Lions 2013 players impressing at RWC

razorblunt

You also have guys like Beattie to come back into the frame.

Heaslip seriously needs to pull his socks up in the next 2 seasons and shake off the reputation of Houdini that he's building up for himself.

Tom Palmer should be nowhere near that team either or any International team for that matter!

bamboozle

touts wrote: »

Not trolling and certainly not bullsh*t. Sexton can't perform under pressure. For 2 years he has fluffed game after game after game. You need to take your blue tinted glasses off and realise there is a serious issue with the lad. Do you seriously want us to believe that an outhalf who struggles to kick over 40% is a small problem. Trimble is a better passer than Sexton so by your logic he should have been the outhalf. Keatley, Madigan, Humphries etc have better kicking form than the guy and they are hardly world beaters. Outhalf is going to be a serious proble area for Ireland in the coming years (perhaps after ROG's performance on Saturday you could say it is now a serious issue).

well if its not bullsh*t its clearly just ignorant nonsense, Sexton has performed in 2 HC finals (i certainly remember a youthful ROG missing kicks against Northampton in 2000) Sexton's kicking average for the HC last season was over 90%, you clearly dont watch rugby if you're claiming Madigan & Humphries have better kicking form that Sexton as neither are first choice kickers at their provinces when they play and Humphries is probably the best example of a hot and cold player.

bamboozle

razorblunt wrote: »

You also have guys like Beattie to come back into the frame.

Heaslip seriously needs to pull his socks up in the next 2 seasons and shake off the reputation of Houdini that he's building up for himself.

Tom Palmer should be nowhere near that team either or any International team for that matter!

thankfully not many people who's opinions count concur with this houdini nonsense, how do you think SOB and Ferris got through so much ball carrying in the WC, because the rest of the pack were working their butts off securing posession. I doubt there are any in the irish pack who have issues with the trojan workload undertaken by heaslip, his game has changed as he is not the primary ball carrier, he is doing more selfless team work and deserves great credit for it.

totallegend

touts wrote: »

Not trolling and certainly not bullsh*t. Sexton can't perform under pressure. For 2 years he has fluffed game after game after game. You need to take your blue tinted glasses off and realise there is a serious issue with the lad. Do you seriously want us to believe that an outhalf who struggles to kick over 40% is a small problem. Trimble is a better passer than Sexton so by your logic he should have been the outhalf. Keatley, Madigan, Humphries etc have better kicking form than the guy and they are hardly world beaters. Outhalf is going to be a serious proble area for Ireland in the coming years (perhaps after ROG's performance on Saturday you could say it is now a serious issue).

Out-half play is not all about goal-kicking, that's something Irish people don't seem to realise. We won't get anywhere with an out-half who can't play a high tempo running game, the days of playing for territory went out with the dinosaurs, as we saw at this World Cup. Besides, just going on the evidence of RWC 2011, Lee Halfpenny will be in the Lions squad, he takes the goal-kicks, problem solved.

Anyway, Sexton's kicking percentages in the Heineken Cup last year were above 80%, yes he struggled badly at the World Cup for whatever reasons but make no mistake, Sexton is by a country mile our best option at out-half (assuming ROG's career is winding down) and he is an excellent player. If he is not on the Lions tour in 2013, I will be shocked. Who is ahead of him? Priestland, if he can maintain this form and then who? Flood is muck, Wilkinson is too old and Jackson has a lot of developing to do.

Am I a Leinster fan? Yes. Does that change anything? No. It's because I've watched Leinster tear the best teams in Europe apart with Sexton pulling the strings that I know what a good player he is. It's because I've seen him land goal-kick after goal-kick from all sorts of angles and distances that I know he has the ability.

