-50 case. A really good graphic design firm will charge you around the price you paid just for the logo (aside: we do logos for our clients for €400-600 which is mid-range I think). But that said, if they priced the logo separately I'd be interested in seeing it - actually a breakdown of the whole job would be good to see.

They can probably make a solid case that they provided you what was agreed - even if that's the letter but not the spirit of the agreement. Have you tried talking to them at all? Tell them you're not happy with the job - it's partially complete, but [it sounds to me like] they haven't given you a custom design theme.

Feel free to PM me the address for more feedback.

BarackPyjama

Branding and an e-commerce site should cost several multiples of what you paid when produced by a team of professionals in their respective disciplines. It sounds like you paid peanuts and got a monkey unfortunately.

Trojan

BarackPyjama wrote: »

Branding and an e-commerce site should cost several multiples of what you paid when produced by a team of professionals in their respective disciplines. It sounds like you paid peanuts and got a monkey unfortunately.

Aye, that's the flip side of the coin - a web design professional can look at this and think "you got an e-commerce site and custom logo design for €3k, that's a steal". That's why I'm reticent to pass sentence on the provider. Assuming the site has been setup correctly I think Louise hasn't been ripped off.

Where I would criticise the provider is their communications - obviously they haven't done a good job of setting out what the client does and does not get for their investment.

€3k may not a lot of money when it comes to a professional ecommerce site, but it's no small amount to a startup business owner.

willows

I agree with Trojan, I don't think there has been an over charge.

Yes agreed a full unique graphic design and custom built ecommerce store will be many multiples of what you paid, and take a lot longer than 1 month.

I price a project on the time it will take to implement all the clients requests, if you require more time , more designs, more customisations then it takes more time. This should all be agreed up front with the provider before the start.

There is a huge VirtueMart community out there and its quick to find if there is a ready made feature you are looking for.

http://forum.virtuemart.net/index.php

Stock control of sizes answer is here.
http://forum.virtuemart.net/index.php?topic=88886.msg292798#msg292798

I hope this helps.

business bloomer

I read with interest this post as I am a webdesigner as well. It's good to know what's the best way to deal with clients

I'm sorry for your bad experience, in the last month I've spoken to several potential clients and they all had the same problem: issues with the former web developers.

I strongly believe a webdesigner should make clear:

> how much is the upfront deposit, and if it is refundable
> what are the terms and condition of contract termination
> what are the contents of the contract with the client... say you need a logo, you need a template, you need a domain, this is the cost, this is the estimated time, this is the cost

I'm really sorry about that, Louise, if you PM me your website URL i can take a look at it and give you some SEO tips or other kind of suggestions.

Other webdesigners: what's written in your contract?

Louise Jordan

Thanks for everyone's replies, It's been really helpful - as I have zero knowledge of web design so I feel better knowing they didn't take advantage of me and that it is quite normal for developers to use free software?

I will say though that he did verbally promise me that he would add the products to the site so it bothered me that I ended up doing all of that - it took me days and days and he did say he would absorb the cost of the pictures I wanted to use and site registration etc - that stuff doesn't bother me too much.

He promised me a flyer and he is also a photographer and spoke with animation about how excited he would be to take pictures of the dogs wearing the collars etc (it's a dog accessory site)

I think what saddened me the most was that I chose his company because I felt like he was as passionate about my project as I was. I'm a marketing person and I will stay in work till midnight if I think it will take me that long to make something perfect for my client - He seemed as excited as I was and immeadiately (before I agreed to use his company) started emailing me ideas etc. As soon as the project was underway he seemed completley uninterested and unwilling to help me with anything.

So, maybe his attitude bothered me more than the poor communication of service.

For those who said things like "You paid peanuts and got a monkey" Well, I have a full time job and I was investing 10k in a little sideline project like this - I'm not a big shop, only small and to me, 3k of my 10 was a big enough amount. I only have 169 products....so in my eyes spending anymore than that would be like renting a premises on Grafton St to sell manure, well maybe web design doesn't work like that.

Thanks again for all of your replies and PMs which I'll respond to now

Lou

desaparecidos

Looks like you got very little for what you paid.

Anyone with the most basic of web development skills can "install" a prebuilt CMS and shopping cart.

I also wanted a sort of commuinity on the site and he had said they would probably be able to find an app, which one of his employees did but none of them knew how to use it so that part of my site sits idle. The site wasn't compataible with Internet Explorer 7 and his answer was "You can't please everyone - it's free software" Eventually, after a lot of work on my part he seems to have ironed that out but he'd have left it had I not kept on at him.

