Ireland, 2010-2011: who's emigrating, and who's immigrating?

Seanchai

This article in yesterday's Irish Times surprisingly didn't get a mention here given the topic: Emigration rate jumps by nearly half to 40,000

A closer reading, however, is more informative:

Emigration rate jumps by nearly half to 40,000

MORE THAN 40,000 Irish people emigrated in the year to April, a sharp rise of 45 per cent on the previous 12 months.

Latest migration figures from the Central Statistics Office (CSO) show the number of Irish nationals who left was up from 27,700 to 40,200.

Overall emigration was up by 16.9 per cent to 76,400, with Irish nationals making up 53 per cent of that total. This was an increase of 11,100 on the previous 12 months to April 2010.

Emigration among foreign nationals fell for the second year in a row. Nationals from the “EU12” (the 10 accession states, Bulgaria and Romania) accounted for nearly 20 per cent of emigrants.

More than twice as many men and women of all nationalities left in the year to April than did in the same period in 2006. A total of 37,800 women and 38,700 men emigrated in the survey period.

Emigration to the UK and the rest of the world showed large increases compared to the previous period.

Some 18,900 people (54 per cent of them men) went to the UK in the 12 months to April.

The total numbers going to the UK were up 31 per cent on the previous 12-month period.

Emigration to the USA in the year rose by 57 per cent from 2,800 to 4,400. A total of 2,400 of those were male.

Some 30,100 people - almost evenly split between male and female - left to go to “rest of the world” countries (excluding the EU and USA).

This was a rise of 29 per cent on the 12 months up to April of last year.

The 25-44 age group accounted for the highest number of emigrants, with about 34,400 in that group leaving the State.

Some 33,100 in the 15-24 age group emigrated, with a further 2,200 in the 45-64 age group and 5,000 people aged 65 and over.

Most of the men who left the country were aged 15-44. About 18,300 fell into the 25-44 age bracket, while 15,000 were aged 15-24. Of the women leaving, most fell into the younger 15-24 group. Some 18,100 in this bracket left, compared to 16,100 in the 25-44 age group.

The total number of immigrants fell from 107,800 in 2006 to 42,300 in the 12 months to last April last.

Some 20,100 men immigrated, compared to three times that number in 2006.

Female immigration fell from 47,500 in 2006 to 22,300.

Of the 42,300 people who immigrated to Ireland, over 48 per cent (20,400) were in the 25-44 age group, with a further 9,200 coming from the 15-24 bracket.

The CSO said net outward migration was broadly the same as in the previous 12-month period, at 34,100 and 34,500 respectively. But net outward migration among Irish nationals increased from 14,400 in April 2010 to 23,100 in April 2011.

The natural increase in the population continued to be “very strong”, the CSO said.

There were 75,100 births in the 12 months to April this year, with 27,400 deaths.

This results in a natural increase of 47,700, or just over 1 per cent of the population.

“The combined effect of strong natural increase and negative net migration resulted in a relatively small increase in the overall population of 13,600, bringing the population estimate to 4.48 million in April 2011,” the CSO said.

---

I'm open to correction but is the general picture here that there has been a rise to 40,200 in Irish citizens emigrating, a decline to 36,200 in foreign nationals emigrating, while some 42,300 people immigrated to Ireland in the same period? If this is so, why is Ireland not good enough for many Irish people but still good enough to keep many foreign nationals here, and indeed attracting many in the past year?
Leaving aside the reality that there'll always be people immigrating to Ireland, the numbers are much more than I had expected given that so many people whom I know have had no choice but to leave Ireland. Can anybody add further light to these CSO figures?

mikemac

Seanchai wrote: »

I'm open to correction but is the general picture here that there has been a rise to 40,200 in Irish citizens emigrating,

Yes

Seanchai wrote: »

a decline to 36,200 in foreign nationals emigrating,

It's declining because a lot the workers who came here have already left. So of course the rate is declining, it cannot keep rising.