I'm probably in the minority here in that I was actually interested in rugby in 1997, but that Lions team had an out-half who was picked for his rugby-playing ability, not his goal-kicking; they just got someone else (fullback) to kick the goals. What happened? They won, the last Lions team to do so, and they played some fantastic rugby.

touts

touts wrote: »

Not trolling and certainly not bullsh*t. Sexton can't perform under pressure. For 2 years he has fluffed game after game after game. You need to take your blue tinted glasses off and realise there is a serious issue with the lad. Do you seriously want us to believe that an outhalf who struggles to kick over 40% is a small problem. Trimble is a better passer than Sexton so by your logic he should have been the outhalf. Keatley, Madigan, Humphries etc have better kicking form than the guy and they are hardly world beaters. Outhalf is going to be a serious proble area for Ireland in the coming years (perhaps after ROG's performance on Saturday you could say it is now a serious issue).

Give me 4 examples in the 30 or so games that he has played in the past 2 years please

touts

bamboozle wrote: »

well if its not bullsh*t its clearly just ignorant nonsense, Sexton has performed in 2 HC finals (i certainly remember a youthful ROG missing kicks against Northampton in 2000) Sexton's kicking average for the HC last season was over 90%, you clearly dont watch rugby if you're claiming Madigan & Humphries have better kicking form that Sexton as neither are first choice kickers at their provinces when they play and Humphries is probably the best example of a hot and cold player.

I don't have the stats to hand but I would seriously doubt that Sexton ever averaged over 90% or that Madigan and Humphries ever averaged less than 38%. I do watch rugby and I can tell you there are AIL players who kick better than Sexton did in the last month (although I'll admit playing in front of 500 people is less stressful than 50,000). Sure ROG made mistakes as a young player. I remember him looking like he wanted the earth to open up and swallow him after a couple of HEC finals. But they were the exception rather than the norm. With Sexton good performances are the exception rather than the norm.

I'll be delighted if Sexton proves me wrong. I really thought he had turned a corner when reports of his stirring speech at half time in the Heineken cup came out. But up to now on the pitch I have seen nothing that gives me confidence that when ROG retires (and arguably he is well past his sell by date as it stands) that we have an outhalf in Sexton who can punish mistakes and dominate games. Teams will know within 5 minutes of the start of a game what form Sexton is in and that they can give away as many penalties as they want between the halfway to 10 meter line without danger of conceding points. Far from Grand Slams and World Cups Ireland will be fighting to avoid the Wooden Spoon with an outhalf as erratic as Sexton.

And I'm not just picking on Sexton. I look at our selection of outhalfs (ROG, Sexton, Wallace, Humphries, Keatley) and I shudder. It is just right now Sexton is the one in position and Sexton is the one failing to delivery. If Keatley or Humphries or whoever gets a similar chance in the 6 nations then I'll be back here telling the Munster and Ulster fans the same hard truths that the Leinster fans are attacking me over now.

razorblunt

bamboozle wrote: »

thankfully not many people who's opinions count concur with this houdini nonsense, how do you think SOB and Ferris got through so much ball carrying in the WC, because the rest of the pack were working their butts off securing posession. I doubt there are any in the irish pack who have issues with the trojan workload undertaken by heaslip, his game has changed as he is not the primary ball carrier, he is doing more selfless team work and deserves great credit for it.

That's probably the same donkey work DOC's been doing for years and getting 0 credit for too is it?

I never said I think he's a Houdini, but he's had some very poor performances on the International scene lately and that will count against him unless changed.
I'm not sure who you define as people who's opinions count by the way, not everyone is going to agree with your opinions that doesn't mean they don't count.

@touts

@touts, you do realise that Sexton still manages to perform even when his kicking has gone to pot?

Giving penalties away at will against any team, regardless of the accuracy of their kicker can only help us. I'd be happy enough for us to allow teams give us the opportunity of getting the ball into the corner freely.

bamboozle

razorblunt wrote: »

That's probably the same donkey work DOC's been doing for years and getting 0 credit for too is it?

I never said I think he's a Houdini, but he's had some very poor performances on the International scene lately and that will count against him unless changed.
I'm not sure who you define as people who's opinions count by the way, not everyone is going to agree with your opinions that doesn't mean they don't count.

the Irish and Leinter team management is whom i was referring to. They see the work that him and DOC are putting in and this is why they are selected!

