Former UVF leader Gusty Spence dies

Sunnyisland

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0925/spenceg.html


Former Ulster Volunteer Force leader Gusty Spence has died aged 78.
Spence was given a life sentence after the UVF murdered 18-year-old Catholic Peter Ward and wounded two other people as they left a pub on Malvern Street in Belfast in 1966.
He served 18 years.
He became heavily involved in politics and was a key figure in the Progressive Unionist Party alongside figures like the late David Ervine.
On 3 May he read out the statement by the UVF announcing that it would keep its weapons but put them beyond the reach of ordinary members.


My own opinion of the man is that he started out with the Gun earlier on in his life he then seen it as futile and got involved in politics at first while in long kesh talking to official Ira members,He also "groomed" David irvine and billy hutchinson, In 1977 he publicly condemned the use of violence for political gain, on the grounds that it was counter-productive. May he rest in peace.

SV

Delighted for him.

Penfailed

realies wrote: »

May he rest in peace.

Indeed.

tallaghtmick

Did he **** Iris too?

billybudd

To late to run for the presidency so.

Einhard

realies wrote: »

In 1977 he publicly condemned the use of violence for political gain, on the grounds that it was counter-productive.

So not because it was, ummm, morally wrong to murder people? Just counter-productive. Right.

May he rest in peace.

As with his victims.

Richard Hillman

I look forward to hearing Martin McGuinness's Presidential supporters compare this man to Nelson Mandela as well.

steddyeddy

I welcome any politician who abandoned violence in place of reconcilliation and he was one of them. Although he was a bigot he moved away from more backward views later in life.

Einhard

steddyeddy wrote: »

I welcome any politician who abandoned violence in place of reconcilliation and he was one of them. Although he was a bigot he moved away from more backward views later in life.

I welcome anyone who didn't murder civilians in the pursuit of their cause.

Seriously, WTF is wrong with people? It's as if taking up, and then renouncing murder as a way of life, is somehow morally superior than never taking up the gun in the first place. If these guys get all this credit for deciding to stop murdering people, surely every other politician (every other person) should be exulted for never having stooped to murder in the first place?

"Vote for Michael D. He never murdered/sanctioned the murder of innocent civilians!"

Has a nice ring to it.

steddyeddy

Einhard wrote: »

I welcome anyone who didn't murder civilians in the pursuit of their cause.

Seriously, WTF is wrong with people? It's as if taking up, and then renouncing murder as a way of life, is somehow morally superior than never taking up the gun in the first place. If these guys get all this credit for deciding to stop murdering people, surely every other politician (every other person) should be exulted for never having stooped to murder in the first place?

Well murder is wrong Im not denying that I just mean Im glad he stopped rather than carry on. Its my way of saying he was the best of a bad bunch.

Einhard

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well murder is wrong Im not denying that I just mean Im glad he stopped rather than carry on. Its my way of saying he was the best of a bad bunch.

Well that's fair enough. It's just that many people see the renunciation of violence as some great virtue, and something to be celebrated. I'd rather celebrate those who didn't turn to murder. I welcome the fact that people have turned their back on the gun, but FFS, let's stop fawning over them because they belatedly located some sense of morality.

Mike 1972

Einhard wrote: »

Seriously, WTF is wrong with people? It's as if taking up, and then renouncing murder as a way of life, is somehow morally superior than never taking up the gun in the first place. If these guys get all this credit for deciding to stop murdering people, surely every other politician (every other person) should be exulted for never having stooped to murder in the first place?.

Yup apparently "I havent killed anyone" < "I havent killed anyone this week"

jimdeans

The violence and bigotry seen in some NI people is a result of their environment and upbringing. Any of us could have ended up as a rageing die-hard loyalist, given the right environment. I daresay some could have ended up murderers.

In many ways it's harder to go back on all of that and renounce it, then it is to be a middle class Dub who's just always grown up knowing that terrorism is wrong.

Fair play to him for embracing the political way over the violent way eventually. May he RIP.

stovelid

I'm glad that he played such a role in bringing the UVF to ceasefire in the same way I'm glad McGuinness and Adams did for the IRA. There was courage and conviction to do this but I'm not inclined to forget that Spence merely helped end a murder campaign he himself originally engineered; or that thousands of people in the North pursued their political beliefs without shooting dead, say, a couple of innocent catholic barmen like Spence did. And history unfortunately often does not valorize those people that quietly had the moral courage not to kill the innocent.