Have you not seen the AH threads about the Polish wimmins gone

Seanchai wrote: »

while some 42,300 people immigrated to Ireland in the same period?

Would have been a far better article if they broke down this figure.

How many are non-EU students paying heavily for their education.
How many are attending English language schools
And I suppose how many are Irish people back from a year traveling abroad

Lord TSC

My guess is that people who spent a lot of time getting qualified in a specific field, and thus have potential as high earners, are leaving to seek out jobs relevant to their studies, while the foreign nationals coming in are willing to take the ****** jobs and lead lives which we'd consider "rough" but they'd consider way better than the potential ones they had back home.

Saila

how do they know they are emmigrating and not just going on a gap year after college though

k.p.h

On a sad note all my mates are after emigrating to Australia or the UK, my brother is their 3 years and my sister is heading after X-mas. Pretty much just me and missus here now.

mickydoomsux

Saila wrote: »

how do they know they are emmigrating and not just going on a gap year after college though

Yeah, in the good times young people used to "go traveling".

Now they're going off on the coffin-planes because the country is "dead" and they have no prospects :rolleyes:

Executive Steve

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

My guess is that people who spent a lot of time getting qualified in a specific field, and thus have potential as high earners, are leaving to seek out jobs relevant to their studies, while the foreign nationals coming in are willing to take the ****** jobs and lead lives which we'd consider "rough" but they'd consider way better than the potential ones they had back home.

You're joking right? As a matter of interest how many Irish people do you think work in the EU headquarters of large multinational corporations - Microsoft, Google, Facebook, Hertz etc?

Here's a hint - bugger all Irish people work there because Irish people don't speak foreign languages.

I' Irish, but I speak several languages fluently enough to find employment in non-English speaking jobs, and you'd be amazed at how few Irish people I've actually worked alongside over the years.

It's really not like every single immigrant here is rolling off a ryanair flight and hoping to find a job cleaning toilets...

alexjk

In fact, Microsoft, Google and Facebook don't really hire Irish people for the multi lingual jobs instead they import their staff. Tried them all and they said no, moved to France and work in a multi-national here. There's several Irish people in the company as well.

Ponster

I'm going to do my best to upset the stats and after 13 years away (USA and France) I'm planning on moving back to Ireland.

Sounds like it's going to be a ghost-town by the time I get there

ejmaztec

Ponster wrote: »

I'm going to do my best to upset the stats and after 13 years away (USA and France) I'm planning on moving back to Ireland.

Sounds like it's going to be a ghost-town by the time I get there

Watch out for the zombies.

ssbob

It is hugely noticeable when you look at local GAA/Soccer/Rugby teams the effect of mass emmigration. I know alot of people are going on gap years but there does seem to be a real lack of decent employment for the youth of today.

onlyrocknroll

k.p.h wrote: »

On a sad note all my mates are after emigrating to Australia or the UK, my brother is their 3 years and my sister is heading after X-mas. Pretty much just me and missus here now.

I can empathise. Each bloody going away party gets smaller.

Lord TSC

Executive Steve wrote: »

You're joking right? As a matter of interest how many Irish people do you think work in the EU headquarters of large multinational corporations - Microsoft, Google, Facebook, Hertz etc?

Here's a hint - bugger all Irish people work there because Irish people don't speak foreign languages.

I' Irish, but I speak several languages fluently enough to find employment in non-English speaking jobs, and you'd be amazed at how few Irish people I've actually worked alongside over the years.

It's really not like every single immigrant here is rolling off a ryanair flight and hoping to find a job cleaning toilets...

I'm not sure...is your point Irish people aren't emigrating to find jobs or that not all immigrants are taking bad jobs?

I think its the latter and to an extent, I agree. I'm not saying all foreigners are going into bad jobs; just that "bad" jobs are being taken by foreigners as the Irish youth leave the country. You're right, there are many immigrants working in high end areas as well, but I never said otherwise.

ssbob

If you have the choice of working in a sh1t job here or do a sh1t job in Australia assuming you have no ties you are going to take the latter option for a year or so anyway!