Webbs

@touts as a Welshman I was pleased that O'Gara was picked to play the QF whilst he is an excellent outhalf you know what to expect and therefore defend accordingly if his pack isnt on top.
Sexton if Welsh would quite possibly be the starting outhalf as he has impressed me when playing, his ability to give time and more importantly space to the backline by playing flatter and fixing the opposition backrow and outhalf allows those outside him to thrive, whilst his goalkicking has occasionally not been great Ireland should be looking to win their games with tries and not penalties with the talent they have

BoardsMember

Bamboozle - a word of advice, someone who says that Sexton has not done it in the last two years and has serious problems just doesnt know anything about rugby, you are wasting bytes & energy.

touts

Look the reality is debating with Leinster fans about the flaws in Sexton is as pointless as debating with Munster fans about the flaws in ROG. It is impossible to convince a die hard supporter. I know there was a spin in the UK media that Wales wanted ROG instead of Sexton but believe me Kidney did not fall for that. Kidney stuck with Sexton as long as he could and finally had to drop him in the full knowledge that doing so would deal a devastating blow to the only outhalf he was likely to have left in the squad for the six nations (I'm assuming ROG's slip about retirement was more thought out than the IRFU tried to spin it). If Kidney was forced into making such a decision then clearly there is a serious proble with Sexton because Kidney always has a long term view. You may consider my knowledge of rugby to be as poor as I have no doubt your knowledge of the game is but I have great faith in the collective knowledge of Kidney Gaffney, Smal Kiss etc and they believed they had to drop Sexton knowing it would be a setback to their 6 nations chances.

My point is Sexton is not living up to the billing he is getting from the Leinster fans here and in the media. Sure he has potential and sure he tackles better than ROG but as I said earlier if tackling and passing is the criteria people judge an outhalf by then Trimble will be our starting outhalf in the six nations (which clearly will not happen). Sexton (or whoever becomes the outhalf) needs to up his game considerably or Ireland will be back to the bad old years of endless wooden spoons.

bamboozle

touts wrote: »

Look the reality is debating with Leinster fans about the flaws in Sexton is as pointless as debating with Munster fans about the flaws in ROG. It is impossible to convince a die hard supporter. I know there was a spin in the UK media that Wales wanted ROG instead of Sexton but believe me Kidney did not fall for that. Kidney stuck with Sexton as long as he could and finally had to drop him in the full knowledge that doing so would deal a devastating blow to the only outhalf he was likely to have left in the squad for the six nations (I'm assuming ROG's slip about retirement was more thought out than the IRFU tried to spin it). If Kidney was forced into making such a decision then clearly there is a serious proble with Sexton because Kidney always has a long term view. You may consider my knowledge of rugby to be as poor as I have no doubt your knowledge of the game is but I have great faith in the collective knowledge of Kidney Gaffney, Smal Kiss etc and they believed they had to drop Sexton knowing it would be a setback to their 6 nations chances.

My point is Sexton is not living up to the billing he is getting from the Leinster fans here and in the media. Sure he has potential and sure he tackles better than ROG but as I said earlier if tackling and passing is the criteria people judge an outhalf by then Trimble will be our starting outhalf in the six nations (which clearly will not happen). Sexton (or whoever becomes the outhalf) needs to up his game considerably or Ireland will be back to the bad old years of endless wooden spoons.

i love it, the reason Trimble was shunted from the center out to the wing at both provincial & international level is becuase his handling let him down time and time again in the center, you must be watching a different player to the coaches.

Bottom line is Sexton has backed his ability with two Heiniken Cup medels, he had a cracking season last year scoring 138 HC points which was the 4th highest number of points scored ever in a HC season

touts

bamboozle wrote: »

i love it, the reason Trimble was shunted from the center out to the wing at both provincial & international level is becuase his handling let him down time and time again in the center, you must be watching a different player to the coaches.

