Orange Lodges in the South

FinnLizzy

I was wondering if there are any buildings in what is now the Republic that used to be used for Orange Order meetings?

It's just this image I get in my head that everywhere in the south disowned any remnents of British rule (where possible) and the Orange Lodges would have been swept under the carpet.

jonniebgood1

There are orange lodges in Donegal, Monaghan and Cavan as far as I know. I would say there are also Orange halls in other counties although most of the lodges would travel to NI for parades on July 12th. There is a parade in Rossnowlagh in Donegal everyyear also but I don't know of any other one.

Judgement Day

Here's a picture of an Orange Hall in Co.Monaghan - doesn't appear to be very active. Apparently there are plans afoot to reopen some Orange Halls around the country - Bandon, Co.Cork being one that has been in the news. Not a fan of the Orange Order, despite being black and having had family members who were in it, but I do find their Lambeg drumming and marching quite entertaining. Pity the 12th can't, as has been suggested, be turned into a St.Patrick's Day type of festival.


Stonebridge Orange Hall, Co. Monaghan In the townland of Shanmullagh.
Photo: Ciaran Campbell

R P McMurphy

I think that there is an annual parade in Co. Cavan, maybe called after someone called Fox, not very sure though. Here is footage of an interesting one last year

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Iphs4ses4w

Madam

A lot of Hibernians would be Unionist so they'd be quite comfortable marching with Orange men.I know when my uncle joined the AOH my grandfather (old IRA man)disowned him for a while because of it!

As to Orange halls there are still a few in Donegal in fact there's one where the parish band shares instruments with the OO.

losthorizon

Interesting Doc here on Orangemen in Dublin.

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/doconone/radio-documentary-orangeman.html


(btw whatever you think of RTE their radio docs are simply world class)

owenc

Madam wrote: »

A lot of Hibernians would be Unionist so they'd be quite comfortable marching with Orange men.I know when my uncle joined the AOH my grandfather (old IRA man)disowned him for a while because of it!

As to Orange halls there are still a few in Donegal in fact there's one where the parish band shares instruments with the OO.

The last time i checked they were a bitter republican organisation, but as with everything else in northern ireland its probably different to donegal, the donegal ones are probably very soft, you wouldn't find that here. I know if they came down coleraine on the 12th they'd probably get stones thrown at them and all sorts.

owenc

As for lodges i'm pretty sure theres some in donegal, i don't know about anywhere else though. I think there might be one in dublin. Not sure really, my family left that ages ago so we don't really talk about it anymore.

owenc

Judgement Day wrote: »

Here's a picture of an Orange Hall in Co.Monaghan - doesn't appear to be very active. Apparently there are plans afoot to reopen some Orange Halls around the country - Bandon, Co.Cork being one that has been in the news. Not a fan of the Orange Order, despite being black and having had family members who were in it, but I do find their Lambeg drumming and marching quite entertaining. Pity the 12th can't, as has been suggested, be turned into a St.Patrick's Day type of festival.


Stonebridge Orange Hall, Co. Monaghan In the townland of Shanmullagh.
Photo: Ciaran Campbell

Sames the folk in it i wouldn't have any contact with very bitter. I think its an embarrassment to protestant culture but whatever, most protestants don't see that because they've been raised with it. Anyway good lucky with setting orange lodges up down south doubt it'll work and whos gonny join them?

Nhead

There is a lodge for Dublin and Wicklow:

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Dublin-Wicklow-LOL-1313/128724713824787

http://comeheretome.wordpress.com/2011/05/03/plaques-of-dublin-grand-orange-lodge-of-ireland-dawson-street/

The first meeting of the Orange Lodge was in Dublin, you can see the plaque on Dawson St.
http://comeheretome.wordpress.com/2011/05/03/plaques-of-dublin-grand-orange-lodge-of-ireland-dawson-street/

baalthor

There are several active Orange Lodges in Cavan.
Cavan County Museum once had exhibits on the history of the Orange Order, Hibernians and Foresters but there is no mention of these on the current website.

Orange marches continued in Cavan until the 1930s, there are pictures of Twelfth marches in local history books. My father's recollection was that these marches weren't greatly appreciated by many of the local population.

