Bond 23 - "Skyfall" *spoilers from post 595*

mike65

That and the fact Bonds were designed as action packed travelogues from the start, that was very much what the public wanted before business class, package holidays and "finding myself travelling" took off.

Our man in Havana

M three wrote: »

They should have made it for an older audience, make it much darker. after all it is about espionage.
For example show the woman after bardem blows her head off. And when bardem is in custody, do a flashback scene to when he was being tortured instead of him talking about it.

They don't want to piss off the censors. They want that 12A rating above all else. They won't ever do a 18 rated Bond. It would be good but it will sadly never happen.

sonic85

really good movie i thought but the the way bardem dies is very disappointing in my opinion. supposed to have been a fantastic agent at one point but instead of squaring off against bond and giving us an epic fight for a finale he gets a knife in the back. weak weak end to a good villain.

is it true craig wants out of the franchise?

ancapailldorcha

sonic85 wrote: »

is it true craig wants out of the franchise?

Apparantly so

Jimdagym

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Apparantly so

If I was married to Rachel Weisz, I wouldnt be too eager to go out to work either...

siblers

Finally got round to seeing it, enjoyed it, bits of it were very good especially up in Scotland but I found the plot to be pretty weak, although Javier Bardem did make a pretty decent villian. Bit on the long side too.

YouTookMyName

So, Severine was sold as a sex slave when she was a young teenager, and now 'belongs' to Silva. She is clearly abused, and is utterly terrified. So Bond sneaks naked into her shower. As you do.

krudler

YouTookMyName wrote: »

So, Severine was sold as a sex slave when she was a young teenager, and now 'belongs' to Silva. She is clearly abused, and is utterly terrified. So Bond sneaks naked into her shower. As you do.

then doesn't give a sh1t when she's mercilessly shot a few minutes later.

Jimdagym

krudler wrote: »

then doesn't give a sh1t when she's mercilessly shot a few minutes later.

What do you want him to do? Curl into the fetal position and cry?

Our man in Havana

He could have stopped it.

krudler

Jimdagym wrote: »

What do you want him to do? Curl into the fetal position and cry?

no but the "waste of a good scotch" line was pretty misogynistic, which I know Bond is supposed to be but it felt out of tone, especially since Severine isn't a villain, if it was some someone who double crossed him then hey fair enough but this woman dies as a direct result of Bond and he doesn't give a crap.

Boo Radley

Jimdagym wrote: »

What do you want him to do? Curl into the fetal position and cry?

I'll go out on a limb here and suggest that krudler wasn't proposing the polar opposite, extreme reaction but perhaps a balance somewhere in between both.

You know, maybe something approaching a human reaction.

Jimdagym

Our man in Havana wrote: »

He could have stopped it.

krudler wrote: »

no but the "waste of a good scotch" line was pretty misogynistic, which I know Bond is supposed to be but it felt out of tone, especially since Severine isn't a villain, if it was some someone who double crossed him then hey fair enough but this woman dies as a direct result of Bond and he doesn't give a crap.

Boo Radley wrote: »

I'll go out on a limb here and suggest that krudler wasn't proposing the polar opposite, extreme reaction but perhaps a balance somewhere in between both.

You know, maybe something approaching a human reaction.

Bond's one and only interest was catching and/or stopping Silva. This comes above his own safety. He had triggered the "radio" he had, which meant he had to control the situation before the choppers showed up or there would be hell breaking out. Also, he wouldnt have known how long that would have taken. I dont see how he could have overpowered all those guys with AFAIR was a one shot pistol while they were all on high alert.
As I saw it, it was the ambivilence to her death and the "waste of a good scotch" line that helped take the tension out of the situation which enabled him to get a half second start on Silva's men. He was playing the situation.
He was also very outwardly nonplussed to Vespa's death in CR/QOS, but we all know how much that affected him. I wouldnt say 00 agents would last too long wearing their heart on their sleeve.

Boo Radley

Jimdagym wrote: »

Bond's one and only interest was catching and/or stopping Silva. This comes above his own safety. He had triggered the "radio" he had, which meant he had to control the situation before the choppers showed up or there would be hell breaking out. Also, he wouldnt have known how long that would have taken. I dont see how he could have overpowered all those guys with AFAIR was a one shot pistol while they were all on high alert.
As I saw it, it was the ambivilence to her death and the "waste of a good scotch" line that helped take the tension out of the situation which enabled him to get a half second start on Silva's men. He was playing the situation.
He was also very outwardly nonplussed to Vespa's death in CR/QOS, but we all know how much that affected him. I wouldnt say 00 agents would last too long wearing their heart on their sleeve.

Well argued points there but I do still think krudler has a point. At no instance does Bond make it clear he gives a damn about the death of the woman he 'shower surprised' the night before.

