Lockpicking laws in Ireland

BogMonkey

Years ago, before I decided to go to college, I was thinking about becoming a locksmith so I downloaded the course material for some community colleges locksmithing course and started learning. A whole chapter of the course was dedicated to methods of bypassing locks and I found the lockpicking part pretty interesting so I bought a couple of locks and started making my own lock picks out of hacksaw blades (I glued a template to them and grinded them down with a bench grinder) and it became a little hobby of mine. I didn't get very good at lock picking but I got pretty skilled at making picks. I wanna start making lock picks again and maybe sell them over the internet since it'd gimme a bit of income while I'm in college but I looked into it and it seems Ireland has a crazy law concerning lock picks. I read that over here you can be charged with attempt to commit burglary just for possessing lock picks.

Does that law only apply if you are out on the street carrying lock picks or can you be charged just for having picks at home? In other words would I be asking for trouble if I started making picks and selling them online? I think the law is pretty stupid because any locksmith knows that people only use lock picks to break into houses in James Bond films. In real life it takes ages to pick a lock and theres no guarantee at all that you'll actually be able to pick a particular lock. This is why burglars usually opt for a quicker approach such as a brick through the window. If they are insistent on going through the lock then they'll just drill through the pins or use a bump key. Personally if I wanted to burglarise a house I'd just use the tried and true brick through the window approach.

MagicSean

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/act/pub/0050/sec0015.html#sec15

There's the law you were looking for. It's not an outright ban.

syklops

BogMonkey wrote: »

Years ago, before I decided to go to college, I was thinking about becoming a locksmith so I downloaded the course material for some community colleges locksmithing course and started learning. A whole chapter of the course was dedicated to methods of bypassing locks and I found the lockpicking part pretty interesting so I bought a couple of locks and started making my own lock picks out of hacksaw blades (I glued a template to them and grinded them down with a bench grinder) and it became a little hobby of mine. I didn't get very good at lock picking but I got pretty skilled at making picks. I wanna start making lock picks again and maybe sell them over the internet since it'd gimme a bit of income while I'm in college but I looked into it and it seems Ireland has a crazy law concerning lock picks. I read that over here you can be charged with attempt to commit burglary just for possessing lock picks.

Does that law only apply if you are out on the street carrying lock picks or can you be charged just for having picks at home? In other words would I be asking for trouble if I started making picks and selling them online?

AFAIK, you have to be a licenced lock smith to own picks, but I really doubt you would be arrested for having them on you. Id recommend joining a lock sport group. They could give you more advice, on the legalities, plus it is a pretty good defence.

My own picking skills are pretty poor, due in part to my wobbly wrists, but I do have some success now and again. I have a small cheap set of picks built into a credit card I bought off deal extreme. The picks are ok, but I find the tension wrench unsatisfactory. Good call on the hack saw blades though!

MagicSean

syklops wrote: »

AFAIK, you have to be a licenced lock smith to own picks, but I really doubt you would be arrested for having them on you. Id recommend joining a lock sport group. They could give you more advice, on the legalities, plus it is a pretty good defence.

My own picking skills are pretty poor, due in part to my wobbly wrists, but I do have some success now and again. I have a small cheap set of picks built into a credit card I bought off deal extreme. The picks are ok, but I find the tension wrench unsatisfactory. Good call on the hack saw blades though!

You would be quite screwed if that was ever discovered on you.

BogMonkey

syklops wrote: »

Id recommend joining a lock sport group. They could give you more advice, on the legalities, plus it is a pretty good defence.

Are you a member of any yourself? I'll definitely join one if there are any in Dublin (which there most likely are).

syklops wrote: »

My own picking skills are pretty poor, due in part to my wobbly wrists, but I do have some success now and again. I have a small cheap set of picks built into a credit card I bought off deal extreme. The picks are ok, but I find the tension wrench unsatisfactory. Good call on the hack saw blades though!

The ultimate way to learn is to get a cutaway lock. Its a lock where the side of it is grinded down just enough to allow you to see the pins but not enough to allow the pins to escape from the holes. That way you can see whats going on so you know when you've got a pin locked. Real useful if you wanna practice with those special anti picking pins cuz some of those are made to trick you into thinking you have them locked above the barrel when in reality you don't. I haven't tried making one but I'd say they're not that difficult.

