‘OCCUPY Wall Street’ protestors on Dame Street

talkinyite

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

:rolleyes: who are the most senior counsel that she went to? did she pay them? why not produce their opinions that say that the courts would tie them up? who is her instructing solicitor?

I've no idea who she is. You think she should have said more?

FreudianSlippers

talkinyite wrote: »

I've no idea who she is. You think she should have said more?

wasn't specifically asking you, I just highly doubt the accuracy of what she said.

Scofflaw

talkinyite wrote: »

Just came across this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4klALeFpvc

...a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.

What saddens me here is that the time to protest about the folly of the system was during the Celtic Tiger, but the only protests during the Tiger years were by people looking to get yet more money. Standing at the graveside roaring and shouting about how it died and how we don't want to pay the death duties is largely meaningless.

cordially,
Scofflaw

talkinyite

Scofflaw wrote: »

...a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.

What saddens me here is that the time to protest about the folly of the system was during the Celtic Tiger, but the only protests during the Tiger years were by people looking to get yet more money. Standing at the graveside roaring and shouting about how it died and how we don't want to pay the death duties is largely meaningless.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Nice. I think what they're saying though is that the game isn't over?

Bannasidhe

Permabear wrote: »

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'your ideological proclivities' and what pray tell would those be?



I have commented on SW (advocating cuts if necessary).
Reform of the political system. (Less TDs, cuts to pension entitlements, abuse of Whip system)
De-centralisation of powers from central government back to local authorities. ('Smaller' government)
Complete restructuring of the HSE.

Rarely comment on the banks and here I was asking questions as my background is not in economic theory (am sh*t hot on political theory tho ) so I was looking for explanations from those who do know what they are talking about - and from this you have not only ascertained my ideological proclivities but assigned a belief system to me?

Perhaps I inadvertently broke into a rousing chorus of the Internationale (note to self - learn words of 'Commie' songs).

meglome

Permabear wrote: »

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Well said... actually very well said.

meglome

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I have commented on SW (advocating cuts if necessary).

If necessary? :eek:

Bannasidhe

meglome wrote: »

If necessary? :eek:

Yes - if necessary - my suggested area would be rent allowance which is essentially a government subsidy of private landlords.:D
If local authorities are in a position to convert people's mortgaged homes into social housing as suggested by the Keane Report why can't some of the ghost estates also be re-allocated as social housing and offered to those in receipt of rent allowance? Means tested Rent would be paid as people (even those on SW) currently do with local authority housing - so at least income is generated as opposed to all expenditure.
We have houses left to rot. We have thousands on the housing waiting lists. We have millions being paid out via rent allowance to private landlords. The State 'owns' many of these houses via NAMA...the State pays rent allowance.

Then there are medical health cards for all OAPS - feck that. Means-test it. They can take my mother's one for a start - the brother pays for her to have full VHI cover, she may have to pay a bit more for the 900 tablets a week she is on but the only people to really suffer will be Marks and Spensers.

Child benefit - means test it!

So yes - I do think cuts should be made - I just don't think they should use a chainsaw to do it.

Permabear

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20Cent

Scofflaw wrote: »

What saddens me here is that the time to protest about the folly of the system was during the Celtic Tiger, but the only protests during the Tiger years were by people looking to get yet more money. Standing at the graveside roaring and shouting about how it died and how we don't want to pay the death duties is largely meaningless.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Just because you are beat down and defeated doesn't mean everyone is.


cordially
20Cent

Bannasidhe

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

While those on the right such as yourself would prefer to down play the role of the financial sector, developers, and it's allies in government urge us all to share the blame while refusing to share the pain.

The left did not cause this mess. The right did. Social Partnership was an FF/PD purchase of the Unions - who haven't been left since Connolly was shot. The Welfare Bonanza was mirrored by the TD salaries, top tier public servant bonanza - another FF/PD initiative.