Phill Ewinn

RIH

Einhard

jimdeans wrote: »

The violence and bigotry seen in some NI people is a result of their environment and upbringing. Any of us could have ended up as a rageing die-hard loyalist, given the right environment. I daresay some could have ended up murderers.

And if they did end up murderers, then they'd deserve to be condemned.

I can only imagine the reaction were I to bring up the home environment of some notorious killer as some form of justification for his killings. I'd be laughed out of it. And yet, when it comes to the North, we get it every day. "I murdered innocent people because of the environment in which I was rasied...". Hmmm, is that you Gusty or John Wayne Gacy?

In many ways it's harder to go back on all of that and renounce it, then it is to be a middle class Dub who's just always grown up knowing that terrorism is wrong.

I don't think terrorism is always wrong. Most people don't see the world in such black and white terms. However, I do think that terrorism, when it deliberately targets innocent civilians is always wrong.

Fair play to him for embracing the political way over the violent way eventually. May he RIP.

Eventually being the operative word.

In another way- Fair play to him. He stopped murdering and sanctioning the murder of teenagers eventually. Hip hip...

Dudess

jimdeans wrote: »

The violence and bigotry seen in some NI people is a result of their environment and upbringing. Any of us could have ended up as a rageing die-hard loyalist, given the right environment. I daresay some could have ended up murderers.

Explanation, but not an excuse for murdering.

realies wrote: »

May he rest in peace.

May he RIP.

I rarely use this little bastard, but... :rolleyes:

Cop on. Have some respect for his victims. I'm sure they would be only chuffed to see someone writing "Rest in peace" re Gusty Spence - ditto for IRA victims when Adams/McGuinness die.

I echo others: good to see Spence and all the others, on both sides, change tack, but you don't just "forget about the past" when it comes to orchestrated murder.

It's great to be forgiving/progressive, but no need to be THAT forgiving/progressive...

stovelid

I'll be completely honest here too: the provos are hard enough to stomach but the valedictory nonsense that emenates from loyalism on occasions such as this - po-faced rhetoric about ending military campaigns as if they actually dared to face troops instead of largely confining themselves to butchering innocent people.

naldface

stovelid wrote: »

I'm glad that he played such a role in bringing the UVF to ceasefire in the same way I'm glad McGuinness and Adams did for the IRA. There was courage and conviction to do this but I'm not inclined to forget that Spence merely helped end a murder campaign he himself originally engineered; or that thousands of people in the North pursued their political beliefs without shooting dead, say, a couple of innocent catholic barmen like Spence did. And history unfortunately often does not valorize those people that quietly had the moral courage not to kill the innocent.

Oh you see, this is quite the learning experience. Its kind of like that omegle website. I think the users are randomly swapped out ever so often though

stovelid

naldface wrote: »

stovelid wrote: »

I'm glad that he played such a role in bringing the UVF to ceasefire in the same way I'm glad McGuinness and Adams did for the IRA. There was courage and conviction to do this but I'm not inclined to forget that Spence merely helped end a murder campaign he himself originally engineered; or that thousands of people in the North pursued their political beliefs without shooting dead, say, a couple of innocent catholic barmen like Spence did. And history unfortunately often does not valorize those people that quietly had the moral courage not to kill the innocent.

Oh you see, this is quite the learning experience. Its kind of like that omegle website. I think the users are randomly swapped out ever so often though

Typical horse**** response: heavy on the usual playground categorisation and emotional rhetoric but with zero substance.

naldface

stovelid wrote: »

Typical horse**** response: heavy on the usual playground categorisation and emotional rhetoric but with zero substance.

I hope not, Metal is the absolute worst type of music, I don't want everything on this world to be brutal.

KeithAFC

RIP.

biko

Oh, give my head peace

discus

KeithAFC wrote: »

RIP.

The mark of a tool. And I say that as a very west brit Dubliner and British Army recruit. I'll agree with some of what you say, but you're winding people up, or you're paying respects to an all out murderer.