I highly recommend you try making your own picks. Its great fun. Just find some pick templates on the internet, print them out then glue them to hacksaw blades. Obviously some types of picks are harder than others to make. Rakes can be fairly tricky. Diamond picks are dead easy. All you really need is a bench grinder to craft them and some fine sand paper to smooth them down afterwards. A dremel tool is handy but not necessary, I didn't have one. There are lots of things you can do afterwards to make the picks better. For example you can use heat shrink to make proper handles for them. As for torque wrenches, you can make decent ones out of windshield wipers. Theres a flexible metal pieces inside the plastic which can be bent into shape easily with pliers.

syklops

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

You would be quite screwed if that was ever discovered on you.

Nothing is a foregone conclusion, even in Ireland. Here in the US, picks are only illegal if they are coupled with felonious intent. So I wouldnt like to be caught with them while wearing black gloves and carrying a length of rope.

I wouldnt carry them in Ireland. Instead as Bog monkey suggested I would make some of my own if the need ever arose. A small flat screwdriver and a hairpin work quite well.

Either way, I am a security analyst and researcher and testing physical weaknesses in locks is as much in my remit as making sure IDS rules are up to date. Owning picks should be the same as owning a port scanner. It should only be illegal if i use it against someone else's property without their permission.

@Bog Monkey, no im not in a lock sport group myself. I dont think there is any near me. Perhaps Ill set one up. Its becoming quite popular.

Contra Proferentem

I'm going to wade in here and say that there's no lawful purpose for this equipment to be in the possession of anyone other than a locksmith.

Obviously you'd have to explain why you were in possession of such equipment if stopped and search by members of AGS, and it would certainly attract suspicion and whether they consider your reasons credible or not is the difference between ending up in Court and walking away.

BogMonkey

Contra Proferentem wrote: »

I'm going to wade in here and say that there's no lawful purpose for this equipment to be in the possession of anyone other than a locksmith.

On the street, I can think of a few legitimate reasons why one might have lock picks on them. They might have just purchased them and are making their way home from the shop. They might be on their way to or from a lock picking convention. They might just be on their way to a friends house (with the intention of showing or giving the friend the picks, not burglarising their house lol). By legitimate reason, I mean an intention other than bypassing a lock that they don't own. I don't know whether any of these reasons are legitimate with respect to Irish laws though.

Contra Proferentem wrote: »

Obviously you'd have to explain why you were in possession of such equipment if stopped and search by members of AGS, and it would certainly attract suspicion and whether they consider your reasons credible or not is the difference between ending up in Court and walking away.

My ability to speak is nowhere near as good as my ability to type so I wouldn't be able to explain myself very well at all. Some people have such good verbal communication skills, they could explain why they are carrying a blood stained machete that they just used to murder someone and walk away. If I was questioned on a construction site about why I was holding a hammer I'd probably get handcuffed and thrown in the back of a Garda car lol.

MagicSean wrote: »

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/act/pub/0050/sec0015.html#sec15

There's the law you were looking for. It's not an outright ban.

I just read that law and it is pretty ridiculous. Can anyone prove that they did not have the intention of using a mobile phone to break a window in order to gain entry to a property? Can anyone prove that they didn't intend to use their shoe to break into a car? So in Ireland you're not innocent until proven guilty, you're innocent unless a Gard or judge suspects that you intended to commit a crime. Well I suppose I can forget about making lock picks then.

MagicSean

Leave out the drama. There are plenty of valid reasons to have a mobile phone other than for burglary. Shoes are a necessity for everyday life. The same cannot be said for concealed lock picks.

chem

Have always been interested in this as a hobby myself. If anyone knows of a club could you PM me. I remember working on a building site, years ago. All the doors to flats were locked, and you had to get the key to each flat you were working on, from the foreman. This ment a long walk to the site office and back again. Waste alot of time. We noticed some of the other trades men opening the doors, with some plastic slips cut from a lid off a grout bucket. We couldnt believe how easy it was to use.