Brianderunner

Quick question, how do they know the figures of where people are going? I emmigrated to the UK last December and nobody "official" knew i was going or where i was going. I imagine this is the case for thousands of others.

Saila

people should only be included in these stats if they have been away longer than a working holiday visa for the country they went to, and thats a year Id say, so anyone who has 'emigrated' shouldnt be included till at least 18 months after they leave ireland

astonaidan

ssbob wrote: »

It is hugely noticeable when you look at local GAA/Soccer/Rugby teams the effect of mass emmigration. I know alot of people are going on gap years but there does seem to be a real lack of decent employment for the youth of today.

Yeah I get that Myself and my friend are leaving soon and were the first choice goalies for our teams, granted in my case its possibly cause no 1 else plays their but still

Brianderunner

Saila wrote: »

people should only be included in these stats if they have been away longer than a working holiday visa for the country they went to, and thats a year Id say, so anyone who has 'emigrated' shouldnt be included till at least 18 months after they leave ireland

What about the UK? Isnt the time we (irish nationals) can spend there unlimited?

OneArt

Seanchai wrote: »

If this is so, why is Ireland not good enough for many Irish people but still good enough to keep many foreign nationals here, and indeed attracting many in the past year?

Some foreign nationals are coming from countries with much lower living standards than Ireland, a lot of Irish people are going to countries with higher ones.

My family came over from South Africa and in comparison Ireland is a much better place to live. I left recently for Germany because it is FAR superior to Ireland in terms of health service, transport and the fact that there is a huge job market for teaching English here (very few places require a degree). So here I can teach English and do a degree, the fees for which are nowhere near even the amount of the Irish registration fee.

Economic reasons were just other push factors, my main reason for leaving is that I just want to experience a bit more of the world. Live in a few more different countries before I "settle" if I ever choose to. Although it's a huge factor nowadays there are plenty of other reasons why someone would emigrate besides economic.

Lord TSC

A story which kind of relates to this and the point I made earlier....

My Dad had a doctor in his taxi yesterday. The guy was from an African country (can't remember which one, sorry) and is living in what I would consider a rougher area of Drogheda. Not a place I'd be happy living in anyway. But he things its amazing. He has a one-bedroom appartment and he says its twice as big as the house he grew up in which also housed four others. He thinks he's in paradise despite the location being one looked down on by many people in the locality.

Point is there's a lot of people who immigrate who are happy to live in conditions that a lot of people already here aren't.

Helix

how do they get these emigration figures? its not like you tell the government when youre leaving, so how do they know youre gone?

Helix

OneArt wrote: »

Some foreign nationals are coming from countries with much lower living standards than Ireland, a lot of Irish people are going to countries with higher ones.

My family came over from South Africa and in comparison Ireland is a much better place to live. I left recently for Germany because it is FAR superior to Ireland in terms of health service, transport and the fact that there is a huge job market for teaching English here (very few places require a degree). So here I can teach English and do a degree, the fees for which are nowhere near even the amount of the Irish registration fee.

Economic reasons were just other push factors, my main reason for leaving is that I just want to experience a bit more of the world. Live in a few more different countries before I "settle" if I ever choose to. Although it's a huge factor nowadays there are plenty of other reasons why someone would emigrate besides economic.

for my future reference, is it essential to have german over there? ive always liked the idea of living in germany, they seem a decent crowd

Helix

Brianderunner wrote: »

What about the UK? Isnt the time we (irish nationals) can spend there unlimited?

the time we can spend anywhere in the eu is unlimited afaik

OneArt

Helix wrote: »

for my future reference, is it essential to have german over there? ive always liked the idea of living in germany, they seem a decent crowd

It's handy to have the basics just to get around but most can speak a bit of English. But by their standards "a bit" means being able to hold a full-blown conversation.