Dudess

In fairness, AH's resident LVF murder squad supporter isn't the only one who said "RIP" - worse to read it from people who aren't him tbh...

KeithAFC wrote: »

RIP.

Yet you bang on about Sinn Féin being evil? Be consistent there dude. A murderer is a murderer is a murderer...

PK2008

Einhard wrote: »

I welcome anyone who didn't murder civilians in the pursuit of their cause.

Seriously, WTF is wrong with people? It's as if taking up, and then renouncing murder as a way of life, is somehow morally superior than never taking up the gun in the first place. If these guys get all this credit for deciding to stop murdering people, surely every other politician (every other person) should be exulted for never having stooped to murder in the first place?

"Vote for Michael D. He never murdered/sanctioned the murder of innocent civilians!"

Has a nice ring to it.

Hahaha, that reminds of this classic bit by Chris Rock about looking for credit for s**t you're just supposed to do....

Dudess

PK2008 wrote: »

Hahaha, that reminds of this classic bit by Chris Rock about looking for credit for s**t you're just supposed to do....

"Well I take care o' my kids..."
"You supposed to take care o' yo' kids muthafuka!"

KeithAFC

discus wrote: »

The mark of a tool. And I say that as a very west brit Dubliner and British Army recruit. I'll agree with some of what you say, but you're winding people up, or you're paying respects to an all out murderer.

I think a number of other people said RIP. Lets not turn this respectable thread into a shouting match. I just said RIP. Just like Republicans would have said RIP when Martin Meehan passed away or when Gerry Adams or Mcguinness do.

Dudess

KeithAFC wrote: »

I think a number of other people said RIP. Lets not turn this respectable thread into a shouting match. I just said RIP. Just like Republicans would have said RIP when Martin Meehan passed away or when Gerry Adams or Mcguinness do.

And they'd be rightly told they're paying respects to murderers too.

Your faux innocent "I'm just giving my opinion" stuff doesn't fool people any more - you're on a wind-up here. And a number of us are aware of your presence on another website as an out and out sectarian bigot who posts delightful, non hate-filled, if not very imaginative stuff along the lines of "Fuk you fenian bastards". Look at your triumphalist sig ffs...

discus

KeithAFC wrote: »

I think a number of other people said RIP. Lets not turn this respectable thread into a shouting match. I just said RIP. Just like Republicans would have said RIP when Martin Meehan passed away or when Gerry Adams or Mcguinness do.

Yeah, let them write RIP. You're my issue. You and people like you do nothing but wind up people who are as intellectually troubled as yourself, and push apart 2 groups of people who need little kindling to find reasons to hate each other further.

ejmaztec

He won't need a coat where he's going.

pragmatic1

A filthy scumbag is dead. Em. Boo hoo.

KeithAFC

And they'd be rightly told they're paying respects to murderers too.

Your faux innocent "I'm just giving my opinion" stuff doesn't fool people any more - a number of us know your presence on another website as an out and out sectarian bigot. Look at your triumphalist sig ffs...

Allow Republicans or Loyalists to have an opinion. Even people who I would assume are neither have said RIP. It really isn't a big deal. Everyone knows I am a Loyalist and a supporter of the Ulster Volunteers. Just like some people on here who are supporters of the Provisional Irish Republican Army.

Yeah, let them write RIP. You're my issue. You and people like you do nothing but wind up people who are as intellectually troubled as yourself, and push apart 2 groups of people who need little kindling to find reasons to hate each other further.

I think people are getting on just fine. I think you should respect the wishes of the some who have put RIP in this thread.

Dudess

KeithAFC wrote: »

Allow Republicans or Loyalists to have an opinion. Even people who I would assume are neither have said RIP. It really isn't a big deal. Everyone knows I am a Loyalist and a supporter of the Ulster Volunteers. Just like some people on here who are supporters of the Provisional Irish Republican Army.

You can keep churning out the "There are republicans posting here too" line, it doesn't mitigate the fact that you back organised murder, as do they.

I think people are getting on just fine. I think you should respect the wishes of the some who have put RIP in this thread.

Call me fussy, but I don't think the wishes of people who wish to pay respects to a man who killed innocent people should be respected.

KeithAFC

Dudess wrote: »

You can keep churning out the "There are republicans posting here too" line, it doesn't mitigate the fact that you back organised murder, as do they.