So sadly in this country, you are guilty for just been in possession of a lock picking set, same as you are guilty of an offence if you have a metal detector in your home!! What a country we live in.

The problem is, if you went to local station, explained you wanted to pick locks as a hobby, if you get permission or not, the next house to be broken into without force, you will be the suspect :rolleyes:

Korgman

Hi I have a question.
I have recently got interested in lockpicking as a hobby. I was on Amazon and it was willing to ship lockpicks around the UK. If i tried to ship some to Ireland would i land in any trouble?

Pat Mustard

Have a look at this thread on possession of lock picks and possible defences.

syklops

Korgman wrote: »

Hi I have a question.
I have recently got interested in lockpicking as a hobby. I was on Amazon and it was willing to ship lockpicks around the UK. If i tried to ship some to Ireland would i land in any trouble?

The law states :

"(1A) A person who, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, is in possession of any article made or adapted for use in the course of, or in connection with, the commission of an offence referred to in paragraphs (a) to (d) of subsection (1) is guilty of an offence."

My read of that is possession of picks is only illegal if you have them in your possession during the course of or during the commission of an offence. If they are for your own use, or for use on your own locks, then I can't see it being a problem.

However, from a lock-sporting point of view, I would recommend learning how the most common locks work, and then building your own tools. On another thread someone suggested a hack saw blade to use as a tension wrench. I personally like to use the scissors on my Leatherman as a tension wrench. A hairclip or safety pin can also be used or fashioned into a rake. There was an article in 2600 some years back on impromptu DIY picks. Apparently credit cards are quite popular as a building material.

Pat Mustard

The whole of the law, as amended, is below.

As you will see, there are two separate offences. One offence is in section 1 and the other offence is in section 1A.

The offence under section 1A is the possession of the article without lawful authority or reasonable excuse. You will see the potential defence to that, set out in section 2A.

People can be charged with an offence for just having lockpicks in their possession, whether or not any other offence has been committed.

S.15 Possession of certain articles

(1) A person who is, when not at his or her place of residence, in possession of any article with the intention that it be used in the course of or in connection with—
(a) theft or burglary,
(aa) robbery,
(b) an offence under section 6 or 7,
(c) an offence under section 17 (blackmail, extortion, demanding money with menaces) of the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act, 1994, or
(d) an offence under section 112 (taking a vehicle without lawful authority) of the Road Traffic Act, 1961,
is guilty of an offence.

(1A) A person who, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, is in possession of any article made or adapted for use in the course of, or in connection with, the commission of an offence referred to in paragraphs (a) to (d) of subsection (1) is guilty of an offence.

(2) It is a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1) to prove that at the time of the alleged offence the article concerned was not in his or her possession for a purpose specified in that subsection.

(2A) It is a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1A) to prove that the article concerned was not made or adapted for use in the course of or in connection with the commission of an offence referred to in paragraphs (a) to (d) of subsection (1).

(3) Where a person is convicted of an offence under this section, the court may order that any article for the possession of which he or she was so convicted shall be forfeited and either destroyed or disposed of in such manner as the court may determine.

(4) An order under subsection (3) shall not take effect until the ordinary time for instituting an appeal against the conviction or order concerned has expired or, where such an appeal is instituted, until it or any further appeal is finally decided or abandoned or the ordinary time for instituting any further appeal has expired.

(5) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable on conviction on indictment to a fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5 years or both.

syklops

Thats not my take of it but again Im not a legal professional.

As you will see, there are two separate offences. One offence is in section 1 and the other offence is in section 1A.

The offence under section 1A is the possession of the article without lawful authority or reasonable excuse. You will see the potential defence to that, set out in section 2A.

People can be charged with an offence for just having lockpicks in their possession, whether or not any other offence has been committed.

No, you left out the vital part of the sentence:

(1A) A person who, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, is in possession of any article made or adapted for use in the course of, or in connection with, the commission of an offence referred to in paragraphs (a) to (d) of subsection (1) is guilty of an offence.

My take on that is they are illegal if carried during the commission of an offence. The offences being, burglary, car theft, blackmail, extortion, etc. No where does it say carrying them is an offence.

People can be charged with an offence for just having lockpicks in their possession, whether or not any other offence has been committed.