The Farnham family of the Farnham Estate (now SAS Radisson Farnham Estate) were major local supporters of the Orange Order (and the Conservative party and the Unionist Party - whose first leader was from Cavan).

Slightly OT, the museum does have an exhibit on the history of the Farnham family and estate. There is also an accompanying book in which I noticed a photo of Lord Farnham home on leave during WWII.
The photo, taken at the front of Farnham house shows Lord Farnham with "friends from the US embassy" plus several body-guards armed with Thompson SMGs. I think the photo was taken before the US entered the war.
It would be very interesting to know what his Lordship was discussing with his friends but this may be something we will never find out ..

FinnLizzy

Cheers for all the posts. I find the Orange Order in general to be a bigoted and offensive organisation. But I'm usually ashamed of the repression that they feel here in the South. They're as patriotic as any of us, but some people don't see the Orange in the Tri-colour.

Which is another thing, since the tri-colour is supposed to represent peace between the Green and Orange, would the OO in the south ever see it as a positive symbol?

R P McMurphy

FinnLizzy wrote: »

Cheers for all the posts. I find the Orange Order in general to be a bigoted and offensive organisation. But I'm usually ashamed of the repression that they feel here in the South. They're as patriotic as any of us, but some people don't see the Orange in the Tri-colour.

Which is another thing, since the tri-colour is supposed to represent peace between the Green and Orange, would the OO in the south ever see it as a positive symbol?

Do you mean repression from the government or from ordinary citizens? Didn't eamonn o'cuiv in the last government approve substantial grants to rehabilitate lodges in the border counties. Not exactly a repressive measure. I don't know if those plans developed or if they were shelved due to the impending doom which struck the country in the years following the announcement

Tiocfaidh Armani

R P McMurphy wrote: »

Do you mean repression from the government or from ordinary citizens? Didn't eamonn o'cuiv in the last government approve substantial grants to rehabilitate lodges in the border counties. Not exactly a repressive measure.

I think he means in the sense they can't march in Dublin etc. They're a bigoted organisation, if there's a Catholic organisation similar I hope they die a slow death as well.

FinnLizzy

R P McMurphy wrote: »

Do you mean repression from the government or from ordinary citizens? Didn't eamonn o'cuiv in the last government approve substantial grants to rehabilitate lodges in the border counties. Not exactly a repressive measure. I don't know if those plans developed or if they were shelved due to the impending doom which struck the country in the years following the announcement

Not from the government, from the general public. At least that was the image I got growing up. I never saw a Union Flag or any Orange related event in Ireland. It's still very rare to see anyone in the Rep. of Ireland openly supporting Rangers, or considering themselves subjects of the Queen.
And with the Love Ulster riots of 2006, it just shows that even the slightest openly loyal event can warrant a huge riot.

R P McMurphy

FinnLizzy wrote: »

Not from the government, from the general public. At least that was the image I got growing up. I never saw a Union Flag or any Orange related event in Ireland. It's still very rare to see anyone in the Rep. of Ireland openly supporting Rangers, or considering themselves subjects of the Queen.
And with the Love Ulster riots of 2006, it just shows that even the slightest openly loyal event can warrant a huge riot.

There are certain parts of Cavan and Monaghan where you can see union flags on occassion, even down to the Irish version of the placename being painted over on signposts

Judgement Day

R P McMurphy wrote: »

There are certain parts of Cavan and Monaghan where you can see union flags on occassion, even down to the Irish version of the placename being painted over on signposts

Pull the other one. You would be asking to get burnt-out if you tried that lark.

donaghs

FinnLizzy wrote: »

I was wondering if there are any buildings in what is now the Republic that used to be used for Orange Order meetings?

It's just this image I get in my head that everywhere in the south disowned any remnents of British rule (where possible) and the Orange Lodges would have been swept under the carpet.

There was one in Dun Laoghaire, dont know where it was off the top of my head, but I'd sure you could find with some web research. There was one on Upper Rathmines Road, building still visible as a Gospel Church today.