There are a lot of English-speaking jobs you can look for on places like Toytown Germany and from the teaching perspective I know German isn't essential. Also if you're looking for a part-time job to get yourself started Irish pubs generally don't mind if you can't speak German. I know a lot of English teachers here who only have a few words of German and have been here a long time.

HavingCrack

OneArt wrote: »

There are a lot of English-speaking jobs you can look for on places like Toytown Germany and from the teaching perspective I know German isn't essential. Also if you're looking for a part-time job to get yourself started Irish pubs generally don't mind if you can't speak German. I know a lot of English teachers here who only have a few words of German and have been here a long time.

Is it not a bit isolated if you can't really communicate with actual Germans in German though? Making friends etc. must be very difficult.

OneArt

HavingCrack wrote: »

Is it not a bit isolated if you can't really communicate with actual Germans in German though? Making friends etc. must be very difficult.

I'd say so. A lot of them having English-speaking friends as expats tend to hang out together. I tend to hang out with both English and German speaking people so I use both languages daily. What I'm saying though is that Germany is handy because you don't need much German to start you off, but I would STRONGLY advise anyone living here to make an attempt to learn it. I had seven years of German when I came here so I had no excuse, worked as a chef for a couple of months and I speak German at home because my housemate is. I'm making the effort to improve also because I do want to get into college here.

Lord TSC

Helix wrote: »

how do they get these emigration figures? its not like you tell the government when youre leaving, so how do they know youre gone?

I was told earlier that they sampled 10,000 people, asking them questions about how emmigration/immigration has affected them, and then mulitpled the number accordingly, as is standard practice in this sort of study.

Solnskaya

I get breakfast most mornings in a well known restaurant that used to be packed with construction workers and all sorts of people heading to their jobs. Nowadays it's still packed, but the people there are the same few "strong" business people that were well to do before the boom and still are. An awful lot of the "nama" faces are there to be seen, including the ones that we read about in the papers as being totally broke. Their mercs and landcruisers still look pretty shiny in the car-park.:rolleyes: But, the young Irish workers are notable by their absence, not totally, but a lot are either gone abroad, or too broke to eat out. A lot of the best and brightest have headed off, and it's a shame. but it also means less competition. every cloud and all that...

Sonnenblumen

Helix wrote: »

the time we can spend anywhere in the eu is unlimited afaik

Not if you're Irish and in a caravan:eek:

Mike 1972

Are people who move between Northern Ireland and the Republic (or vice versa) counted ?

Brianderunner wrote: »

Quick question, how do they know the figures of where people are going? I emmigrated to the UK last December and nobody "official" knew i was going or where i was going. I imagine this is the case for thousands of others.

Surely when you moved to the UK you had to apply for a National Insurance number during which you would have been asked what country/ies you lived in previously and what was your PPS/RSI/equivalent number there ?

mandrake04

k.p.h wrote: »

On a sad note all my mates are after emigrating to Australia or the UK, my brother is their 3 years and my sister is heading after X-mas. Pretty much just me and missus here now.

Only about 3000 Irish people emigrate to Australia every year, last year (1 July 2010-30th June 2011) Ireland made it into the 10th place with a total of 3700 Irish citizens migrating to Australia. (compared to 3200 & 2900 in the previous 2 years)

https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/

Most young Irish people (17000 per year) go on a 417 Working Holiday Visa and as the name suggests its just a holiday.

Reality is about 80% will return home, the other's are often sponsored on subclass 457 by employers for up to 4 years.

The bulk of Irish migrants shown in the stats are people who like myself done a few years on the 457 and then applied for migration.

mandrake04

ssbob wrote: »

If you have the choice of working in a sh1t job here or do a sh1t job in Australia assuming you have no ties you are going to take the latter option for a year or so anyway!

Probably at most for a year or maybe 2, a sh!t job wont keep in Australia unless you go illegal.