There was nothing stopping him expressing some disgust once the choppers arrived after he dispatched the henchmen with his newly revived aiming skills. Thus retaining his cool when it mattered but showing some humanity when in control. How he dispatched Silva wasn't even that passionate or brutal as might be expected from a man who was repulsed by his actions on that day.

Whatever the reason behind the line about wasting scotch it was in pretty bad taste.

gandalf

Saw this the other night and was very underwhelmed by it. I am definitely not a fan of the Daniel Craig Bond films so much so I don't feel they are Bond films anymore.

syklops

krudler wrote: »

I felt the same, it went from a menacing scene to a quip instantly and was jarring, the "waste of good scotch" line was fairly misogynistic, which was probably the point I suppose.

To loosely quote Casino Royale

Vesper:"it didnt bother you, killing those people?"
Bond:"I wouldn't be much good at my job if it did"

As someone else said would you expect him to weep about it? He's a cold, hard bastard. He fell in love with Vesper and got stung. He wont make the same mistake again by feeling for other women he meets in the line of business.

syklops

gandalf wrote: »

Saw this the other night and was very underwhelmed by it. I am definitely not a fan of the Daniel Craig Bond films so much so I don't feel they are Bond films anymore.

Thats what many of us like about them.

gmisk

krudler wrote: »

no but the "waste of a good scotch" line was pretty misogynistic, which I know Bond is supposed to be but it felt out of tone, especially since Severine isn't a villain, if it was some someone who double crossed him then hey fair enough but this woman dies as a direct result of Bond and he doesn't give a crap.

I thought this was kind of out of place as well....but there is an on going discussion on the Mark Kermode film show about it...
It was perhaps done as a cover up to a degree so he looked tough up against Javier Bardems character

Sleepy

Daniel Craig wrote:

I've been trying to get out of this from the very moment I got into it," he told the magazine. "But they won't let me go, and I've agreed to do a couple more, but let's see how this one does, because business is business and if the **** goes down, I've got a contract that somebody will happily wipe their ass with.

That sounds more like his sense of humour than any genuine "I want out" to me...

pixelburp

syklops wrote: »

To loosely quote Casino Royale

Vesper:"it didnt bother you, killing those people?"
Bond:"I wouldn't be much good at my job if it did"

As someone else said would you expect him to weep about it? He's a cold, hard bastard. He fell in love with Vesper and got stung. He wont make the same mistake again by feeling for other women he meets in the line of business.

That may be so, but between ambushing Severine in the shower (a woman he knew to be mentally damaged, and then some), and his callousness during the duel, I think this Bond has turned into a fairly repugnant 'hero' at this stage. I can accept Bond as a male fantasy-trip, but Craigs version is a pretty awful person really; it's the sort of thing I'd expect Archer to do, not James Bond (though I guess Alan Moore got there first by portraying him as a callous sex-offender)

MisterAnarchy

pixelburp wrote: »

I think this Bond has turned into a fairly repugnant 'hero' at this stage. I can accept Bond as a male fantasy-trip, but Craigs version is a pretty awful person really

+1
Craig's Bond is too thug like ,he doesnt have the charm or suaveness of previous Bond's,he is too wooden and cold.

syklops

pixelburp wrote: »

That may be so, but between ambushing Severine in the shower (a woman he knew to be mentally damaged, and then some), and his callousness during the duel, I think this Bond has turned into a fairly repugnant 'hero' at this stage. I can accept Bond as a male fantasy-trip, but Craigs version is a pretty awful person really; it's the sort of thing I'd expect Archer to do, not James Bond (though I guess Alan Moore got there first by portraying him as a callous sex-offender)

Bond was always an awful person. You couldnt do his job and still have time to read to the sick at weekends. I suppose it depends which Bond you think is the real Bond. For most people the new Bond movie that came out when they were a kid is the Bond for them.

Depending on how old you are, thats anyone from Sean "Next virgin please"Connery to George "Boo hoo, sh'e gone" Lazonby to Roger "Will sleep with anything" Moore to Timothy "Dont get mad get even" Dalton to Pierce "Happy-go-lucky" Brosnan.

The kind of Daniel Craigs Bond is was alluded to in Casino Royale "former SAS types with big smiles and expensive watches", "I would ask you dont get emotional but I don't think thats your problem is it Bond?", etc etc. In my opinion it was a nice return to the Bond of the books, and a departure from the invisible car driving, has a gadget for any situation, can dodge machinegun fire Bond.

Bond from the Books was very brutish. My favourite comparison is "You Only Live Twice", in the movie Tanaka asks him if he would prefer a Vodka Martini instead of sake, and he says no he likes sake, especially when its served at the correct temperature. Whereas in the book he says to Tanaka "Enough of this sake, bring on the vodka!".