R P McMurphy

Judgement Day wrote: »

R P McMurphy wrote: »

There are certain parts of Cavan and Monaghan where you can see union flags on occassion, even down to the Irish version of the placename being painted over on signposts

Pull the other one. You would be asking to get burnt-out if you tried that lark.

Take drum in Co. Monaghan as an example or ashfield in cavan

Judgement Day

R P McMurphy wrote: »

Take drum in Co. Monaghan as an example or ashfield in cavan

What sort of places are you talking about - halls, private houses....

R P McMurphy

If you take Drum as an example it is a small town. Would have a high number of Free Presbyterians from there. I am not a native of those parts but did some work around there and would know some people from the town. Would be no pubs etc. Ashfield would be ajoining the area but located in Co. Cavan (near Cootehill).

OP BTW if you are interested in this there is a group (or at least was) called the border minorities group based in Newbliss Co. Monaghan but also office in Cavan town which would be able to deal with any queries in relation to this

Judgement Day

This piece from the Irish Independent of Nov.2007 is interesting as it states that there were then 35 (!) Orange Halls in Cavan & Monaghan.


The remains of Drumartin Orange Hall nr.Cootehill, Co.Cavan

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/arson-attack-on-orange-hall-1209616.html

LOCAL vandals have been blamed for destroying an Orange Hall in a blaze early yesterday.

Orange Order Grand Secretary, Drew Nelson, thought it was an attack by a group of people living in the area rather than a paramilitary incident.

The Drumartin Orange Hall, about four miles from Cootehill, Co Cavan, was destroyed in a fire which has left its dozen members devastated.

Mr Nelson said the most likely cause of the blaze was arson.

"It was shuttered up and there appears to have been a hole in one of the shutters and something was pushed through," he said yesterday. "We have 35 halls in Monaghan and Cavan and only three have been attacked in the last 26 years.

"Last night was Halloween and that was a good night for cover. It's a big blow to them (the members). It's a small lodge of about 12 members, there's only four walls left and it will have to be re-built."

Charlie McAdam, a member of the Border Minority cross-community group, said the attack had sent "shockwaves" across the community.

"This was not just an Orange hall, it was used for fundraising events and local youngsters used it for table tennis, it was an active lodge"

The hall was established in 1925.

Gardai are treating the blaze as suspicious.

jonniebgood1

R P McMurphy wrote: »

If you take Drum as an example it is a small town. Would have a high number of Free Presbyterians from there. I am not a native of those parts but did some work around there and would know some people from the town. Would be no pubs etc. Ashfield would be ajoining the area but located in Co. Cavan (near Cootehill).

OP BTW if you are interested in this there is a group (or at least was) called the border minorities group based in Newbliss Co. Monaghan but also office in Cavan town which would be able to deal with any queries in relation to this

There is a pub in Drum. It only opens very short hours but that is due to the size of the place. It is more of a hamlet than a town- there is one small shop in the place and not much more. I was not aware of the high number of free Presbyterians in Drum- are you sure of that. There is a big difference between free Presbyterians and Presbyterians, the latter being more predomianate in the Drum, Newbliss area as far as I know. There are also a higher number of Methodists in the area than is typical. There would be some kind of orange order activity in the area with several orange halls been in the news in recent years being targeted by people from nearby towns.

owenc

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

There is a pub in Drum. It only opens very short hours but that is due to the size of the place. It is more of a hamlet than a town- there is one small shop in the place and not much more. I was not aware of the high number of free Presbyterians in Drum- are you sure of that. There is a big difference between free Presbyterians and Presbyterians, the latter being more predomianate in the Drum, Newbliss area as far as I know. There are also a higher number of Methodists in the area than is typical. There would be some kind of orange order activity in the area with several orange halls been in the news in recent years being targeted by people from nearby towns.

No there isn't they're nearly the exact same bar a few things, i don't think freebies sing pslams or something idk what it is but theres not much difference. Whats the protestant population % there? What is the most protestant town down south?

Fratton Fred

owenc wrote: »

No there isn't they're nearly the exact same bar a few things, i don't think freebies sing pslams or something idk what it is but theres not much difference. Whats the protestant population % there? What is the most protestant town down south?

Largest Anglican parish is in Dalkey.