Call me fussy, but I don't think the wishes of people who wish to pay respects to a man who killed innocent people should be respected.

Fair enough. I respect your view.

MagicSean

When's the spitting on the grave ceremony? I might attend.

MagicSean

KeithAFC wrote: »

Fair enough. I respect your view.

No you don't.

Mike 1972

Dudess wrote: »

In fairness, AH's resident LVF murder squad supporter

Not that it matters a great deal to anyone (apart from him) but are you sure you have the right Judean faction ?

Sunnyisland

Dudess wrote: »

Explanation, but not an excuse for murdering.


I rarely use this little bastard, but... :rolleyes:

Cop on. Have some respect for his victims. I'm sure they would be only chuffed to see someone writing "Rest in peace" re Gusty Spence - ditto for IRA victims when Adams/McGuinness die.

I echo others: good to see Spence and all the others, on both sides, change tack, but you don't just "forget about the past" when it comes to orchestrated murder.

It's great to be forgiving/progressive, but no need to be THAT forgiving/progressive...

I have lots of respect for his victims my aunty being one of them, killed in the dublin bombings,so i don't need you to tell me about victims,The man seen his errors of his ways and did his own best to get more people in to the political system and away from violence,may he rest in peace and his victims.

Einhard

realies wrote: »

I have lots of respect for his victims my aunty being one of them, killed in the dublin bombings,so i don't need you to tell me about victims,The man seen his errors of his ways and did his own best to get more people in to the political system and away from violence,may he rest in peace and his victims.

According to your own opening post, he only renounced violence because he realised it was counter-productive. So, he didn't stop murdering people like your aunt because of any innate morality, but because he realised it wouldn't achieve his goals. RIP my fooking arse.

Wolfe Tone

We all would have been better off if he was never born.

And as for keith, well he supports the UVF and their murder campains. Sure, if pressed he will condemn the shankhill butchers, but it rings hollow. Even today he still supports them when they start riots or try to start a pogrom in east belfast against a nationalist community.

So the last thing he did was say that they wont give up their weapons... Yeah, I guess you never know when you might have to kill random catholics again.

The provos and their weapons are gone, these scumbags should do the same, everyone is trying to move on, descending en mass on a nationalist community with petrol bombs is the type of thing which can kick off the troubles again. Zero arrests over that, I wonder how many nationalists lost faith in the PSNI over that.

Peep O'Day

Richard Hillman wrote: »

I look forward to hearing Martin McGuinness's Presidential supporters compare this man to Nelson Mandela as well.

And thus the whataboutery begins... :rolleyes:

KeithAFC

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

We all would have been better off if he was never born.

And as for keith, well he supports the UVF and their murder campains. Sure, if pressed he will condemn the shankhill butchers, but it rings hollow. Even today he still supports them when they start riots or try to start a pogrom in east belfast against a nationalist community.

So the last thing he did was say that they wont give up their weapons... Yeah, I guess you never know when you might have to kill random catholics again.

The provos and their weapons are gone, these scumbags should do the same, everyone is trying to move on, descending en mass on a nationalist community with petrol bombs is the type of thing which can kick off the troubles again. Zero arrests over that, I wonder how many nationalists lost faith in the PSNI over that.

I think many would disagree that the Provo weapons are gone. The dissidents who left them seem to have picked up a good lot of weapons from them. They haven't gone away either.

Wolfe Tone

Well keith, the aul independant monitoring comission says the weapons are all gone.

KeithAFC

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Well keith, the aul independant monitoring comission says the weapons are all gone.

Do you really think the PIRA and UVF and UDA give all the weapons away? Even I am sceptical of that.

Mardy Bum

The words of DeAngelo Barksdale comes to mind for a lad like this and rings through for McGuiness' present situation as well.

'He's saying that the past is always with us. Where we come from, what we go through, how we go thought it all this **** matters. Like at the end of the book, ya know, boats and tides and all. It's like you can change up, right, you can say your somebody new, you can give yourself a whole new story. But, what came first is who you really are and what happened before is what really happened. It don't matter that some fool say he different cuz the things that make you different is what you really do, what u really go through.'