Craig's Bond is too thug like ,he doesnt have the charm or suaveness of previous Bond's,he is too wooden and cold.

Cold and thuggish, yes. Wooden, not at all. I saw some real genuine, human acting from him. You could see the character was human, while trying to maintain a super-human personae.

ancapailldorcha

I like Craig's Bond the best as well. He's a welcome change from your usual gritty but still a nice guy-type protagonists you see in these films. Thought the scotch scene was a perfect example of why he hesitated to avoid hitting Severine but ultimately, his first concern was apprehending Silva.

Mickeroo

The Bond Girl has been offed in all of Craig's films so far funnily enough (apart from Olga Kurlywhatsherface in QoS, but I don't think they got off with eachother?).

I liked the "scotch" bit, if he could have saved her he would have I think, but his own survival and apprehending Silva were the priorities, also since Vesper I don't think he does emotional attachment when it comes to women anymore. I think M has a go at him over it in QoS after the oil drowning iirc.

opinion guy

Also to point out - he probably did not realise that Silva would intentionally shoot the girl on the first round. Silva had set it up to be some kind of game after all.

Handsome Bob

Only saw it today, thoroughly enjoyed it without being absolutely blown away. I felt that the performances were what kept it all together. Was worried about Bardem but he was a brilliantly creepy fcuker. Bond is also brilliantly portrayed I have to say, I hope they don't drop the borderline alcoholic aspect of the character, it's something that has great potential.

I found it amusing that Mallory implied that Bond was over the hill even though he is surely only at the early stages of his career (Casino Royale involved a good bit of trial and error on the job if I remember correctly). So they're certainly emphasising the toll such a job can take on someone rather than it all just being about birds, one liners and martinis.

Sad Professor

I have extremely mixed feelings about this film. On one hand there's some excellent action sequences, a great villain, some fantastic cinematography and a script with actual ambition. But on other hand, there's some very dodgy plotting, a few downright cheesy moments that are totally out of place with the tone established in the previous two films, and an emphasis on drama over action that simply doesn't befit this character. I admire what Mendes tried to do with this film and it will almost surely be remembered as one of the most interesting entries in the series. However I just don't think it works. I actually prefer Quantum of Solace with all its flaws over this. And hopefully the next film will be a return the Bond established in Casino Royale.

Pepe LeFrits

It looked great and had some enjoyable sequences.

On the other hand, Bond manipulating and then 'surprising' the repeated rape victim before getting her killed and not giving a **** was creepy as hell.

The plot was also rubbish and didn't really make much sense. The cheesy gags were totally out of sync with the overall tone of the film, particularly the sociopathic Bond getting upset when his car is blown up (but full of bullet holes isn't a concern), but most of all the bit with the radio that looked like a tiny walky-talky - that felt like it was taken straight out of Austin Powers. Parodying the parody of itself?

Mostly though the film just felt like a rehash of others recently, and if it hadn't been a Bond film it would have been immediately dismissed as an unoriginal, studio-driven cash-in clone. Obviously the recent films have been heavily influenced by Bourne but this was more than just a little inspired by Nolan's Batman. I mean, there was Bardem's baddy, who aside from possessing a matching plan, bore quite a few similarities personality-wise to the Joker. Then there was the Bond's 'death' and physical struggle to redemption, the soundtrack which at times was very familiar, and of course, the Bond backstory, which was basically: Bond is Bruce Wayne. Grew up in countryside mansion with secret underground, parents killed young, grew up angry, friendly and helpful butler type floating around.

Finally, the ending with the ice plunge (two Austin Powers style 'I'm going to walk off and assume you're dead!' moments in one film, nice) and church malarkey was just stupid.

Not nearly as good a film as has been made out.

Handsome Bob

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

this was more than just a little inspired by Nolan's Batman. I mean, there was Bardem's baddy, who aside from possessing a matching plan, bore quite a few similarities personality-wise to the Joker. Then there was the Bond's 'death' and physical struggle to redemption, the soundtrack which at times was very familiar, and of course, the Bond backstory, which was basically: Bond is Bruce Wayne. Grew up in countryside mansion with secret underground, parents killed young, grew up angry, friendly and helpful butler type floating around.

Actually didn't think of that, but I think I did read something recently with Mendes saying he was a big fan of TDK and took a few inspirations from it. Now that I think of it, the sequence in Shanghai did remind me alot of the sequence in Hong Kong in TDK in terms of look and atmosphere.

Sad Professor

Bond's reaction to car being blown up was pretty ridiculous alright, especially considering he barely batted an eyelid over Severine's death. It's amazing how easily this franchise slips into self-parody. I'd be very interested to read an earlier draft of the script, before Logan got involved, because the cheesiness of certain scenes reminded me a lot of Star Trek Nemesis which he also wrote.