Where does it say that?

Pat Mustard

syklops wrote: »

Thats not my take of it but again Im not a legal professional.

No, you left out the vital part of the sentence:

My take on that is they are illegal if carried during the commission of an offence. The offences being, burglary, car theft, blackmail, extortion, etc. No where does it say carrying them is an offence.

Where does it say that?

(1A) A person who, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, is in possession of any article made or adapted for use in the course of, or in connection with, the commission of an offence referred to in paragraphs (a) to (d) of subsection (1) is guilty of an offence.

I didn't leave out the vital part of the sentence. I left out the part of the sentence that you have confused for the vital part of the sentence.

The section is not very well drafted in my view, but it is possible to make sense of it by breaking it down into its elements:

1. A person who
2. without lawful authority or reasonable excuse
3. is in possession of any article
4. made or adapted for use in the course of, or in connection with, the commission of an offence referred to in paragraphs (a) to (d) of subsection (1) is guilty of an offence.

So, if someone is in possession of an article, and if that article is made or adapted for use in the course of, or in connection with, the commission of one of the listed offences, and if there no lawful authority or reasonable excuse, then they are guilty of an offence.

syklops

So, if someone is in possession of an article, and if that article is made or adapted for use in the course of, or in connection with, the commission of one of the listed offences, and if there no lawful authority or reasonable excuse, then they are guilty of an offence.

Well thats my point. if the article is made or adapted for use in the course of an offence then possession of the article itself is an offence. Thats fair enough. But any pick I made was not made during the commission of an offence, nor was it made or procured in connection with the commission of an offence. Again, there is no intent.

TherapyBoy

I think it means if it could be used to commit an offense, and you don't have a reasonable excuse or clearance from the Garda, then you're guilty =]
They don't care that you're not hitting a nail with the hammer, the fact you have the hammer on you is the problem.

Pat Mustard

syklops wrote: »

Well thats my point. if the article is made or adapted for use in the course of an offence then possession of the article itself is an offence. Thats fair enough. But any pick I made was not made during the commission of an offence, nor was it made or procured in connection with the commission of an offence. Again, there is no intent.

(1A) A person who, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, is in possession of any article made or adapted for use in the course of, or in connection with, the commission of an offence referred to in paragraphs (a) to (d) of subsection (1) is guilty of an offence.

You are reading it incorrectly.

It does not say that if any pick you made (or had, or have) was made during the commission of an offence, then you are guilty of an offence.

It says that the article must have been:
made or adapted
for use in the course of or in connection with
the commission of an offence...

Therefore, if you have lockpicks, and if the lockpicks are made or adapted for use in connection with one of the offences listed above, you are guilty of an offence.

You mention intention to commit the listed offences. However, look at the wording of the legislation. Intention is not part of the offence under section 1A. This intention is only mentioned in relation to the offence under section 1.

syklops

Therefore, if you have lockpicks, and if the lockpicks are made or adapted for use in connection with one of the offences listed above, you are guilty of an offence.

Ok, but any I make or have made are for the use of opening my own locks or locks I have been given permission to open. They are not for use during the commission of any of the listed offences.

syklops

TherapyBoy wrote: »

I think it means if it could be used to commit an offense, and you don't have a reasonable excuse or clearance from the Garda, then you're guilty =]
They don't care that you're not hitting a nail with the hammer, the fact you have the hammer on you is the problem.

So hammers are now forbidden too?

SB2013

syklops wrote: »

So hammers are now forbidden too?

Well you can't just carry one around for no reason if thats what you mean.

TherapyBoy

If you can convince the Gardai that you weren't using it to hit any nails you're in the clear.

Pat Mustard

syklops wrote: »

Ok, but any I make or have made are for the use of opening my own locks or locks I have been given permission to open. They are not for use during the commission of any of the listed offences.

If you were charged with possession of lockpicks, you would have to convince a judge of that, which might be easier said than done.

It would be simpler if you could establish a reasonable excuse. In relation to charges of knife possession, defendants have previously successfully argued that they had the knife in relation to a hobby or pastime, such as fishing.

syklops

The Mustard wrote: »

If you were charged with possession of lockpicks, you would have to convince a judge of that, which might be easier said than done.