4Sheets

This well hidden on the news...wasnt sure of the fiqures so I searched RTE.Ive definately noticed an increase in non natives in the last year around here..I reckon these fiqures are to the low end of the guesstimates.I alluded to Facebook in a previous post and well I guess we can grumble but they are putting money into the economy.
Also an Indian It company 80 jobs today...I expect the abilty to speak Indian will be a requirement.:rolleyes:
But the majority of people outside the city centre are far from Facebook emploee..
I think people can stay and work here but not claim dole or gain citzenship except by Birth.
They come seeking refuge and they are fairly well looked after I guess..certainly many Irish familes have less.But Refugee is not what they want they want to live here..just how many taxi jobs are out there.42,000 in a year when theres barely a job to be found

OneArt

4Sheets wrote: »

I expect the abilty to speak Indian will be a requirement.

If only there were such a language as India it'd probably make living there a lot simpler!

HavingCrack

4Sheets wrote: »

I think people can stay and work here but not claim dole or gain citzenship except by Birth.
/QUOTE]

Citizenship can either be gained via birth in Ireland, having an Irish citizen as a parent or grandparent, marriage to an Irish citizen or via naturalisation (usually a minimum of 5 years residency before this can be considered). If people have been here for more than 5 years they're entitled to apply for citizenship as far as I know.

watna

Ponster wrote: »

I'm going to do my best to upset the stats and after 13 years away (USA and France) I'm planning on moving back to Ireland.

Sounds like it's going to be a ghost-town by the time I get there

Me too - After almost four years away we're planning on heading back. We're hoping it could be early 2012 but if not, by the end of 2012 we'll be back in Ireland, depending on my OH's job situation.

I have a good job here so it's a hard choice but I was never the kind of person to move away permanently.

Our cat is coming back with us too - will he count as an immigration statistic? He likes to eat mice so he'd make a positive contribution to society!

daithimacgroin

I'm also on my back after many years abroad. Slightly worried about not being eligible for JSA if I can't find a job....

Has anyone else come back recently and passed habitual residence requirements?

Google Gold

HavingCrack wrote: »

4Sheets wrote: »

I think people can stay and work here but not claim dole or gain citzenship except by Birth.
/QUOTE]

Citizenship can either be gained via birth in Ireland, having an Irish citizen as a parent or grandparent, marriage to an Irish citizen or via naturalisation (usually a minimum of 5 years residency before this can be considered). If people have been here for more than 5 years they're entitled to apply for citizenship as far as I know.

Hey ,
4sheets was making his view of how things should be. Obviously under law his view is not tolerated in Ireland,
I wonder if there was a poll done to tell how many people believe the non-Irish should be granted full time residency and marked as Irish under the current system would the results contradict the law. Would it make a difference if a poll was done? Why should it do. Don't Indians for instance have rights to residency.Just like if the Irish have rights to be lets say German.
Is it not racist for the Germans to say Irish can not be German's. So is it not racist for the Irish to say Indian's cant be Irish?
See 4sheets who knows how many people agree for that to is hidden from the new's, but don't be surprised if not many people agree with you.

Jess16

It's mostly highly skilled graduates who are going abroad and mainly for two reasons: 1. To reach the full earning potential they can't realise here and 2. Because living abroad for a period before settling down has become a requisite of modern living.

Also, the massive insult that is the Internship Scheme offers little incentive to stay and plenty of reasons to go.

filthymcnasty

Options as I see it for us unemployed Irish with average-ish qualifications wishing to emigrate long term:
UK no visa restriction
EU as per above
Oz/NZ/Canada one year holiday visa, possible extra year extension
US non-runner.

Back in the fun years 12000 plus one year working holiday visas issued to Irish folk alone for Oz.
But many come back so not a true reflection of emigration versus a year out.

One year WHVs have clouded the true figure of long term emigration from Ireland.