Fratton Fred

donaghs wrote: »

There was one in Dun Laoghaire, dont know where it was off the top of my head, but I'd sure you could find with some web research.

York Road apparently.

owenc

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Largest Anglican parish is in Dalkey.

Lol are you foreal apparently only 25percent is protestant that's quite sad really there's nowhere for Protestants down south it seems

Benny_Cake

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Largest Anglican parish is in Dalkey.

Actually,I believe it is Taney Parish in Dundrum, that's what they claim anyway:
http://www.taneyparish.ie/history.html

Lol are you foreal apparently only 25percent is protestant that's quite sad really there's nowhere for Protestants down south it seems

You'll find most people down south don't really care what church someone attends.

Tiocfaidh Armani

owenc wrote: »

Lol are you foreal apparently only 25percent is protestant that's quite sad really there's nowhere for Protestants down south it seems

Think the 26 counties is 5% or so Protestant, there is plenty of Churches for them.

jonniebgood1

owenc wrote: »

No there isn't they're nearly the exact same bar a few things, i don't think freebies sing pslams or something idk what it is but theres not much difference. Whats the protestant population % there? What is the most protestant town down south?

I am not big into religon and the differences I am talking about are specifically in relation to the outlook of people. There is a big difference as I see it in the identity of the Presbyterians and free presbyterians. This includes their attitude to the orange order and is based on opinions I have been given first hand by people in the area.

BigCon

I'd say if you go back to the 19th century most large towns had orange lodges.
Here's an article that mentions one in Mountrath in Co. Laois.
http://www.emerald-isle-gifts.com/vintage-irish-town-prints/laois-vintage-photographs/mountrath---laois---upr--main-st.asp

Actually according to wiki, there are still 9 counties in the south with Orange Lodges http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Order

losthorizon

86% of the population according to the 2006 census was Roman Catholic. The rest was mainly Church of Ireland, Presbyterian, Methodist, Muslim and other Protestant religions. In the last few census(sp?) the percentage of catholics has been falling and the number of Protestants rising in the Republic. So in the results of the latest census published soon I would expect the same trend.

Having said that the vast majority of Protestants in the South feel nothing for the Orange Order I think except for some in the border areas possibly

losthorizon

http://www.cso.ie/census/census2006results/volume_13/tables-1-10.pdf

With regard to The Cork Orange Lodge I think I read years ago that it doesnt meet as there arent enough members.

ejmaztec

Tiocfaidh Armani wrote: »

Think the 26 counties is 5% or so Protestant, there is plenty of Churches for them.

I think that many of the CofI churches have met the same fate as the Listowel one.

http://stjohnstheatrelistowel.com/

Judgement Day

ejmaztec wrote: »

I think that many of the CofI churches have met the same fate as the Listowel one.

http://stjohnstheatrelistowel.com/

Extinction beckons but it will be a while yet. There are four churches in my local parish and only a handful of church attending parishioners. Christenings, Weddings, Funerals, the Harvest Thanksgiving and that's about it.

owenc

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

I am not big into religon and the differences I am talking about are specifically in relation to the outlook of people. There is a big difference as I see it in the identity of the Presbyterians and free presbyterians. This includes their attitude to the orange order and is based on opinions I have been given first hand by people in the area.

Well i don't know any free presbyterians they are a rarity, but i'm pretty sure by the sounds of things they'd be quite bitter and staunch obviously.

owenc

losthorizon wrote: »

86% of the population according to the 2006 census was Roman Catholic. The rest was mainly Church of Ireland, Presbyterian, Methodist, Muslim and other Protestant religions. In the last few census(sp?) the percentage of catholics has been falling and the number of Protestants rising in the Republic. So in the results of the latest census published soon I would expect the same trend.

Having said that the vast majority of Protestants in the South feel nothing for the Orange Order I think except for some in the border areas possibly

This will be interesting how fast are the protestant religions growing? I know from even reading on here recently alot of folk have been converting. When is the data released.? Still waiting on the ni one aswell, it'll also be interesting to see how the catholic birth rate is going.

owenc

Tiocfaidh Armani wrote: »

Think the 26 counties is 5% or so Protestant, there is plenty of Churches for them.