It would be simpler if you could establish a reasonable excuse. In relation to charges of knife possession, defendants have previously successfully argued that they had the knife in relation to a hobby or pastime, such as fishing.

I still don't understand how i can be charged with posession of lock picks when I have not committed any other offences. Nor am I conspiring to carry out any offences, nor were the items thems selves obtained or made during the commission of an offence. Thats the bit thats missing for me.

I do security research and penetration testing. In the course of my work I need to be able to know how locks work and show their weaknesses to clients and be able to advise more secure alternatives.

I have a raspberry pi on my desk. Its a very small computer and by adding some software I am turning it into a drop box for use in Pen Tests. A drop box is a thing you plug into their network which you then use to access their system remotely. Just like my lock picks, when I employ the use of it, it is on one of my networks or on a network I have permission to use it on. Are you still saying I could be charged for just having it about my person?

SB2013 wrote: »

Well you can't just carry one around for no reason if thats what you mean.

And since when were you not allowed to carry a hammer around?

Pat Mustard

syklops wrote: »

I still don't understand how i can be charged with posession of lock picks when I have not committed any other offences. Nor am I conspiring to carry out any offences, nor were the items thems selves obtained or made during the commission of an offence. Thats the bit thats missing for me.

The offence is possession of the article. Look at the legislation. The fact that you have not committed other offences does not enter into it.

If you ask me, the law goes too far here.

syklops wrote: »

I do security research and penetration testing. In the course of my work I need to be able to know how locks work and show their weaknesses to clients and be able to advise more secure alternatives.

Now we're talking. If you use lockpicks in the course of your work, then the possibility is open to you to argue that you had a reasonable excuse. If you had a reasonable excuse, then no offence was committed, by definition.

syklops wrote: »

I have a raspberry pi on my desk. Its a very small computer and by adding some software I am turning it into a drop box for use in Pen Tests. A drop box is a thing you plug into their network which you then use to access their system remotely. Just like my lock picks, when I employ the use of it, it is on one of my networks or on a network I have permission to use it on. Are you still saying I could be charged for just having it about my person?

I'm not saying that at all. A raspberry pi is just a computer.

First, remote access has an entirely legitimate everyday use for some people.

Secondly, I would imagine that the State would have a hard time proving that your raspberry pi was made or adapted for use in the course of, or in connection with, the commission of an offence... I'm not saying that this cannot be done, btw. I just don't think it's very likely.

Thirdly, as you use this equipment for work, you would argue reasonable excuse if charged.

Who needs all this stuff anyway, James Bond!?

syklops

The offence is possession of the article. Look at the legislation. The fact that you have not committed other offences does not enter into it.

I have looked at the legislation. I have read it and re-read it and mulled it over in my head and then re-read again. I still don't see where it says that its an offence to carry picks, but I am not getting into it again.

Secondly, I would imagine that the State would have a hard time proving that your raspberry pi was made or adapted for use in the course of, or in connection with, the commission of an offence

Well I dont see how the state could prove the same of a hack saw blade and a safety pin. Thats my problem.

Thirdly, as you use this equipment for work, you would argue reasonable excuse if charged.

That is what I would do, but the original question was posed by someone who does not do this sort of thing professionally, but has an interest in it. I started off with the MIT guide to lock picking and some bits of metal trying to open my own locks in my bedroom. Hence my dismay at discovering I could be charged for ownership of said bits of metal. Something that still baffles me.

Who needs all this stuff anyway, James Bond!?

I am sure the industrial espionage version of James Bond uses all of these tools and more to access a companys assets. If I am to demonstrate to an organisation that they are at risk then I have to use similar tactics and similar methods.

SB2013

syklops wrote: »

And since when were you not allowed to carry a hammer around?

Since the Firearms and Offensive weapons Act was passed in 1990 i suppose

syklops

SB2013 wrote: »

Since the Firearms and Offensive weapons Act was passed in 1990 i suppose

I've read the act and again cannot see where it is illegal to carry a hammer around with me, but that is a whole new thread.