Yes, there was an element of nouveau riche houses as status symbols - wonder what the demographic of those particular purchasers were - my guess would be FF/PD voters. However, owning one's home has been an aspiration of Irish people since before the formation of the state - it did not arrive with the Celtic Tiger - it was exploited by those riding the wave of the speculation boom.

Thatcherite policies imported by FF and the PDs (and yes, I do recall you believe she saved the British economy) caused this mess and now the resources of the State are being marshalled to protect the architects of that same mess by those on the right.

Well, looking at the unmerciful cock-up the right has made of this country - colour me pink!

Permabear

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EI_Flyboy

Scofflaw wrote: »

What saddens me here is that the time to protest about the folly of the system was during the Celtic Tiger, but the only protests during the Tiger years were by people looking to get yet more money. Standing at the graveside roaring and shouting about how it died and how we don't want to pay the death duties is largely meaningless.

cordially,
Scofflaw

You're wrong. People are protesting now because the conditions for protest exist now, they didn't back during the tiger years. Ignoring the protesters with a tough schiess attitude isn't going to make them go away and if held by those who are in charge will lead to an increase in the protesters' numbers and possibly an escalation to riots. Riots, largely meaningless or not are still riots. No offence but just because you fail to see the problem does not mean it will go away.

Bannasidhe

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Well, since you seem to view me a some voice from the Left - may I say I agree there has been an appalling litany of government failure which is why I have primarily commented on reform of the political system - I rarely refer to the banks except as a symptom of what happens when government fails in it's duties and fails to focus on it's actual role.

I have also advocated smaller central government... the last thing I would suggest is we give them more power!

Do you have me confused with some one else or are you so busy attacking 'us' lefties that you haven't actually read what I have said but simply made assumptions based on what you perceive as my ideological proclivities?

If so - you have made some serious errors in your assumptions as to what I do and do not advocate.

Permabear

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Bannasidhe

Permabear wrote: »

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Apology accepted. While I am a fraction of a millimetre to the left of centre - there are degrees, as there is on the Right. I am no Joe Higgins and I assume you are no Norman Tebbit (but maybe a Michael McDowell )

Scofflaw

EI_Flyboy wrote: »

You're wrong. People are protesting now because the conditions for protest exist now, they didn't back during the tiger years.

Yes, that's what I said.

EI_Flyboy wrote: »

Ignoring the protesters with a tough schiess attitude isn't going to make them go away and if held by those who are in charge will lead to an increase in the protesters' numbers and possibly an escalation to riots. Riots, largely meaningless or not are still riots. No offence but just because you fail to see the problem does not mean it will go away.

No offence, but exactly the same thing was said about the last round of protests, and the round before that. And protesting about the pain of a burst bubble when nobody protested the creation of the bubble remains unimpressive anyway - if anything, the less impressive the more people protest.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Bannasidhe

Scofflaw wrote: »

Yes, that's what I said.



No offence, but exactly the same thing was said about the last round of protests, and the round before that. And protesting about the pain of a burst bubble when nobody protested the creation of the bubble remains unimpressive anyway - if anything, the less impressive the more people protest.

cordially,
Scofflaw

So - genuine question - what do you suggest people do?

cancercowboy

So what is the Dame Street protest achieving?

Bannasidhe

cancercowboy wrote: »

So what is the Dame Street protest achieving?

Hope.

maximoose

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Hope.

How, exactly?

From my experience it seems to be getting more of a negative reaction than positive

FreudianSlippers

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Hope.

How is running around complaining about the situation creating hope?

EI_Flyboy

Scofflaw wrote: »

Yes, that's what I said.



No offence, but exactly the same thing was said about the last round of protests, and the round before that. And protesting about the pain of a burst bubble when nobody protested the creation of the bubble remains unimpressive anyway - if anything, the less impressive the more people protest.

cordially,
Scofflaw

I reckon this has longer legs. This isn't a local protest, its global. That means they have solidarity with more than 1,400 other protests which also means the social pressure on them to keep going is enormous and that's only the hardcore who'll ride out any increase in general optimism. If things keep getting worse for the average Joe, the number of protesters will grow. Do you think the next budget is going to make things easier for people...?

