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Child Item

Former UVF leader Gusty Spence dies

Sunnyisland

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0925/spenceg.html

Former Ulster Volunteer Force leader Gusty Spence has died aged 78.
Spence was given a life sentence after the UVF murdered 18-year-old Catholic Peter Ward and wounded two other people as they left a pub on Malvern Street in Belfast in 1966.
He served 18 years.
He became heavily involved in politics and was a key figure in the Progressive Unionist Party alongside figures like the late David Ervine.
On 3 May he read out the statement by the UVF announcing that it would keep its weapons but put them beyond the reach of ordinary members.

My own opinion of the man is that he started out with the Gun earlier on in his life he then seen it as futile and got involved in politics at first while in long kesh talking to official Ira members,He also "groomed" David irvine and billy hutchinson, In 1977 he publicly condemned the use of violence for political gain, on the grounds that it was counter-productive. May he rest in peace.

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Delighted for him.

Penfailed

realies wrote: »

May he rest in peace.

Indeed.

tallaghtmick

Did he **** Iris too?

billybudd

To late to run for the presidency so.

Einhard

realies wrote: »

In 1977 he publicly condemned the use of violence for political gain, on the grounds that it was counter-productive.

So not because it was, ummm, morally wrong to murder people? Just counter-productive. Right.

May he rest in peace.

As with his victims.

Richard Hillman

I look forward to hearing Martin McGuinness's Presidential supporters compare this man to Nelson Mandela as well.

steddyeddy

I welcome any politician who abandoned violence in place of reconcilliation and he was one of them. Although he was a bigot he moved away from more backward views later in life.

Einhard

steddyeddy wrote: »

I welcome any politician who abandoned violence in place of reconcilliation and he was one of them. Although he was a bigot he moved away from more backward views later in life.

I welcome anyone who didn't murder civilians in the pursuit of their cause.

Seriously, WTF is wrong with people? It's as if taking up, and then renouncing murder as a way of life, is somehow morally superior than never taking up the gun in the first place. If these guys get all this credit for deciding to stop murdering people, surely every other politician (every other person) should be exulted for never having stooped to murder in the first place?

"Vote for Michael D. He never murdered/sanctioned the murder of innocent civilians!"

Has a nice ring to it.

steddyeddy

Einhard wrote: »

I welcome anyone who didn't murder civilians in the pursuit of their cause.

Seriously, WTF is wrong with people? It's as if taking up, and then renouncing murder as a way of life, is somehow morally superior than never taking up the gun in the first place. If these guys get all this credit for deciding to stop murdering people, surely every other politician (every other person) should be exulted for never having stooped to murder in the first place?

Well murder is wrong Im not denying that I just mean Im glad he stopped rather than carry on. Its my way of saying he was the best of a bad bunch.

Einhard

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well murder is wrong Im not denying that I just mean Im glad he stopped rather than carry on. Its my way of saying he was the best of a bad bunch.

Well that's fair enough. It's just that many people see the renunciation of violence as some great virtue, and something to be celebrated. I'd rather celebrate those who didn't turn to murder. I welcome the fact that people have turned their back on the gun, but FFS, let's stop fawning over them because they belatedly located some sense of morality.

Mike 1972

Einhard wrote: »

Seriously, WTF is wrong with people? It's as if taking up, and then renouncing murder as a way of life, is somehow morally superior than never taking up the gun in the first place. If these guys get all this credit for deciding to stop murdering people, surely every other politician (every other person) should be exulted for never having stooped to murder in the first place?.

Yup apparently "I havent killed anyone" < "I havent killed anyone this week"

jimdeans

The violence and bigotry seen in some NI people is a result of their environment and upbringing. Any of us could have ended up as a rageing die-hard loyalist, given the right environment. I daresay some could have ended up murderers.

In many ways it's harder to go back on all of that and renounce it, then it is to be a middle class Dub who's just always grown up knowing that terrorism is wrong.

Fair play to him for embracing the political way over the violent way eventually. May he RIP.

stovelid

I'm glad that he played such a role in bringing the UVF to ceasefire in the same way I'm glad McGuinness and Adams did for the IRA. There was courage and conviction to do this but I'm not inclined to forget that Spence merely helped end a murder campaign he himself originally engineered; or that thousands of people in the North pursued their political beliefs without shooting dead, say, a couple of innocent catholic barmen like Spence did. And history unfortunately often does not valorize those people that quietly had the moral courage not to kill the innocent.

Phill Ewinn

RIH

Einhard

jimdeans wrote: »

The violence and bigotry seen in some NI people is a result of their environment and upbringing. Any of us could have ended up as a rageing die-hard loyalist, given the right environment. I daresay some could have ended up murderers.

And if they did end up murderers, then they'd deserve to be condemned.

I can only imagine the reaction were I to bring up the home environment of some notorious killer as some form of justification for his killings. I'd be laughed out of it. And yet, when it comes to the North, we get it every day. "I murdered innocent people because of the environment in which I was rasied...". Hmmm, is that you Gusty or John Wayne Gacy?

In many ways it's harder to go back on all of that and renounce it, then it is to be a middle class Dub who's just always grown up knowing that terrorism is wrong.

I don't think terrorism is always wrong. Most people don't see the world in such black and white terms. However, I do think that terrorism, when it deliberately targets innocent civilians is always wrong.

Fair play to him for embracing the political way over the violent way eventually. May he RIP.

Eventually being the operative word.

In another way- Fair play to him. He stopped murdering and sanctioning the murder of teenagers eventually. Hip hip...