So is current emigration a one /two year format because of the many visa restrictions,
i.e a year two in say, Oz; then a year in NZ then Canada then head back and try the next thing? Or have many managed to organise permanent visas.

philologos

Brianderunner wrote: »

Quick question, how do they know the figures of where people are going? I emmigrated to the UK last December and nobody "official" knew i was going or where i was going. I imagine this is the case for thousands of others.

Did they not ask for your PPS number at your National Insurance proof-of-identity interview?

Electric Sheep

Helix wrote: »

for my future reference, is it essential to have german over there? ive always liked the idea of living in germany, they seem a decent crowd

That you are even asking that question speaks volumes about the Irish attitude.

Not sure if im in that figure.. i basically disappeared as far as the government is concerned. All they know is I stopped paying prsi and got a one ticket out of there. No official contact with any other government since.

Brianderunner

philologos wrote: »

Did they not ask for your PPS number at your National Insurance proof-of-identity interview?

The company sorted the NI for me (had a job before i moved) and no they didnt ask me for my pps number IIRC.

As another poster said these figures are based on a representative sample which answers my original question about how these figures are calculated.

4zn76tysfajdxp

Deleted User wrote: »

Not sure if im in that figure.. i basically disappeared as far as the government is concerned. All they know is I stopped paying prsi and got a one ticket out of there. No official contact with any other government since.

Sounds pretty sweet.

jeckle

philologos wrote: »

Did they not ask for your PPS number at your National Insurance proof-of-identity interview?

As far as I know for proof of identity purposes a passport or birth cert is sufficient, & would only need to supply a PPS number if you were claiming unemployment/disability benefit or, down the line, UK state pension.

4Sheets

HavingCrack wrote: »

4Sheets wrote: »

I think people can stay and work here but not claim dole or gain citzenship except by Birth.
/QUOTE]

Citizenship can either be gained via birth in Ireland, having an Irish citizen as a parent or grandparent, marriage to an Irish citizen or via naturalisation (usually a minimum of 5 years residency before this can be considered). If people have been here for more than 5 years they're entitled to apply for citizenship as far as I know.

Yes that correct I chatted to a hairdresser from Mauritus,,he is here 5 years and is being naturalised..that means apparently he can bring over his entire family, brothers and sisters,and I presume any kids they have and thats what he plans to do!

coco_lola

I'm working in Dublin with no intention of emigrating. My mother however, had emigrated to Oz. Turned tables!

HavingCrack

4Sheets wrote: »

Yes that correct I chatted to a hairdresser from Mauritus,,he is here 5 years and is being naturalised..that means apparently he can bring over his entire family, brothers and sisters,and I presume any kids they have and thats what he plans to do!

Ah, that sounds incorrect to be fair. He is probably entitled to bring over his wife and children which I think is fair enough. He's been working and paying taxes here for 5 years, I think he has earned the right to have his family with him. I very much doubt that he is entitled to bring over his brothers and sisters though, he sounds a bit misguided. Ireland doesn't have any 'legal residency' equivalent to the United States as far as I know so I don't see how his siblings would be entitled to come and live here.

philologos

jeckle wrote: »

As far as I know for proof of identity purposes a passport or birth cert is sufficient, & would only need to supply a PPS number if you were claiming unemployment/disability benefit or, down the line, UK state pension.

I was asked specifically for this by the interviewer when I was applying for my National Insurance number to start working in the UK.

4Sheets

HavingCrack wrote: »

Ah, that sounds incorrect to be fair. He is probably entitled to bring over his wife and children which I think is fair enough. He's been working and paying taxes here for 5 years, I think he has earned the right to have his family with him. I very much doubt that he is entitled to bring over his brothers and sisters though, he sounds a bit misguided. Ireland doesn't have any 'legal residency' equivalent to the United States as far as I know so I don't see how his siblings would be entitled to come and live here.

Nope he wasnt married..he was talking aboutmom/dad/bros/sisters.Of course he would be entitled to have wife/kids... unless I heard him wrong.