Scofflaw

Bannasidhe wrote: »

So - genuine question - what do you suggest people do?

1. Work for a better country. Work to repair the damage done, and then keep working to make things work better. Don't put reform on the back burner every time the economy seems to be doing well.

2. Look at the facts. Don't be taken in by codology, rhetoric, and made-up magic money trees.

3. See point 1.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Bannasidhe

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

How is running around complaining about the situation creating hope?

Empowerment.


Complaining about lack of civil rights in the 60s - what did that achieve? Martin Luther King???...who he?

Gay Liberation - Stonewall riots...what did they achieve?....Harvey Milk, David Norris ...who they?

Votes for women... suffragists complaining...what will that achieve?... (where did I put my polling card?)

Do all OAPs still have Medical Health cards - gee, wonder if that's because they complained?

Student Fees?...They back yet? Apparently not...government seem to be dragging their heels on that...are they afraid people will complain?

And we must not forget the Daddy of all complaints...Boston Tea Party...what ever did THAT achieve?

Shall I go on? There's still the Fall of the Berlin Wall, Easter 1916, French Revolution....

People may be complaining, but they are vocalising those complaints. They are meeting, organising, finding a voice.

Underestimate the potential of what is happening at your peril...

FreudianSlippers

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Empowerment.


Complaining about lack of civil rights in the 60s - what did that achieve? Martin Luther King???...who he?

Gay Liberation - Stonewall riots...what did they achieve?....Harvey Milk, David Norris ...who they?

Votes for women... suffragists complaining...what will that achieve?... (where did I put my polling card?)

Do all OAPs still have Medical Health cards - gee, wonder if that's because they complained?

Student Fees?...They back yet? Apparently not...government seem to be dragging their heels on that...are they afraid people will complain?

And we must not forget the Daddy of all complaints...Boston Tea Party...what ever did THAT achieve?

Shall I go on? There's still the Fall of the Berlin Wall, Easter 1916, French Revolution....

People may be complaining, but they are vocalising those complaints. They are meeting, organising, finding a voice.

Underestimate the potential of what is happening at your peril...

All with clear agendas and goals. Occupy Dame Street, not so much.

Bannasidhe

Scofflaw wrote: »

1. Work for a better country. Work to repair the damage done, and then keep working to make things work better. Don't put reform on the back burner every time the economy seems to be doing well.

2. Look at the facts. Don't be taken in by codology, rhetoric, and made-up magic money trees.

3. See point 1.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Can we not do both at the same time? Are work and thought mutually exclusive activities?

How do we know what needs reform unless we identify where the problems are and work out alternate ways to do things?

The Occupy Movement has not, as far as I am aware, called for strikes - general or otherwise. It has not advocated everyone 'drops out'. It has called for accountability as to how our money is spent (we will have to pay back all of the IMF/ECB loans so I'm counting that as 'ours') and some accounting of how our money was spent.

It is also a focal point for dialogue - but lord, it ain't half annoying some people. I can't for the life of me understand why a movement with no political affiliation that exists only to enable people who feel voiceless to be heard and build a consensus among the citizenry as to how we want to be governed seems to cause such extreme reacti... oh, hang on... could it be fear of the unknown....?

Permabear

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Bannasidhe

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

All with clear agendas and goals. Occupy Dame Street, not so much.

Seriously - you think Stonewall had a clear agenda. Nah, Mate. Judy Garland had just died and the NYPD raided the Stonewall Inn one time too many. The Diesel Dykes and Drag Queens vented all over the NYPD. It took a while for an actual agenda...

Do you think when Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat in 1955 she had an agenda that would see an African-American elected President of the US?

This is the birth of a global movement - just 6 weeks old.

Bannasidhe

Permabear wrote: »

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I was asked what people complaining achieved - the French complained in 1789 - BIG TIME.