Bottom line is Sexton has backed his ability with two Heiniken Cup medels, he had a cracking season last year scoring 138 HC points which was the 4th highest number of points scored ever in a HC season

Look you're not going to convince me that Sexton is the answer to all our prayers and I'm not going to convince you that Sexton has a lot of work to do to fulfill his potential. It boils down to the fact that Sexton's middle name is "Jesus". For Leinster fanatics it's Jonathan "Jesus" Sexton and for most other rugby fans it's Jonathan "Oh Jesus Christ!" Sexton.

wixfjord

Hilarious stuff here! Good man touts, brightening up a dreary Tue morning with your comedy!

Quint2010

Heaslip would not make a Lions squad based on his world cup performances. He was distictly patchy. SOB should be playing 8 from now on for Ireland based on WC performances. Ferris 6, Jennings 7.

touts

wixfjord wrote: »

Hilarious stuff here! Good man touts, brightening up a dreary Tue morning with your comedy!

Would that it was comedy. But I'm not rising to the Leinster fans bait any more. It's pointless (although I do admire their faith in and support for their boy). Sexton's performances over the 6 nations will prove which of us knows the most about rugby.

Chucky the tree

Touts, can you name all the matches in the last few years where he hasn't performed under pressure?

Webbs

touts wrote: »

Would that it was comedy. But I'm not rising to the Leinster fans bait any more. It's pointless (although I do admire their faith in and support for their boy). Sexton's performances over the 6 nations will prove which of us knows the most about rugby.

I am neither a Munster Leinster or Irish fan but Kidney has always had a particular game plan (with Munster and Ireland) that they stick to and that is to be predominantly a forward driven game with low risk back play which is a shame as Ireland have a lot of great backs throughout the provinces. Both ROG and D'arcy selection back up this argument.
If Ireland and the management showed more adventure then Sexton will really shine (as he does for Leinster) and could well be a contender for the Lions as that would suit his game.
For me its more the Ireland game plan and sexton dont really suit each other and is not a reflection on Sextons abilities

desertcircus

touts wrote: »

bamboozle wrote: »

i love it, the reason Trimble was shunted from the center out to the wing at both provincial & international level is becuase his handling let him down time and time again in the center, you must be watching a different player to the coaches.

Bottom line is Sexton has backed his ability with two Heiniken Cup medels, he had a cracking season last year scoring 138 HC points which was the 4th highest number of points scored ever in a HC season

Look you're not going to convince me that Sexton is the answer to all our prayers and I'm not going to convince you that Sexton has a lot of work to do to fulfill his potential. It boils down to the fact that Sexton's middle name is "Jesus". For Leinster fanatics it's Jonathan "Jesus" Sexton and for most other rugby fans it's Jonathan "Oh Jesus Christ!" Sexton.

Serious question: can you name a single thing he's poor at, barring his kicking in a green jersey? If you seriously think he hasn't performed in two years, did you actually watch the Heineken Cup final he got man of the match for? If you think he's not good enough, then okay, but can you actually explain it beyond getting annoyed about his kicking for Ireland?

wixfjord

One could easily make the argument that Sexton is in the top three OHs in Europe currently, taking into account the last year.
Perhaps top 6 in the world imo.

Wilkinson, Flood, Trin Duch, Beauxis, Parks, Michalak, Priestland, Jones Hook, Biggar?
I'm probably missing out a few, but it's Evans, Sexton and ROG for me, in that order probably, with Carter, Cooper and Steyn ahead of them.
Top 6 in the world isn't bad for a "bottler" "experiment" is it?

Podge_irl

touts wrote: »

Look the reality is debating with Leinster fans about the flaws in Sexton is as pointless as debating with Munster fans about the flaws in ROG.

However, both are topped by the pointlessness of debating anything about outhalf play with someone who thinks Trimble has better passing then Sexton.

