BogMonkey wrote: » Years ago, before I decided to go to college, I was thinking about becoming a locksmith so I downloaded the course material for some community colleges locksmithing course and started learning. A whole chapter of the course was dedicated to methods of bypassing locks and I found the lockpicking part pretty interesting so I bought a couple of locks and started making my own lock picks out of hacksaw blades (I glued a template to them and grinded them down with a bench grinder) and it became a little hobby of mine. I didn't get very good at lock picking but I got pretty skilled at making picks. I wanna start making lock picks again and maybe sell them over the internet since it'd gimme a bit of income while I'm in college but I looked into it and it seems Ireland has a crazy law concerning lock picks. I read that over here you can be charged with attempt to commit burglary just for possessing lock picks. Does that law only apply if you are out on the street carrying lock picks or can you be charged just for having picks at home? In other words would I be asking for trouble if I started making picks and selling them online?
syklops wrote: » AFAIK, you have to be a licenced lock smith to own picks, but I really doubt you would be arrested for having them on you. Id recommend joining a lock sport group. They could give you more advice, on the legalities, plus it is a pretty good defence. My own picking skills are pretty poor, due in part to my wobbly wrists, but I do have some success now and again. I have a small cheap set of picks built into a credit card I bought off deal extreme. The picks are ok, but I find the tension wrench unsatisfactory. Good call on the hack saw blades though!
syklops wrote: » Id recommend joining a lock sport group. They could give you more advice, on the legalities, plus it is a pretty good defence.
syklops wrote: » My own picking skills are pretty poor, due in part to my wobbly wrists, but I do have some success now and again. I have a small cheap set of picks built into a credit card I bought off deal extreme. The picks are ok, but I find the tension wrench unsatisfactory. Good call on the hack saw blades though!
Seanbeag1 wrote: » You would be quite screwed if that was ever discovered on you.
Contra Proferentem wrote: » I'm going to wade in here and say that there's no lawful purpose for this equipment to be in the possession of anyone other than a locksmith.
Contra Proferentem wrote: » Obviously you'd have to explain why you were in possession of such equipment if stopped and search by members of AGS, and it would certainly attract suspicion and whether they consider your reasons credible or not is the difference between ending up in Court and walking away.
MagicSean wrote: » http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/act/pub/0050/sec0015.html#sec15 There's the law you were looking for. It's not an outright ban.
Korgman wrote: » Hi I have a question. I have recently got interested in lockpicking as a hobby. I was on Amazon and it was willing to ship lockpicks around the UK. If i tried to ship some to Ireland would i land in any trouble?
S.15 Possession of certain articles (1) A person who is, when not at his or her place of residence, in possession of any article with the intention that it be used in the course of or in connection with— (a) theft or burglary, (aa) robbery, (b) an offence under section 6 or 7, (c) an offence under section 17 (blackmail, extortion, demanding money with menaces) of the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act, 1994, or (d) an offence under section 112 (taking a vehicle without lawful authority) of the Road Traffic Act, 1961, is guilty of an offence. (1A) A person who, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, is in possession of any article made or adapted for use in the course of, or in connection with, the commission of an offence referred to in paragraphs (a) to (d) of subsection (1) is guilty of an offence. (2) It is a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1) to prove that at the time of the alleged offence the article concerned was not in his or her possession for a purpose specified in that subsection. (2A) It is a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1A) to prove that the article concerned was not made or adapted for use in the course of or in connection with the commission of an offence referred to in paragraphs (a) to (d) of subsection (1). (3) Where a person is convicted of an offence under this section, the court may order that any article for the possession of which he or she was so convicted shall be forfeited and either destroyed or disposed of in such manner as the court may determine. (4) An order under subsection (3) shall not take effect until the ordinary time for instituting an appeal against the conviction or order concerned has expired or, where such an appeal is instituted, until it or any further appeal is finally decided or abandoned or the ordinary time for instituting any further appeal has expired. (5) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable on conviction on indictment to a fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5 years or both.