They can both try all the revisionism they want but what it comes down to is the past is always the past and those moments cannot be re-written.

steddyeddy

stovelid wrote: »

I'll be completely honest here too: the provos are hard enough to stomach but the valedictory nonsense that emenates from loyalism on occasions such as this - po-faced rhetoric about ending military campaigns as if they actually dared to face troops instead of largely confining themselves to butchering innocent people.

Thats actually a good point over 1000 catholics were killed based on religion. Slightly over a hundred of them were Ira. They didnt protect the communites from the ira, strengthen the union or any other ideal. They simply expressed their bigotry in terms of violence.

Sunnyisland

The reason I posted this thread was there was a war going on in N Ireland,maybe not a conventional war but a war never the less and this man played a huge part in it, at first prolonging it and then by helping ending it.He might not be everyone's cup of tea & certainly not mine but he was a huge influence and icon to the loyalist community,Also I would be watching who attends the funeral from the political divide.

fonecrusher1

Yawn...

Killer Pigeon

May he rest in peace...
... in a graveyard that will, at some point, be inside an all-Ireland republic.

Penfailed

For those that don't know the history - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-15051927
"When Gusty Spence was given the task of announcing the loyalist ceasefires in 1994, there was a symmetry to his role.
In the 1960s, he had been a founding father of the modern UVF, an organisation which would subsequently murder hundreds of people, mainly innocent Catholic civilians.
Almost three decades later, he sat before the world's media, telling them that the UVF and another loyalist organisation, the Ulster Defence Association, were going on ceasefire in response to the IRA's cessation.
In his statement, he said that loyalists wished to express their "abject and true remorse" for their role in the Troubles.
A man who shared responsibility for starting the conflict was now taking a lead role in the first steps towards its conclusion.


Gusty Spence was born in 1933 in the loyalist heartland of the Shankill Road.
His father had been a member of the first incarnation of the UVF, who were formed to fight Home Rule and whose members would subsequently make an enormous contribution in the First World War.
Spence himself joined the military police before leaving due to ill-health in 1961.

His account of how he became involved with the UVF begins in 1965 when he claimed to have been approached by two men, one of whom was an Ulster Unionist Party member of the Stormont parliament.
He said they told him the UVF was to be re-established and that they wanted him, because of his military experience, to play a role in it.
Despite the organisation's claims of having declared war on the IRA, it was Catholic civilians who bore the brunt of its violence.
In June 1966, 28-year-old John Scullion became the first victim of the modern Troubles, when he was shot by the UVF in the Falls Road area.
Spence was one of three men arrested in connection with the killing but the charges were dropped

Later the same year, 18-year Peter Ward, a Catholic barman, went for a drink in a pub on the Shankill Road - not an unusual course of action in the days before the Troubles fully flared.
Spence, who was in the bar and overheard Peter Ward's conversation, was sentenced to life for shooting him dead as he left.
He spent the next 18 years in prison, apart from a brief hiatus in 1972 when he escaped after being given parole to attend his daughter's wedding.
During his four months on the run, he donned dark sunglasses to give a statement to the media as the UVF's commanding officer.
Once recaptured and back in prison, Spence is described as having realised that the Troubles would eventually have to end with a political settlement.
He encouraged his fellow UVF prisoners to think similarly and following his release from prison due to ill-health in 1984, he was credited with having a significant influence on the nascent political wing of the UVF, the Progressive Unionist Party.
Its charismatic leader David Ervine would later hold Spence up as his role model, as someone who was capable of having a more strategic vision of where loyalism was headed.
As part of that process, he re-examined his own identity, learning the Irish language and defining himself as an Ulster Irishman who was also British

Despite the dialogue within loyalism, the UVF continued its campaign of sectarian violence until 1994 when Spence issued the historic statement on behalf of the so-called Combined Loyalist Military Command.
Members of the UVF continued to be involved in sporadic violence in subsequent years but Spence's support of the peace process was unwavering.
When the organisation announced in 2007 that it was decommissioning its weapons and would exist only as a civilianised organisation, Spence was again called upon to make the landmark statement.
As late as 2010, when members of the UVF were blamed for murdering a man near Spence's childhood home on the Shankill Road, he again intervened, telling the BBC that the organisation should disband once and for all.
It was his last contribution in an era which he had helped to define."