SB2013

syklops wrote: »

I've read the act and again cannot see where it is illegal to carry a hammer around with me, but that is a whole new thread.

Legislation doesn't cite specific examples. For example there is no law that says it's specifically illegal to take a jersey from a shop without paying for it but it still falls under the Theft Act.

The relevent sections for carrying a hammer is 9(5) and (6)

Pat Mustard

SB2013 wrote: »

Legislation doesn't cite specific examples. For example there is no law that says it's specifically illegal to take a jersey from a shop without paying for it but it still falls under the Theft Act.

The relevent sections for carrying a hammer is 9(5) and (6)

Ah now, that's an entirely different kettle of fish, because it also requires intention to cause injury or to intimidate or incapacitate, etc.

Just having a hammer in your possession is not an offence.

SB2013

The Mustard wrote: »

Ah now, that's an entirely different kettle of fish, because it also requires intention to cause injury or to intimidate or incapacitate, etc.

Just having a hammer in your possession is not an offence.

(6) In a prosecution for an offence under subsection (5), it shall not be necessary for the prosecution to allege or prove that the intent to cause injury, incapacitate or intimidate was intent to cause injury to, incapacitate or intimidate a particular person; and if, having regard to all the circumstances (including the type of the article alleged to have been intended to cause injury, incapacitate or intimidate, the time of the day or night, and the place), the court (or the jury as the case may be) thinks it reasonable to do so, it may regard possession of the article as sufficient evidence of intent in the absence of any adequate explanation by the accused.

Pat Mustard

SB2013 wrote: »

(6) In a prosecution for an offence under subsection (5), it shall not be necessary for the prosecution to allege or prove that the intent to cause injury, incapacitate or intimidate was intent to cause injury to, incapacitate or intimidate a particular person; and if, having regard to all the circumstances (including the type of the article alleged to have been intended to cause injury, incapacitate or intimidate, the time of the day or night, and the place), the court (or the jury as the case may be) thinks it reasonable to do so, it may regard possession of the article as sufficient evidence of intent in the absence of any adequate explanation by the accused.

Ok, I take your point, but it still doesn't make the simple possession of a hammer illegal.

Intention to cause injury, incapacitate or intimidate is still part of the offence, even if the burden of proof shifts to the defence.

That's not the case with the possession offence under S.15(1A) of the Theft Act.

TherapyBoy

*note to self: keep mouth shut about hammer & nail analogies in future*

Korgman

So is it definitely, absolutely illegal to ship some picks from amazon to Ireland.
I have read the laws about lockpicks and it is still unclear if they are allowed or completely banned. Anyone have any comments on shipping them to Ireland?

Pat Mustard

Korgman wrote: »

So is it definitely, absolutely illegal to ship some picks from amazon to Ireland.
I have read the laws about lockpicks and it is still unclear if they are allowed or completely banned. Anyone have any comments on shipping them to Ireland?

I haven't looked very hard to see if the importation of the item is an offence, but, subject to correction, I have found no law which outlaws the importation of lockpicks, as such.

However, I would say that as soon as lockpicks come into a person's possession, that person commits an offence under S.15.(1A) of the Theft Act. This assumes that none of the previously-discussed defences apply.

syklops

The Mustard wrote: »

However, I would say that as soon as lockpicks come into a person's possession, that person commits an offence under S.15.(1A) of the Theft Act. This assumes that none of the previously-discussed defences apply.

Well I disagree, but at this stage we should just agree to disagree.

So is it definitely, absolutely illegal to ship some picks from amazon to Ireland.
I have read the laws about lockpicks and it is still unclear if they are allowed or completely banned. Anyone have any comments on shipping them to Ireland?

The fact is its as clear as mud. I'd consult a lawyer if you feel strongly about it.

Or if you can't afford that, then learn how to pick using home made picks. "No your honour, that is not a tension wrench, its simply a bent hack saw blade"

Pat Mustard

syklops wrote: »

Well I disagree, but at this stage we should just agree to disagree.

I see that you disagree and I while would accept that the law appears to be unfair insofar as simple possession of lockpicks is an offence of itself, without intention to commit burglary etc, I can't understand how you have arrived at your interpretation of S.15(1A).

But, as you say, we can agree to disagree.