A sad fact is that most "professional" web developers / designers (who work for a web dev / design company) are usually pretty incompetent. Some stumble into the profession because it's "easy", others are hired (wrongly) due to a degree in software engineering / other such IT courses which don't even have web modals. Others are relics who simply refuse or are unable to upgrade their skillet to modern practices.

For a small e-commerce site, with €3630 in hand, you'd probably have been better off finding a freelancer. Some freelancers are complete cowboys too mind, they might show you an impressive portfolio, but that portfolio could have been easily built using open source CSMs and using free CSS templates.

If you take a rate of €50 per hour, for €3630 you should have gotten 9 solid days of work. I'd say getting your site with Joomla and VirtueMart up and running along with the Logo design might have taken 1.5 days max.

ocallagh

I disagree with some of the comments, this does not sound like good value.

You paid 3,630 (did this include VAT?) and you got a logo design, a Joomla/Virtue Mart installation and some ad-hoc development.

If the graphic designer is decent I agree somewhere around the 400 mark is fair for a logo (again, need to see logo - did you get in proper format for print etc?). In regards a base Joomla/Virtue Mart installation though, 3,230 is quite high. It takes about 1hr to upload Joomla and Virtue Mart and about 2hrs to configure database, paths, users etc. So far you're at about 600.

What happened after that will determine if this was a ripoff or not. Did you get a custom theme built? Do you have many different types of products that may have needed design? Can you link me to your website?

Was the population of 200 products part of the original 3,630 deal? Did he reduce the final price because you entered the data?

I agree with a lot of people on this forum when it comes to charging full whack for quality website development, but there's a big fat line between quality development and uploading an installation of Joomla/Virtue Mart.

ocallagh

willows wrote: »

I agree with Trojan, I don't think there has been an over charge.

Yes agreed a full unique graphic design and custom built ecommerce store will be many multiples of what you paid, and take a lot longer than 1 month.

OP was't looking for a custom built eCommerce store. A properly configured Joomla/Virtue Mart installation with a well designed custom theme should be achievable for what the OP paid for. It doesn't sound like he got that.

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup

I never knew those are the going rates for that kind of work, I need to get some of this action!

OP, can I ask where you found the designer? Google search, word of mouth, etc.?

desaparecidos

georgiecasey wrote: »

I never knew those are the going rates for that kind of work, I need to get some of this action!

A company might charge 50, 60 or even more per hour, but the actual developer doing the work will be on a fraction of that.

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup

desaparecidos wrote: »

A company might charge 50, 60 or even more per hour, but the actual developer doing the work will be on a fraction of that.

Yeah, I know, I contract out and do a lot of work on oDesk where rates are a fraction of the Irish market. The key is finding these kind of gigs.

BarackPyjama

georgiecasey wrote: »

I never knew those are the going rates for that kind of work, I need to get some of this action!

You'd make more money being a brain surgeon, a dentist or a vet. Why not get some of that action? My point being that web development isn't a get rich quick scheme. If you're not exceptionally good at it, then don't claim to be and rip clients off. Like the OP for example.

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup

BarackPyjama wrote: »

You'd make more money being a brain surgeon, a dentist or a vet. Why not get some of that action? My point being that web development isn't a get rich quick scheme. If you're not exceptionally good at it, then don't claim to be and rip clients off. Like the OP for example.

Well I'm not exceptionally good but I've seen the OP's website and for that on oDesk you'd probably pay $200 max.

BarackPyjama

georgiecasey wrote: »

Well I'm not exceptionally good but I've seen the OP's website and for that on oDesk you'd probably pay $200 max.

Jesus wept :rolleyes:

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup

BarackPyjama wrote: »

Jesus wept :rolleyes:

Yeah, it's shocking how much of a race to the bottom for price it is on oDesk. I presume that's why you posted the roll eyes smiley and you're not going to go on some spiel that all $200 website on oDesk must be crap. Yes, there's a lot of crap designers/developers who flake but you can easily get the OP logo designed, themed, and Magento or whatever installed and setup for $200.

was.deevey

My Personal take on the site is.

1) Webdesigner did not provide an adequete consultation PRIOR to accepting the job, not enough questions were asked to be able to provide an accurate quotation.

2) The OP did not outline EXACTLY what their requirements were e.g. Sizes etc required on products.

3) Bearing in mind this was an Irish firm developing the site the Odesk / Freelancer price model does NOT come into play.