BoardsMember

Quint2010 wrote: »

Heaslip would not make a Lions squad based on his world cup performances. He was distictly patchy. SOB should be playing 8 from now on for Ireland based on WC performances. Ferris 6, Jennings 7.

Completely agree with you. While SOB looked great at 7 with a go forward pack, he was lie a fish out of water against Wales. He's a fine player, but he's no openside flanker. As for Heaslip, even at the back of a dominant scrum he was reluctant to take the ball and break with it. I think he did it twice all tournament, and he played all 80 minutes in all 5 games. SOB is absolutely cut out for this part of number 8 play. We'd need to have height at 6 & 7 if he was to take Jamie's place. But at the moment, I'm just hoping that Schmidt can get Heaslip back in form. For a while I thought he had changed his game for club (when Jennings was out) and country to take on the groundhog role, and that was the reason he's been less noticeable. While I think that explains it to a certain extent, I think there is little doubt that he's been below par now for a while. As such, he'd struggle to get into the Lions starting team, but he'll definitely make the squad.

Brewster

castie wrote: »

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Is he not qualified till then? I thought it was sooner for some reason. He has no chance then I'd say. He won't walk into the squad ahead of Cronin intially and will struggle to start 2 games in the 2013 6N's.

If Cronin isnt getting alot of game time at Leinster he could struggle to get a place too.

If Fla sorts out his calf issues he would be 1/2 with Best.
If not whoever is getting the game time at Munster will probably be picked ahead of Cronin unless he somehow gets ahead of Strauss.

Fla was a great character and player however, he has no role to play for Ireland now. We need someone to learn off Best and eventually take over from him in a couple of year. Cronin is in pole position for this role, who knows what will happen with Strauss. If a Lions test team was named in morning, Best would be starting hooker and possibly even a captain. If a new Irish captain is named, Best would be right at front of q!

Mr.SlumDuck

@Touts..........You are in shreds if you think that Madigan or anybody else for that matter in Leinster will take Sextons place. The guy has been awesome since 2009. His kicking is usually excellent and he had a bad few games with the boot. Beyond ignorant of any rugby knowledge if you think that it was some sort of experiment.

And if you think he cant handle the pressure watch the Heineken Cup final from eith 2009 or 2011.

GerM

castie wrote: »

If Fla sorts out his calf issues he would be 1/2 with Best.
If not whoever is getting the game time at Munster will probably be picked ahead of Cronin unless he somehow gets ahead of Strauss.

Flannery, at this point in time, will be doing well to get a few games in a row ever again for Munster. Three times he has come back and three times his body has broken down almost immediately. For Munster, he has 5 starts in almost two and a half years and none since May of 2010. At 33, I hope the Irish set up are planning without him. Even if he was able to maintain fitness now, he'll be a bit player for a year or two before retirement. The focus should turn to Sherry now and see if he can deliver on his undoubted potential.

Brendan97

my starting team would be

1. Healy
2. Best
3. A.Jones
4. Gray
5. AW.Jones
6. Ferris
7. Warbourton
8. SOB
9. Phillips
10. (Realistically it could be any of them)
11. Earls
12. Roberts
13. Tuilagi
14. North
15. Kearney

Quint2010

Brendan97 wrote: »

my starting team would be

1. Healy
2. Best
3. A.Jones
4. Gray
5. AW.Jones
6. Ferris
7. Warbourton
8. SOB
9. Phillips
10. (Realistically it could be any of them)
11. Earls
12. Roberts
13. Tuilagi
14. North
15. Kearney

Chris Ashton would be on one wing and Foden would be full back on my team. He is a superb FB.

wixfjord

Anyone want to put their cards on the table with possible bolters? What about George Ford, Christian Wade, Conway, Gilroy or Duncan Weir?

Will be interesting to look back on those lot in two years, will probably come too soon for a lot of them, but they'll all be 21.

Hype710

wixfjord wrote: »

Anyone want to put their cards on the table with possible bolters?

Tim Visser, Richardt Strauss!