ResearchWill

The Mustard wrote: »

I see that you disagree and I while would accept that the law appears to be unfair insofar as simple possession of lockpicks is an offence of itself, without intention to commit burglary etc, I can't understand how you have arrived at your interpretation of S.15(1A).

But, as you say, we can agree to disagree.

My reading if someone ordered these items and same are delivered to his home he cannot commit an offence. I have not seen any legislation baning the buying or importation.

Possession of certain articles.

15.—(1) A person who is, when not at his or her place of residence, in possession of any article with the intention that it be used in the course of or in connection with—

While 15 (1) (A) does say

“(1A) A person who, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, is in possession of any article made or adapted for use in the course of, or in connection with, the commission of an offence referred to in paragraphs (a) to (d) of subsection (1) is guilty of an offence.”,

These two sections seem to contradict each other.

Pat Mustard

ResearchWill wrote: »

I have not seen any legislation banking the buying or importation.

I tend to agree with you on this point.

ResearchWill wrote: »

Possession of certain articles.

15.—(1) A person who is, when not at his or her place of residence, in possession of any article with the intention that it be used in the course of or in connection with—

Yes, but there are two offences under S.15. You looked at S.15(1), but the other offence is under S.15(1A):

(1A) A person who, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, is in possession of any article made or adapted for use in the course of, or in connection with, the commission of an offence referred to in paragraphs (a) to (d) of subsection (1) is guilty of an offence.

I posted a consolidated section 15 here.


EDIT: I see you have amended your post to refer to S.15(1A). I don't see a contradiction as such, as they appear to be two separate offences.

ResearchWill

The Mustard wrote: »

I tend to agree with you on this point.



Yes, but there are two offences under S.15. You looked at S.15(1), but the other offence is under S.15(1A):


I posted a consolidated section 15 here.


EDIT: I see you have amended your post to refer to S.15(1A). I don't see a contradiction as such, as they appear to be two separate offences.

I was in middle of editing post, my issue is by amending it as they have its not clear. If they wanted to make it an offence in the home then they really should have replaced 15 (1) not added 15 (1) (A) at best it very bad drafting.

The offence in 1 is being "in possession of any article" outside the home while 1(A) is "is in possession of any article made or adapted." Also 15 (1) (A) removes the intention.

Looking at the two sections

(1) A person who is, when not at his or her place of residence, in possession of any article with the intention that it be used in the course of or in connection with

(1A) A person who, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, is in possession of any article made or adapted for use in the course of, or in connection with, the commission of an offence referred to in paragraphs (a) to (d) of subsection (1) is guilty of an offence.

Why I am confused is if they intended to expand the scope why not just replace 15 (1) with what is now 15 (1A)

Pat Mustard

ResearchWill wrote: »

I was in middle of editing post, my issue is by amending it as they have its not clear. If they wanted to make it an offence in the home then they really should have replaced 15 (1) not added 15 (1) (A) at best it very bad drafting.

Fair enough.

I agree, the drafting is poor.

However, the s.15(1A) amendment has created a slightly ridiculous situation where simple possession of lockpicks can be an offence, even when in one's own home.

S.15(2A) contains a defence to the offence created by S.15.(1A). I was unable to find any Irish caselaw on it. Do you know of any relevant English caselaw, out of interest?

Profiler

"simple possession of lockpicks can be an offence even when in one's own home"

News to me!

ResearchWill

The Mustard wrote: »

Fair enough.

I agree, the drafting is poor.

However, the s.15(1A) amendment has created a slightly ridiculous situation where simple possession of lockpicks can be an offence, even when in one's own home.

S.15(2A) contains a defence to the offence created by S.15.(1A). I was unable to find any Irish caselaw on it. Do you know of any relevant English caselaw, out of interest?

I'm not sure of case law on point in either jurisdiction I'm not sure if UK statutory law is the same in this area.

Tar.Aldarion

I think you are allowed lock picks, as I've attended a lock picking group who have no trouble with the law. It's held every two weeks in Dublin. Which is also a very good reason to have them on your person.

Pat Mustard

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

I think you are allowed lock picks, as I've attended a lock picking group who have no trouble with the law. It's held every two weeks in Dublin. Which is also a very good reason to have them on your person.