As you will see, there are two separate offences. One offence is in section 1 and the other offence is in section 1A. The offence under section 1A is the possession of the article without lawful authority or reasonable excuse. You will see the potential defence to that, set out in section 2A. People can be charged with an offence for just having lockpicks in their possession, whether or not any other offence has been committed.
(1A) A person who, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, is in possession of any article made or adapted for use in the course of, or in connection with, the commission of an offence referred to in paragraphs (a) to (d) of subsection (1) is guilty of an offence.
People can be charged with an offence for just having lockpicks in their possession, whether or not any other offence has been committed.
syklops wrote: » Thats not my take of it but again Im not a legal professional. No, you left out the vital part of the sentence: My take on that is they are illegal if carried during the commission of an offence. The offences being, burglary, car theft, blackmail, extortion, etc. No where does it say carrying them is an offence. Where does it say that?
So, if someone is in possession of an article, and if that article is made or adapted for use in the course of, or in connection with, the commission of one of the listed offences, and if there no lawful authority or reasonable excuse, then they are guilty of an offence.
syklops wrote: » Well thats my point. if the article is made or adapted for use in the course of an offence then possession of the article itself is an offence. Thats fair enough. But any pick I made was not made during the commission of an offence, nor was it made or procured in connection with the commission of an offence. Again, there is no intent.
Therefore, if you have lockpicks, and if the lockpicks are made or adapted for use in connection with one of the offences listed above, you are guilty of an offence.
TherapyBoy wrote: » I think it means if it could be used to commit an offense, and you don't have a reasonable excuse or clearance from the Garda, then you're guilty =] They don't care that you're not hitting a nail with the hammer, the fact you have the hammer on you is the problem.
syklops wrote: » So hammers are now forbidden too?
syklops wrote: » Ok, but any I make or have made are for the use of opening my own locks or locks I have been given permission to open. They are not for use during the commission of any of the listed offences.
The Mustard wrote: » If you were charged with possession of lockpicks, you would have to convince a judge of that, which might be easier said than done. It would be simpler if you could establish a reasonable excuse. In relation to charges of knife possession, defendants have previously successfully argued that they had the knife in relation to a hobby or pastime, such as fishing.
SB2013 wrote: » Well you can't just carry one around for no reason if thats what you mean.
syklops wrote: » I still don't understand how i can be charged with posession of lock picks when I have not committed any other offences. Nor am I conspiring to carry out any offences, nor were the items thems selves obtained or made during the commission of an offence. Thats the bit thats missing for me.
syklops wrote: » I do security research and penetration testing. In the course of my work I need to be able to know how locks work and show their weaknesses to clients and be able to advise more secure alternatives.
syklops wrote: » I have a raspberry pi on my desk. Its a very small computer and by adding some software I am turning it into a drop box for use in Pen Tests. A drop box is a thing you plug into their network which you then use to access their system remotely. Just like my lock picks, when I employ the use of it, it is on one of my networks or on a network I have permission to use it on. Are you still saying I could be charged for just having it about my person?
The offence is possession of the article. Look at the legislation. The fact that you have not committed other offences does not enter into it.
Secondly, I would imagine that the State would have a hard time proving that your raspberry pi was made or adapted for use in the course of, or in connection with, the commission of an offence
Thirdly, as you use this equipment for work, you would argue reasonable excuse if charged.
Who needs all this stuff anyway, James Bond!?
syklops wrote: » And since when were you not allowed to carry a hammer around?
SB2013 wrote: » Since the Firearms and Offensive weapons Act was passed in 1990 i suppose
syklops wrote: » I've read the act and again cannot see where it is illegal to carry a hammer around with me, but that is a whole new thread.
SB2013 wrote: » Legislation doesn't cite specific examples. For example there is no law that says it's specifically illegal to take a jersey from a shop without paying for it but it still falls under the Theft Act. The relevent sections for carrying a hammer is 9(5) and (6)