4) Site not Being developed with IE7 in mind sounds like an off the shelf theme was used with minimal customization - for the price IMHO the theme should have had adequite modification to allow for older browsers (IE7-9, Safari4-5, FF 3-5, Chrome in any case).

5) Developer using the "Its free software what do you expect" is NOT any kind of excuse to use for something not working correctly, it was obviously his choice to work with this "free" platform, and he SHOULD have the nessesary skills to repair or modify as required by the client. This not being the case I would have to come to the conclusion that the "Designer" is not a web developer and lacks the knowledge on how to make mods to the aforementioned opensource software, and prefers to work with off the shelf temps/mods/components and if it doesn't do what its supposed to use that as an excuse as to why it cannot (he cannot) fix it.

Was the client ripped off ? ... hard to say without assessing the original conversations or any kinda of contract ..

Was the client overcharged ... I would have to say yes based on what has been outlined to us.

willows

I think you are referring to an outsourced job there, at these rates you could be dealing with a sub contract of a sub contract. Its better to shop local and have a door to bang on if its not working out.

p

To the OP - you didn't get ripped off, but the guy does sound a tad unprofessional, and did walk over you a bit. The good thing about him use 'free' software is that you might be able to move to another provider in the future who's familiar with the software.

I think you just need to toughen up a bit with future suppliers, and with this guy.

Good luck!

desaparecidos wrote: »

A company might charge 50, 60 or even more per hour, but the actual developer doing the work will be on a fraction of that.

Are you kidding, no company could afford to charge anything as low as that. 50/60 an hour is freelance rates, which is indeed at least what a freelance designer or developer would charge.

EIREHotspur

OP....you were ripped off.

Joomla is like a Templates way of doing a website.
It has a lot of great powerfull features but it is easier to build than doing a website from scratch.

If something doesn't work correctly then thats inexcusable.
For €3.5k+ you should have a website that you are totally happy with.

This guy's name was prob Roy Rogers....stay away from this cowboy.

Please PM me the link to it too as my curiosity gets the better of me.

Freddio

desaparecidos wrote: »

If you take a rate of €50 per hour, for €3630 you should have gotten 9 solid days of work.

3630 is 3000 + 21 % VAT I think.

Jennyrose

Freddio wrote: »

3630 is 3000 + 21 % VAT I think.

I have no idea why anyone would justify the 3K price for this particular open source website and those who feel it is justified within this forum better return to the drawing board and seriously reconsider what they are charging for their respective deliverables.

Based on the loose information provided, we have checked and we can verify how much (little) time was spent on this project. We have other information about it and if the OP would care to pm me, I will refer her onto the relevant information.

To the poster who mentioned peanuts and monkeys, 3,000 is most certainly not 'peanuts' and it is flippant or careless to say so.

We are not touting for business here- we're just tired of being tarred with the same shoddy brush done by others. And there is nothing so painful as inheriting a bunch of priory hall websites.

ocallagh

I hope she comes back after reading the first few comments. as they were unrelated and mis-leading.

There are quite few developers on this forum who like to ramble on about 50k budgets and custom development. I agree, you can justify a 100k+ spend on a custom built eCommerce platform, but similarly you can justify a 3k spend on a simple Joomla template site. It's not peanuts. They are two completely separate businesses and require separate development processes, separate websites and when it comes to it, separate advice on forums!

Just out of curiosity BarackP, if a small business came to you looking for an online site what would you recommend and what would you charge? 3k + Joomla/Paypal is the best option for some.

daithimacgroin

I'd say you could have gotten someone to do what that guy did for about 15$ on fiver.com

CptSternn

Thats way to much for a prefab site template, which is what you got. There are places on the net if you host with them setup Joomla sites for free for you. They charge €5 a month for hosting and you get pretty much everything you got sure.

Always request a bespoke site design. If they are just slapping up a template site anyone can do it and you can have it done for free.

Pixelcraft

ocallagh wrote: »

Just out of curiosity BarackP, if a small business came to you looking for an online site what would you recommend and what would you charge? 3k + Joomla/Paypal is the best option for some.

Just to jump in, and not commenting on any other companies work, imo for smaller budget ecommerce sites today it's hard to look past a custom design running on shopify or big cartel.

desaparecidos

p wrote: »

Are you kidding, no company could afford to charge anything as low as that. 50/60 an hour is freelance rates, which is indeed at least what a freelance designer or developer would charge.

Well, it's 60 per hour where I work.