You are talking about reasonable excuse, which is a defence specified in the legislation. Presumably, you could argue that you had the lock picks for a recreational purpose, insofar as you are a member of a lock picking club.

Not everybody is going to fall into your category, so you may be something of an exception in that regard.

Tar.Aldarion

Seeing as it is public, everybody is a member. So anybody could say it? Or could you just say you have them for recreational activities anyway without anything got to do with such a club? There is a newspaper going to be at it tomorrow, so I'm sure we will see a piece soon.

ResearchWill

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Seeing as it is public, everybody is a member. So anybody could say it? Or could you just say you have them for recreational activities anyway without anything got to do with such a club? There is a newspaper going to be at it tomorrow, so I'm sure we will see a piece soon.

The question is will a jury of 12 people accept the excuse. If cought with the stuff, the state have proved 1 you have them and then raised the presumption that the person has them for no good purpose, the accused then can raise a defence the standard of proof on that defence is the civil standard if the Jury or judge accept on the balance that the person has a legit defence then thats ok.

I for one would not like trying to run the defence of Im part of a lockpicking club, it really would depend on all the facts and the jury or judge.

Pat Mustard

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Seeing as it is public, everybody is a member. So anybody could say it? Or could you just say you have them for recreational activities anyway without anything got to do with such a club? There is a newspaper going to be at it tomorrow, so I'm sure we will see a piece soon.

It's one thing to simply say that you are a member of a club or to simply say that you have lockpicks for a recreational purpose.

It can be another thing to satisfy a judge with such an argument.

I can't see a judge accepting an argument that the general public are all members of this club. It's not a plausible argument.

Tar.Aldarion

ResearchWill wrote: »

The question is will a jury of 12 people accept the excuse. If cought with the stuff, the state have proved 1 you have them and then raised the presumption that the person has them for no good purpose, the accused then can raise a defence the standard of proof on that defence is the civil standard if the Jury or judge accept on the balance that the person has a legit defence then thats ok.

I for one would not like trying to run the defence of Im part of a lockpicking club, it really would depend on all the facts and the jury or judge.

Interestingly it's what people in teh club say when found, the garda just say ok or some such, it's not ever been an issue afaik.

What reason would you use?
Also you know how with private clampers, you can remove them from your car if you don't damage them. Lock pics a re a simple, cheap, easy way to do this. I wouldn't have anohter way to remove them. How is that for a defence :pac:

The Mustard wrote: »

It's one thing to simply say that you are a member of a club or to simply say that you have lockpicks for a recreational purpose.

It can be another thing to satisfy a judge with such an argument.

I can't see a judge accepting an argument that the general public are all members of this club. It's not a plausible argument.

What I mean is, the club has a large turnover of people who have gone, if people knew about it, couldn't they just say they had gone to that? They even tell you where to get picks and give coupon codes. Also, if you jsut liked doing it at home yourself you could have them, what would a reasonable excuse be in your eyes?

Pat Mustard

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Interestingly it's what people in teh club say when found, the garda just say ok or some such, it's not ever been an issue afaik.

What reason would you use?
Also you know how with private clampers, you can remove them from your car if you don't damage them. Lock pics a re a simple, cheap, easy way to do this. I wouldn't have anohter way to remove them. How is that for a defence :pac:


What I mean is, the club has a large turnover of people who have gone, if people knew about it, couldn't they just say they had gone to that? They even tell you where to get picks and give coupon codes. Also, if you jsut liked doing it at home yourself you could have them, what would a reasonable excuse be in your eyes?

I've heard of lock picking clubs. It sounds like they are a legitimate minority interest. If you are a member of such a group or if you can show that you have an interest in this as a hobby, then a defence of lawful excuse on the basis of recreational interest would be arguable, in my opinion. The closest comparison that I could make would be that the defence of reasonable excuse has been used successfully in arguing that possession of a knife was for fishing, as a recreational activity.

That said, you'd have to satisfy a judge of the fact, or a jury in the Circuit Court. You'd want to be pretty convincing, otherwise wideboys would be at this sort of craic every day of the week.