I wouldn't class 5% as plenty.

Chuck Stone

FinnLizzy wrote: »

And with the Love Ulster riots of 2006, it just shows that even the slightest openly loyal event can warrant a huge riot.

Slightest openly loyal event? How about deliberately provocative and blithely sectarian?

A love Ulster parade?

More like a 'love the type of people who would like to walk through every Nationalist estate in NI unimpeded' parade.

One of love Ulster's main organisers was Willie Fraizer who believed that loyalist murderers should not have been sent to prison in the first place and who also had a soft spot for that evil civilian murdering degenerate Billy Wright.

Love Ulster indeed.

owenc

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Slightest openly loyal event? How about deliberately provocative and blithely sectarian?

A love Ulster parade?

More like a 'love the type of people who would like to walk through every Nationalist estate in NI unimpeded' parade.

One of love Ulster's main organisers was Willie Fraizer who believed that loyalist murderers should not have been sent to prison in the first place and who also had a soft spot for that evil civilian murdering degenerate Billy Wright.

Love Ulster indeed.

Exactly i'm convince they deliberately go out to wind up catholics. My dad was in the police and thats what he reckons. For example, rasharkin, what reason have they got to go through there? None its obvious they are out to wind up. I can't wait to the days that that organisation no longer exists.

ejmaztec

Judgement Day wrote: »

Extinction beckons but it will be a while yet. There are four churches in my local parish and only a handful of church attending parishioners. Christenings, Weddings, Funerals, the Harvest Thanksgiving and that's about it.

It won't be long before the RC churches become tourist information offices as well.:D

Chuck Stone

ejmaztec wrote: »

It won't be long before the RC churches become tourist information offices as well.:D

The more the better.

ejmaztec

Chuck Stone wrote: »

The more the better.

Things seem to be a lot less significant than they used to be. I wonder if the Orange Lodges in the North are dwindling along with everything else, or whether they're maintaining their numbers.

Chuck Stone

ejmaztec wrote: »

I wonder if the Orange Lodges in the North are dwindling along with everything else, or whether they're maintaining their numbers.

The Orange Order has blamed an increase in secularism for a sharp decline in its membership in Northern Ireland.

Grand Secretary Drew Nelson said its Christian ethos was one reason behind its membership falling from 76,500 in 1948 to about 35,700 currently.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/8126543.stm

I think increasing secularism will be good for young people in NI. Hopefully they'll grow up seeing that they're not all that different to each other.

owenc

ejmaztec wrote: »

Things seem to be a lot less significant than they used to be. I wonder if the Orange Lodges in the North are dwindling along with everything else, or whether they're maintaining their numbers.

I don't know if the halls are declining but I know that the numbers are decreasing any wonder the bands aren't the same as 100 years ago when it wasn't sectarian

isthatit

whats the point in having a parade to commerate a 400 year old war victory if you cant go and rub the losers nose in it

Judgement Day

owenc wrote: »

I don't know if the halls are declining but I know that the numbers are decreasing any wonder the bands aren't the same as 100 years ago when it wasn't sectarian

The Orange Order wasn't sectarian a hundred years ago - that's a new one on me.

owenc

No it wasn't there wasn't any of them bonfires or riots either it was just like a scouts club to Catholics anyway it's not the same why do you think everyones leaving it

Judgement Day

owenc wrote: »

No it wasn't there wasn't any of them bonfires or riots either it was just like a scouts club to Catholics anyway it's not the same why do you think everyones leaving it

Protestant emigration from Northern Ireland, apathy towards the past, growth of the middle classes, better opportunities for young people of all communities...no links just thoughts and once again we're way off topic.

steddyeddy

owenc wrote: »

Lol are you foreal apparently only 25percent is protestant that's quite sad really there's nowhere for Protestants down south it seems

Owenc there isnt a place for protestents or catholics down south really. There isnt the culteral tension that existed in some parts of the north. There is plenty of anglican parishs down south aright.

Chuck Stone

Yeah most of the time you don't have a bloody clue, or care, what religion people are down here because it's not really an issue.

I think the non-Catholic Christian population has been energised in more recent times though (in the cities anyway).