Dudess

jimdeans wrote: »

The violence and bigotry seen in some NI people is a result of their environment and upbringing. Any of us could have ended up as a rageing die-hard loyalist, given the right environment. I daresay some could have ended up murderers.

Explanation, but not an excuse for murdering.

realies wrote: »

May he rest in peace.

May he RIP.

I rarely use this little bastard, but... :rolleyes:

Cop on. Have some respect for his victims. I'm sure they would be only chuffed to see someone writing "Rest in peace" re Gusty Spence - ditto for IRA victims when Adams/McGuinness die.

I echo others: good to see Spence and all the others, on both sides, change tack, but you don't just "forget about the past" when it comes to orchestrated murder.

It's great to be forgiving/progressive, but no need to be THAT forgiving/progressive...

stovelid

I'll be completely honest here too: the provos are hard enough to stomach but the valedictory nonsense that emenates from loyalism on occasions such as this - po-faced rhetoric about ending military campaigns as if they actually dared to face troops instead of largely confining themselves to butchering innocent people.

naldface

stovelid wrote: »

I'm glad that he played such a role in bringing the UVF to ceasefire in the same way I'm glad McGuinness and Adams did for the IRA. There was courage and conviction to do this but I'm not inclined to forget that Spence merely helped end a murder campaign he himself originally engineered; or that thousands of people in the North pursued their political beliefs without shooting dead, say, a couple of innocent catholic barmen like Spence did. And history unfortunately often does not valorize those people that quietly had the moral courage not to kill the innocent.

Oh you see, this is quite the learning experience. Its kind of like that omegle website. I think the users are randomly swapped out ever so often though

stovelid

naldface wrote: »

stovelid wrote: »

I'm glad that he played such a role in bringing the UVF to ceasefire in the same way I'm glad McGuinness and Adams did for the IRA. There was courage and conviction to do this but I'm not inclined to forget that Spence merely helped end a murder campaign he himself originally engineered; or that thousands of people in the North pursued their political beliefs without shooting dead, say, a couple of innocent catholic barmen like Spence did. And history unfortunately often does not valorize those people that quietly had the moral courage not to kill the innocent.

Oh you see, this is quite the learning experience. Its kind of like that omegle website. I think the users are randomly swapped out ever so often though

Typical horse**** response: heavy on the usual playground categorisation and emotional rhetoric but with zero substance.

naldface

stovelid wrote: »

Typical horse**** response: heavy on the usual playground categorisation and emotional rhetoric but with zero substance.

I hope not, Metal is the absolute worst type of music, I don't want everything on this world to be brutal.

KeithAFC

RIP.

biko

Oh, give my head peace

discus

KeithAFC wrote: »

RIP.

The mark of a tool. And I say that as a very west brit Dubliner and British Army recruit. I'll agree with some of what you say, but you're winding people up, or you're paying respects to an all out murderer.

Dudess

In fairness, AH's resident LVF murder squad supporter isn't the only one who said "RIP" - worse to read it from people who aren't him tbh...

KeithAFC wrote: »

RIP.

Yet you bang on about Sinn Féin being evil? Be consistent there dude. A murderer is a murderer is a murderer...

PK2008

Einhard wrote: »

I welcome anyone who didn't murder civilians in the pursuit of their cause.

Seriously, WTF is wrong with people? It's as if taking up, and then renouncing murder as a way of life, is somehow morally superior than never taking up the gun in the first place. If these guys get all this credit for deciding to stop murdering people, surely every other politician (every other person) should be exulted for never having stooped to murder in the first place?

"Vote for Michael D. He never murdered/sanctioned the murder of innocent civilians!"

Has a nice ring to it.

Hahaha, that reminds of this classic bit by Chris Rock about looking for credit for s**t you're just supposed to do....

Dudess

PK2008 wrote: »

Hahaha, that reminds of this classic bit by Chris Rock about looking for credit for s**t you're just supposed to do....

"Well I take care o' my kids..."
"You supposed to take care o' yo' kids muthafuka!"

KeithAFC

discus wrote: »

The mark of a tool. And I say that as a very west brit Dubliner and British Army recruit. I'll agree with some of what you say, but you're winding people up, or you're paying respects to an all out murderer.

I think a number of other people said RIP. Lets not turn this respectable thread into a shouting match. I just said RIP. Just like Republicans would have said RIP when Martin Meehan passed away or when Gerry Adams or Mcguinness do.

Dudess

KeithAFC wrote: »

I think a number of other people said RIP. Lets not turn this respectable thread into a shouting match. I just said RIP. Just like Republicans would have said RIP when Martin Meehan passed away or when Gerry Adams or Mcguinness do.

And they'd be rightly told they're paying respects to murderers too.

Your faux innocent "I'm just giving my opinion" stuff doesn't fool people any more - you're on a wind-up here. And a number of us are aware of your presence on another website as an out and out sectarian bigot who posts delightful, non hate-filled, if not very imaginative stuff along the lines of "Fuk you fenian bastards". Look at your triumphalist sig ffs...

discus

KeithAFC wrote: »

I think a number of other people said RIP. Lets not turn this respectable thread into a shouting match. I just said RIP. Just like Republicans would have said RIP when Martin Meehan passed away or when Gerry Adams or Mcguinness do.

Yeah, let them write RIP. You're my issue. You and people like you do nothing but wind up people who are as intellectually troubled as yourself, and push apart 2 groups of people who need little kindling to find reasons to hate each other further.

ejmaztec

He won't need a coat where he's going.